Leadership

[Theleinsterlad]

It’s interesting to note that commentary coming from some including Dan Leavy who I would place a lot of weight on - refer to our lack of leadership as an issue. There is no doubt that when James Ryan went off our fortunes in the final took a turn for the worse.

Looking back at our 4 CC wins we had brought in serious leaders who either voiced or led from the front that got us over the line in each of their stints rocky, Thorne, Hines and fardy. Probably the most important of those was fardy in our 18 win where we had be the large favourites going in but Racing kept us tight right to the final kick. I know some will refer to Isa who was a huge leader also, but the pack is where it is really won or lost. Not having a player like rhys coming on anymore is also a knock in leadership stakes. It will be interesting to see how we try to correct this imbalance

[Observingprop123]

Ngatai strikes me as a leader. Captained the Crusaders and has the aura of a player who will sacrifice himself for the team no matter what.

In the pack I could see Doris stepping up as a leader there in the next couple of years. Already leads by the way he plays, just maybe needs to be more vocal. He also captained Ireland u20s.

[Theleinsterlad]

Ngatai strikes me as a leader. Captained the Crusaders and has the aura of a player who will sacrifice himself for the team no matter what.

In the pack I could see Doris stepping up as a leader there in the next couple of years. Already leads by the way he plays, just maybe needs to be more vocal. He also captained Ireland u20s.

He doesn’t strike as the vocal type - think that’s what has been commented if you look at each player in our pack all of them are great in their role and get their job done but you don’t ever see them being vocal

[elephantman]

It’s interesting to note that commentary coming from some including Dan Leavy who I would place a lot of weight on - refer to our lack of leadership as an issue. There is no doubt that when James Ryan went off our fortunes in the final took a turn for the worse.

Looking back at our 4 CC wins we had brought in serious leaders who either voiced or led from the front that got us over the line in each of their stints rocky, Thorne, Hines and fardy. Probably the most important of those was fardy in our 18 win where we had be the large favourites going in but Racing kept us tight right to the final kick. I know some will refer to Isa who was a huge leader also, but the pack is where it is really won or lost. Not having a player like rhys coming on anymore is also a knock in leadership stakes. It will be interesting to see how we try to correct this imbalance

Leavy himself was a huge loss in that regard. Leinster have lost three European Cup finals since 2018. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say Leinster would have won at least one of those finals if Leavy was playing.

Can’t understand why Doris is played at 6 and Conan at 8. I’d switch them. Doris is the best 8 in Ireland and Conan can do a very good job at 6. Doris just doesn’t have the same influence playing at 6.

[ronk]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

[Observingprop123]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

I'd argue the best player full stop.

[ustix]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

Under the leadership banner, seriously, CD the best 6 in Ireland?

PO'M.

[naraic]

Watching the game it felt like we were missing leadership.

So I agree with Leavy in that regard.

I mentioned on another thread something that felt semi treasonous.

If we are playing a mix and match squad we need to put pressure on players in our first choice 23 to take leadership roles.

Last year our squad had 6 main leaders.

3 players in the first choice team. The club captain who didn't feature much Sexton, our pack leader Ryan and our backline defense leader Ringrose.

In the second team we also had Ruddock Luke McGrath and Dave Kearney.

McGrath is interesting. He seems to talk a lot when he is in a non first choice team. Theres a lot of talking and marshalling the team when he is at rucks. He tells people where to lineup and he signals for people to join rucks. When he is in the first choice team he seems to shut up.

Dave is gone.

I mentioned on another thread recently that we might need to ask Ruddock not to lead when taking a mix and match side. Give people like Doris or Baird or Ngatai the captain's role. Get people that are in our first choice 23 to take on a leadership role.

[elephantman]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

Doris doesn’t influence a game to the same extent at 6. Leinster and Ireland are better with him at 8.

Conan is a very good player who I think could do a brilliant job at 6.

Really don’t understand why the Leinster management persist with not playing Doris in his best, most influential position.

[Flash Gordon]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

Under the leadership banner, seriously, CD the best 6 in Ireland?

PO'M.

You can argue the case on leadership alright (and that's important) but Doris is a much better rugby player at 8 or 6. Doris is one of the best rugby players in the world right now, POM hasn't get near a world player of the year nomination.

[FLIP]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

Under the leadership banner, seriously, CD the best 6 in Ireland?

PO'M.

You can argue the case on leadership alright (and that's important) but Doris is a much better rugby player at 8 or 6. Doris is one of the best rugby players in the world right now, POM hasn't get near a world player of the year nomination.

