Heineken Champions Cup Final 2023

[Xanthippe]

In fairness to them [ I never like saying that ] Munster managed the end game far better last week. OK I know our seconds are nowhere as difficult an opponent as LR but they did do it with purpose. For some reason that should be explained the drop goal never seemed to be an option in that last 5.

For the stats men out there: what was the last match we dropped a goal in?

It was the 18-20 away win at Ospreys in April 2017. In the 79th minute Ross Byrne kicked a DG to win the match.

Before that I believe it was Ian Madigan in May 2015 away to Edinburgh.

Last DG in HCup was Rob Kearney away to Castres in January 2014

[Icarus]

Horrific match, devastated. Got assaulted by La Rochelle fans in the aviva aswell.

Next season we need some cajones i think, just be absolutely ruthless. Jack Boyle needs minutes, Prendergast needs minutes, we need more than 1 big boot on the pitch at one time. Desperately need another tighthead prop who at the very least is good in the scrum and can seal ruck ball. Joe McCarthy needs to be introduced into proper 23s and given minutes.

Think next season is a rebuilding season where we develop lads. We should treat it like that and take the URC seriously.

Finally I don't think I'll ever be as devastated at a result as that. Can't believe people are heading out after that. I genuinely be suprised if I leave bed the next 3 days.

No doubt about it, that was a f%~king bottle and a half. I feared it when Ryan came off. People who question him need a head wobble. Him and Furlong are world class in the tight 5 and the drop down to the man behind is large.

Believe me, from decades of life experience, it does not pay to predicate your general happiness on the fortunes of a particular rugby/GAA/soccer (or whatever) team.

[Twist]

In fairness to them [ I never like saying that ] Munster managed the end game far better last week. OK I know our seconds are nowhere as difficult an opponent as LR but they did do it with purpose. For some reason that should be explained the drop goal never seemed to be an option in that last 5.

For the stats men out there: what was the last match we dropped a goal in?

It was the 18-20 away win at Ospreys in April 2017. In the 79th minute Ross Byrne kicked a DG to win the match.

Before that I believe it was Ian Madigan in May 2015 away to Edinburgh

That’s an amazing stat.

Anyone else feeling even worse today?

[RoboProp]

La Rochelle would probably best most international team. Having a team with several 145kg monsters who can offload to another 145kg monster all while each monster is sucking in 2 or 3 defenders each. It's not pretty but it's pretty effective. It's how Sarries beat us with Billy V and Will Skelton and how LAR do it with Will Skelton (him again) and take your pick. Eddie Jones should move heaven and earth to entice Emmanuel Meafou and Skelton to line out for Oz at RWC

[Logorrhea]

We are when we need them (Elsom, Hines, Thorn, Scott Fardy, Kane Douglas - though he was less than interested) - but why would a top quality international come here when they know that they won't, pretty much, start any of the big games if there is an Irish international, or potential international, in their position

Elsom, Hines, Thorn and Scott Fardy did start on the big games though

[matt]

Are we allowed to sign top quality players? Seems to me the IRFU don't let us almost.

We are when we need them (Elsom, Hines, Thorn, Scott Fardy, Kane Douglas - though he was less than interested) - but why would a top quality international come here when they know that they won't, pretty much, start any of the big games if there is an Irish international, or potential international, in their position

Well if they're a truly top class international they will start surely? Someone like Arendse on the wing surely would start for us even though potential internationals are on the wing. Don't think IRFU would allow it as it could potentially block talent? Obviously a hypothetical situation but I think we would start the best player every time.

I know we have a different model which is for the good of the international team but it worth contrasting the signings La Rochelle have had since 2020. 6 of the 7 starters in the backs (2020) Leyds from Stormers, Rhule from Grenoble, Dulin from Racing, (2021) Danty from Stade Francais, (2022) Hastoy from Pau and Seutini from Bordeaux. Next season Jack Nowell is joining from Exeter. There are others in the forwards like Skelton who is a real difference maker. Very hard to compete with out largely home grown players and we have done very well but now we need 2 tight 5 players especially at prop because of Porter or Furlong are injured we are F*cked. la Rochelle picked up Sclavi from the Jaguers in 2021 and Columbe from Racing last year to add depth to their props.

