Not sure I agree with that. Can't really understand how a team who has earned the right to have a home draw playing a semi in their (actual or alternate) home threatens the integrity of the tournament. The whole 'home country, not home stadium' jazz has always struck me as a bit of a nonsense. How would it be better for anyone for the game this weekend to be played in Thomond or PuC (if we could even get it at such short notice)?
That's ok we can agree to disagree, you think it's fair for a team to play the entire HEC knock out phase at home I don't. I'm trying to remove my Leinster bias here, and think how i'd feel if it were Tigers playing all their games in Welford road including the final, right or wrong that's how the other teams fans view this.
The final is different as it was supposed to be in London this year and only got moved because the premier league season got extended. The Aviva stadium is a fill-in and not really sure what's supposed to happen there, should we not be able to use the Aviva in the knockouts this season? Or do we suddenly not have the advantage because the semi is played elsewhere in Ireland?.
I absolutely think it's fair that teams can earn the right to play their knockouts at home. As I said, I really fail to see how the tournament would benefit from us having to play Toulouse in somewhere like Thomond Park. If Toulouse wanted to play us in Stade de Toulouse they should have got more points in the pool stages.
I'm not arguing against the final in the Aviva, I explicitly said that in my OP, as you said the Aviva this year was a dig out to help the EPRC cause Spurs let them down, i'm not even arguing against teams getting a home advantage for knock out games. My argument is that having ALL your knockout games at home isn't fair. My solution to this, is simply to remove the home venue option at Semi Final.
You ask who it benefits, Toulouse is the answer, it is to their benefit that we are moved from our home stadium to create a fairer competition. There are plenty of reasons why it doesn't make sense, commercially etc. but based solely on the reason for fairer competition I wouldn't have a problem if that rule was changed. But until it is we should 100% continue to play in the Aviva no matter what English Journos say!
Not sure I agree with that. Can't really understand how a team who has earned the right to have a home draw playing a semi in their (actual or alternate) home threatens the integrity of the tournament. The whole 'home country, not home stadium' jazz has always struck me as a bit of a nonsense. How would it be better for anyone for the game this weekend to be played in Thomond or PuC (if we could even get it at such short notice)?
That's ok we can agree to disagree, you think it's fair for a team to play the entire HEC knock out phase at home I don't. I'm trying to remove my Leinster bias here, and think how i'd feel if it were Tigers playing all their games in Welford road including the final, right or wrong that's how the other teams fans view this.
The English fans are on board with any argument that paints Leinster as having an unfair advantage over their own teams. Money, players, resting players, no relegation, not a real team/only put together in the 90's, weak URC, academy's and home advantage. Probably missed a few, it changes.
It deflects and protects them from an uncomfortable truth.
We are better.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
locho wrote: ↑April 26th, 2023, 2:25 pm
I can fully understand the frustration from the teams in relation to the Semi-Final but complaining about the Final venue is stupid. It's a once in a 10 year event that it happens to be in the home of Irish Rugby.
what's their solution, remove venues from final consideration just because a local team is going well, in that case No London venue should be allowed for as long Sarries are top team in England, so Spurs stadium should be out. Or is it just because we are that successful that we can bring more games to a larger stadium that we miss out.
I agree the semi-final situation can be rectified, given we play so many games in the Aviva it cannot be considered a neutral home country venue anymore but up until they change the rules we should continue to play there.
Why are so many fans and pundits still getting this wrong? The rules have been changed by the EPCR, the neutral home semi final venue rule is not a thing anymore. You can use your home stadium so long as it meets the capacity criteria.
Keith what have I gotten wrong? There was no rule change in 2019, the article you cited literally said as much, what was clarified is that EPRC reserve the right to select the home venue of a club as a suitable semi-final venue but the rule remains that Semi-Finals are awarded on a home country advantage. I've already stated that we are following the rules and should continue to do so.
My point is that I agree with the sentiment from the English Journalists that no team should have the ability to play all their knock out games in Europe in their Home venue, however I completely disagree with all of their suggested solutions. The Aviva, may not officially be our home venue, but nobody can seriously suggest it's not our alternate home venue given how often we play there. For me the only place to rectify this is at the Semi-Final stage, this years final being in the Aviva is something that has to be accepted however if a rule change was made that teams cannot play the Home Country semi final in their Home or alternate Home venue I would have no issue with that. The definition of an alternate home venue is up for debate but i would argue a venue where you play at least 3 games a season would constitute an alternative home venue.