POMs not even the best 6 in Munster

[FtD]

Players do have to grow into these roles too though. When James Ryan first captained Ireland (and as recently as the 2022 Six Nations) people were critical of his captaincy abilities, or there was a perception he wasn't vocal enough. I do think Caelan Doris will improve in this aspect over the coming years.

The place where I'm fearful of is on the training paddock. A lot was made of the standards Sexton demanded of those around him, and I'd be curious as to who is going to set that tone now in the playing squad, if anyone. Sexton spoke before about when he came back from Racing he felt things had slipped. Coaches will obviously drive them too, and the sting of losing this season in particular will surely be fuel, but it has to come from the playing group.

[Observingprop123]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

Doris doesn’t influence a game to the same extent at 6. Leinster and Ireland are better with him at 8.

Conan is a very good player who I think could do a brilliant job at 6.

Really don’t understand why the Leinster management persist with not playing Doris in his best, most influential position.

I really really disagree with this. The amount of quick ruck ball he generates from clearing out players when he plays 6 is phenomenal. He also makes a ton of tackles as a 6. He might not carry as much but he really does play 6 to a world class level.

[elephantman]

Doris is also the best 6 in Ireland.

Doris doesn’t influence a game to the same extent at 6. Leinster and Ireland are better with him at 8.

Conan is a very good player who I think could do a brilliant job at 6.

Really don’t understand why the Leinster management persist with not playing Doris in his best, most influential position.

I really really disagree with this. The amount of quick ruck ball he generates from clearing out players when he plays 6 is phenomenal. He also makes a ton of tackles as a 6. He might not carry as much but he really does play 6 to a world class level.

Doris will play well wherever he’s picked but are you really suggesting that Doris is better at 6 than at 8?

[Observingprop123]

Doris doesn’t influence a game to the same extent at 6. Leinster and Ireland are better with him at 8.

Conan is a very good player who I think could do a brilliant job at 6.

Really don’t understand why the Leinster management persist with not playing Doris in his best, most influential position.

I really really disagree with this. The amount of quick ruck ball he generates from clearing out players when he plays 6 is phenomenal. He also makes a ton of tackles as a 6. He might not carry as much but he really does play 6 to a world class level.

Doris will play well wherever he’s picked but are you really suggesting that Doris is better at 6 than at 8?

I'm suggesting he influences the game in different ways in both positions. As a 6 it's more subtle.

[elephantman]

I really really disagree with this. The amount of quick ruck ball he generates from clearing out players when he plays 6 is phenomenal. He also makes a ton of tackles as a 6. He might not carry as much but he really does play 6 to a world class level.

Doris will play well wherever he’s picked but are you really suggesting that Doris is better at 6 than at 8?

I'm suggesting he influences the game in different ways in both positions. As a 6 it's more subtle.

Perhaps but I tend to look at the big picture.

Your best players should play in their best positions.

[Degz]

On the leadership as whole, I just think we lack any proper b$&%@#ds in the side. We've always imported that.

There is always the perception that our side is too homogenous, well mannered privately educated schoolboys. I do think there's something to that.

[Flash Gordon]

Doris will play well wherever he’s picked but are you really suggesting that Doris is better at 6 than at 8?

I'm suggesting he influences the game in different ways in both positions. As a 6 it's more subtle.

Perhaps but I tend to look at the big picture.

Your best players should play in their best positions.

It's not just about the individual though. We have a starting Lions 8 in Jack Conan, the best player in the world at 7 and Doris - as a unit, that back 3 is as good as it gets. Doris at 8, where he's a very very good player, removes Conan from the equation and although we have alternative 6's, they aren't quite at the Doris level.

[neiliog93]

Brodie Retallick will still only be 32 at the end of world cup, and is out of contract with the ABs. At that stage he'll have been in their set-up over 11 years and won everything. He's never played abroad except a half-season mini-sabbatical in Japan during Covid. This is the kind of guy we need in our pack physically and temperamentally.

[Morf]

Brodie Retallick will still only be 32 at the end of world cup, and is out of contract with the ABs. At that stage he'll have been in their set-up over 11 years and won everything. He's never played abroad except a half-season mini-sabbatical in Japan during Covid. This is the kind of guy we need in our pack physically and temperamentally.

It's a mindset and execution thing not a recruitment problem. If there's any lesson to learn from South Africa in 2019 it's that.