[neiliog93]

Re the drop goal, I think they were trying to get go through phases to set up a ruck near the line slightly to the left or right of the posts, allowing Byrne to attempt the drop goal from directly in front of the posts, probably just outside the 22. You also need to keep the defence guessing that you might try to score a try, so that they can't all be set for a charge-down.

If Mike hadn't had his moment of madness, I predict we would have gone through 3 or 4 more phases, gradually moving the ruck to the right and closer to the posts, and then gone for the drop goal. From there, there's a 90% chance that Ross slots it home.

[Observingprop123]

We are when we need them (Elsom, Hines, Thorn, Scott Fardy, Kane Douglas - though he was less than interested) - but why would a top quality international come here when they know that they won't, pretty much, start any of the big games if there is an Irish international, or potential international, in their position

Well if they're a truly top class international they will start surely? Someone like Arendse on the wing surely would start for us even though potential internationals are on the wing. Don't think IRFU would allow it as it could potentially block talent? Obviously a hypothetical situation but I think we would start the best player every time.

I know we have a different model which is for the good of the international team but it worth contrasting the signings La Rochelle have had since 2020. 6 of the 7 starters in the backs (2020) Leyds from Stormers, Rhule from Grenoble, Dulin from Racing, (2021) Danty from Stade Francais, (2022) Hastoy from Pau and Seutini from Bordeaux. Next season Jack Nowell is joining from Exeter. There are others in the forwards like Skelton who is a real difference maker. Very hard to compete with out largely home grown players and we have done very well but now we need 2 tight 5 players especially at prop because of Porter or Furlong are injured we are F*cked. la Rochelle picked up Sclavi from the Jaguers in 2021 and Columbe from Racing last year to add depth to their props.

I'm scared of the prop situation tbh. Paddy McCarthy looks like a real prospect but I've no confidence in the other up and comers at the moment at tighthead yet. Loosehead I think Milne is a really good player at the moment and hope his scrummaging kicks on.

[RoboProp]

Well if they're a truly top class international they will start surely? Someone like Arendse on the wing surely would start for us even though potential internationals are on the wing. Don't think IRFU would allow it as it could potentially block talent? Obviously a hypothetical situation but I think we would start the best player every time.

I know we have a different model which is for the good of the international team but it worth contrasting the signings La Rochelle have had since 2020. 6 of the 7 starters in the backs (2020) Leyds from Stormers, Rhule from Grenoble, Dulin from Racing, (2021) Danty from Stade Francais, (2022) Hastoy from Pau and Seutini from Bordeaux. Next season Jack Nowell is joining from Exeter. There are others in the forwards like Skelton who is a real difference maker. Very hard to compete with out largely home grown players and we have done very well but now we need 2 tight 5 players especially at prop because of Porter or Furlong are injured we are F*cked. la Rochelle picked up Sclavi from the Jaguers in 2021 and Columbe from Racing last year to add depth to their props.

I'm scared of the prop situation tbh. Paddy McCarthy looks like a real prospect but I've no confidence in the other up and comers at the moment at tighthead yet. Loosehead I think Milne is a really good player at the moment and hope his scrummaging kicks on.

Is Ollie Jager the forgotten man? Most likely. Probably never gonna happen , however wouldn't be the worst thing to try and lure him home

[neiliog93]

We're in trouble at loosehead, as presumably Cian Healy is retiring. Milne is a good carrier but we need better scrummaging. Jack Boyle was outstanding for the Irish u-20s and is legitimately a great hope, but guys don't always make the step up to senior level as you might expect. At 6'1" and 108kg, he's also very light. Many openside flankers have a similar height/weight to him.

We need a big meat-hook of a prop from somewhere - hopefully Rory McGuire (6'4, 118kg) can bulk up to 125kg and do the job at tight-head, but we just don't know now. Paddy McCarthy is too small for tighthead at senior level, if we can get him up to at least 110kg (preferably 115kg) he can hopefully deploy his power and athleticism very effectively from loosehead.

But there's a lot of ifs and maybes in the above. Might be time to consider a solid NIQ loosehead signing for next season, or the season after (allowing Vakh and/or Jenkins to leave at the end of the 2023/24 season)....if we're allowed.