This obviously goes against the best interests of the EPRC as would potentially result in loss of revenue, but would protect the integrity of the competition.
You say there has been no rule change and then go on to explain how the rule has changed.... Under the ERC Bordeaux would not have been able to play at their Delmas stadium, now they can. Simple. I believe the EPCR got a shock when just 38k people attended the semi finals in 2016, so they decided to change it.
The thing about the English press giving out about this, is that it is their own PRL (under the EPCR banner) who were instrumental in bringing in these changes to the competition. Remember when their press told us how much better the competition would be when they took it out of the control of the unions?
The ERC avoided these sort of situations with their rules... Random draw for home semi finals and "neutral" home stadiums for semi finals. It's almost like they knew what they were doing...
locho wrote: ↑April 26th, 2023, 2:25 pm
I can fully understand the frustration from the teams in relation to the Semi-Final but complaining about the Final venue is stupid. It's a once in a 10 year event that it happens to be in the home of Irish Rugby.
what's their solution, remove venues from final consideration just because a local team is going well, in that case No London venue should be allowed for as long Sarries are top team in England, so Spurs stadium should be out. Or is it just because we are that successful that we can bring more games to a larger stadium that we miss out.
I agree the semi-final situation can be rectified, given we play so many games in the Aviva it cannot be considered a neutral home country venue anymore but up until they change the rules we should continue to play there.
Why are so many fans and pundits still getting this wrong? The rules have been changed by the EPCR, the neutral home semi final venue rule is not a thing anymore. You can use your home stadium so long as it meets the capacity criteria.
Keith what have I gotten wrong? There was no rule change in 2019, the article you cited literally said as much, what was clarified is that EPRC reserve the right to select the home venue of a club as a suitable semi-final venue but the rule remains that Semi-Finals are awarded on a home country advantage. I've already stated that we are following the rules and should continue to do so.
My point is that I agree with the sentiment from the English Journalists that no team should have the ability to play all their knock out games in Europe in their Home venue, however I completely disagree with all of their suggested solutions. The Aviva, may not officially be our home venue, but nobody can seriously suggest it's not our alternate home venue given how often we play there. For me the only place to rectify this is at the Semi-Final stage, this years final being in the Aviva is something that has to be accepted however if a rule change was made that teams cannot play the Home Country semi final in their Home or alternate Home venue I would have no issue with that. The definition of an alternate home venue is up for debate but i would argue a venue where you play at least 3 games a season would constitute an alternative home venue.
This obviously goes against the best interests of the EPRC as would potentially result in loss of revenue, but would protect the integrity of the competition.
But we don't play 3 home games a season at the Aviva, we usually play a derby and a one European game. When (and if) we get through to quarters and semi finals in the Champions we tend to move because the RDS isn't big enough - Toulouse also move when their stadium isn't big enough for a game (to the soccer stadium - which hosted THAT game in 2006). In the Pro14/URC we've stayed at the RDS through the playoffs and finals if we've got there. More pragmatically, the only other ground suitable that has the scale is Croke Park and that would cost us money, the revenue would leave the game and it'd be half empty - so that seems a bit stupid for a cosmetic exercise.
We don't need to say that you can't have a home sf in all circumstances. Just say the sf stadia cannot be the same as the final. If the final was in cardiff let's say, I don't think there would be any where near as much moaning if we were in the aviva for r16, qf, sf only.
heno wrote: ↑April 28th, 2023, 1:28 am
We don't need to say that you can't have a home sf in all circumstances. Just say the sf stadia cannot be the same as the final. If the final was in cardiff let's say, I don't think there would be any where near as much moaning if we were in the aviva for r16, qf, sf only.
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Teams like to play in their own stadia for atmosphere. They want to move to a bigger venue filled with day trippers when they want money. Leinster are good citizens who don't believe in wasting money.
The people complaining have it entirely backwards, and a history of getting things backwards while complaining bitterly.
Toulouse wouldn't have an advantage if Leinster played in the RDS, but ERPC would miss out on a payday. Rugby is in financial crisis, it can't afford that sort of thinking. We wouldn't have this problem if we had another national stadium, but it's a problem that Wales and Scotland also have. Leinster lost a Heineken Cup final to an English team in England and a South of France team in the South of France. It's absolutely extraordinary that this deranged narrative hasn't been laughed out of town.
The chairman of EPCR Dom McKay was on the Times rugby podcast earlier in the week and was asked about it. His answer can be boiled down to people may not like it but rugby is recovering from covid and big crowds drive revenues.