[enby]

In fairness to them [ I never like saying that ] Munster managed the end game far better last week. OK I know our seconds are nowhere as difficult an opponent as LR but they did do it with purpose. For some reason that should be explained the drop goal never seemed to be an option in that last 5.

For the stats men out there: what was the last match we dropped a goal in?

It was the 18-20 away win at Ospreys in April 2017. In the 79th minute Ross Byrne kicked a DG to win the match.

Before that I believe it was Ian Madigan in May 2015 away to Edinburgh

Thanks for following up on this Xanthippe.

What a strange situation. In rugby you can score in only 3 ways (4 if you include conversions ) and it has to be concluded that we have decided to turn our noses up at one of those 3 methods. That is either madness or arrogance. In our first HC win in 2009, Felipe got one in the semi v Munster and both BOD and Johnny managed it in the final. Who can forget Rob K's peach in that 2012 semi v Clermont-Ferrand? It is a good way of accumulating scores and we should not treat it with disdain.

I remember screaming at the TV for Johnny to slot one in the Saracens final in Newcastle....he didn't hear me. I also would like to see us occasionally try one when a goal line drop out lands in midfield.

Our Thou Shalt Not Attempt A Droppy policy needs to be explained

[Henry GF]

Leinster are good enough to win this competition, but I think there wasn't enough attention paid to warning signs in the last couple of months.

The stormers draw was a big red flag, yet people ignored it. They showed up and Leinster struggled. Second team but still.

The game against Toulouse was very strange. Leinster didn't have to work at all - I disagreed with the yellow Toulouse got, and Noves moving Dupont from 9 was utterly bizarre. Grau who he put into 9 made at least ten errors, he scuppered every Toulouse opportunity in the game. Lots of people didn't see that, all they saw was a massive win against a Toulouse side who in my opinion half threw the game. Noves isn't stupid and he and the players probably knew playing Rochelle twice would have left them with nothing this year - alot of their players are carrying recurring injuries.

So Leinster had a handy group in the HC, easy QF against a tigers side in huge transition having lost coaches mid season, and what I felt was almost a walkover v Toulouse thanks to Grau.

So more perspective is needed probably, no Johnny and all of the above meant yesterday was a 5050 v a great side.

I thought Peyper had a good game, if anything that card v kerr Barlow was harsh given it was around half way and lots of cover around.

And to the disrespect point - what I did see early on in the game was alot of Leinster smiling faces. That felt like an act to me, and that perhaps underneath they were trying to convince themselves.

Only a one point loss for all that, overall point is that perspective is needed , expectation were too high, and that grand slam was knackering.

[Jame Slowe]

I didn't want us to win the HC more because ROG is a classless tw@t, I wanted a fifth star. La Rochelle are a fine club, but they've let themselves down in a moment of glory. Hopefully they don't let it completely overshadow their win.

Get over it ***Edited by mod***

[suisse]

So Leinster practice Healy in 1, 2 and 3 and JDVF throwing into line outs.

But they haven't kicked a drop goal for over 6 years?

[Observingprop123]

We're in trouble at loosehead, as presumably Cian Healy is retiring. Milne is a good carrier but we need better scrummaging. Jack Boyle was outstanding for the Irish u-20s and is legitimately a great hope, but guys don't always make the step up to senior level as you might expect. At 6'1" and 108kg, he's also very light. Many openside flankers have a similar height/weight to him.

We need a big meat-hook of a prop from somewhere - hopefully Rory McGuire (6'4, 118kg) can bulk up to 125kg and do the job at tight-head, but we just don't know now. Paddy McCarthy is too small for tighthead at senior level, if we can get him up to at least 110kg (preferably 115kg) he can hopefully deploy his power and athleticism very effectively from loosehead.

But there's a lot of ifs and maybes in the above. Might be time to consider a solid NIQ loosehead signing for next season, or the season after (allowing Vakh and/or Jenkins to leave at the end of the 2023/24 season)....if we're allowed.

Not sure how old that weight figure is, but last time I saw him he looked about 113 kg or so. Has a long off season to bulk up this year so hopefully he is ready next year.

Haven't see much if McGuire but he looks like he has the frame for the pro game. Has he played well for UCd?

Furlong has really slowed down this season with Injuries. Wouldnt be suprised to see him transition to the Sexton role next year of playing the odd game

[Oldschoolsocks]

I didn't want us to win the HC more because ROG is a classless tw@t, I wanted a fifth star. La Rochelle are a fine club, but they've let themselves down in a moment of glory. Hopefully they don't let it completely overshadow their win.

Get over it Karen

And the knight in shining armour award goes to whatever this is…

[riocard911]

Amongst all the negativity and angst from yesterday's game I'd like to share a personal positive outcome.

My daughter, who last attended a game with me as a toddler and who has never shown any interest in sharing my love for Leinster, came with me yesterday (under protest) and was completely engrossed throughout. She also got a life lesson in how to deal with disappointment...graciously, I hope.

This was my one chance to open her mind to rugby as a spectator sport and maybe offer a distraction from the persistent social media bombardment all our children undergo. It succeeded on a level I couldn't have hoped for

I'd like to thank LR for giving us a hugely entertaining season, a spectacular H/C Final and providing some common ground for a Dad to bond with his daughter as she becomes increasingly independent.

Thanks for sharing such a heartwarming story, OE. It lifted the cloud I'm under somewhat.

[fourthirtythree]

Heading down conspiracy theory territoey. But wouldn't be surprised if Rog and his staff looked to make arrangements that would be difficult to accommodate their full party. To help (re) build their siege mentality. Though if that is your tactic, I don't see much wrong in it, once you aren't found out.
More likely case is that they just had restrictions imposed by EPRC that ROG and his staff were delighted to twist as being organised by Leinster as the effective home team.

Nah. Daddy flies a plane load or two over as the official party as we learned from the “empty stadium” they played at against Ulster. EPRC probably told them to f%~k off as they had actual paying customers and a couple hundred billionaire freeloaders were supernumerary.

[munster#1]

Unfortunately I know all too well the feeling that you are all going through right now.

Leinster came out all guns blazing and looked like they would have the game won by half time. The first try was a masterclass.
However, after 20 minutes of looking like the best team in the world, Leinster went into themselves a lot, and failed to impose themselves on LAR.

For me it was the try at the end of the first half which did most of the damage. It brought LAR back within touching distance of Leinster, and would have given them some real belief.

The 2 Kiwi’s picked a terrible time to turn in poor performances and it really hurt Leinster. But it was Leo’s lack of willingness to make the required changes which really let the team down.

Not that long ago there were a few posts o here about how Leinster have leaders littered around their whole squad, but yesterday Leinster lacked leadership on the field. Once Ryan went off, it was hard to really pick out players who stepped up, which is odd when you consider that many of the starting lineup are very experienced internationals.

I am not saying this from a high horse, as I clearly do not have that luxury to do so as a Munster fan, but imo the Leinster coaching ticket has to be questioned following this defeat.
Leaving aside the URC exit, imo the Leinster coaches have failed this team to an extent.
Leinster have been amazing in almost every game they have played for most of the last 10-15 years, but have always struggled against big teams, going back to Toulon, then Saracens and over the last 3 years, LAR.
The coaches have failed to develop a game plan to counter a power game.

Leinster will no doubt be back in the playoffs next season, but the result could end up being the same unless the coaches can finally learn to overcome bigger teams.

[LeinsterLeader]

Amongst all the negativity and angst from yesterday's game I'd like to share a personal positive outcome.

My daughter, who last attended a game with me as a toddler and who has never shown any interest in sharing my love for Leinster, came with me yesterday (under protest) and was completely engrossed throughout. She also got a life lesson in how to deal with disappointment...graciously, I hope.

This was my one chance to open her mind to rugby as a spectator sport and maybe offer a distraction from the persistent social media bombardment all our children undergo. It succeeded on a level I couldn't have hoped for

I'd like to thank LR for giving us a hugely entertaining season, a spectacular H/C Final and providing some common ground for a Dad to bond with his daughter as she becomes increasingly independent.

that’s great to hear OE. Glad you could get some positives out of the day. More important things then sport alright.