Leinster v Leicester - Aviva Stadium - Good Friday - 8pm

[Oldschool]

Success is relative.
Most of the French clubs have shown little interest in winning the HCC. England's clubs have been luke warm seeing it as a lever to extract more money from the RFU.
Ireland aren't punching above their weight particularly it's the other countries who are falling down on the job.

[Keith]

Success is relative.
Most of the French clubs have shown little interest in winning the HCC. England's clubs have been luke warm seeing it as a lever to extract more money from the RFU.
Ireland aren't punching above their weight particularly it's the other countries who are falling down on the job.

How do you figure that most of the French clubs have shown little interest? You could have maybe argued that the likes of Montpellier and Castres didn't have any interest, but after seeing the incredible performance Montpellier put in away from home in the last 16, that's kind of quashed that for me. The French clearly put huge importance on it and rightfully so.

[hugonaut]

Success is relative.
Most of the French clubs have shown little interest in winning the HCC. England's clubs have been luke warm seeing it as a lever to extract more money from the RFU.
Ireland aren't punching above their weight particularly it's the other countries who are falling down on the job.

How do you figure that most of the French clubs have shown little interest? You could have maybe argued that the likes of Montpellier and Castres didn't have any interest, but after seeing the incredible performance Montpellier put in away from home in the last 16, that's kind of quashed that for me. The French clearly put huge importance on it and rightfully so.

Ireland aren't punching above our weight. We had one quarter-finalist. We are barely punching our weight.

The French are punching their weight. They have two teams in the semi-finals. They had three teams in the semi-finals last year: Toulouse, Racing and La Rochelle, and three in the previous year's semi-finals, Toulouse, Bordeaux Begles and La Rochelle.

[Ruckedtobits]

French Clubs who genuinely try for European success:
Toulouse;
LAR
Racing 92;
Clermont;
Toulon;
Montpellier;
Castres;
Perpignan;
Lyon;

French Clubs for whom Europe means little, at present:
Stade Francais
Bayonne;
Bordeaux Begles;
Section Palois (Pau);
Brive;

The list can vary from year to year but those listed as uninterested is pretty 'hardcore' despite including former winners Brive

[Blueberry]

And here's a more balanced view from the Guardian (I know): https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -in-europe

Good to see this article - stop whining in short and get on with it

Honestly though just ignore..........who cares what some muppet says on Twitchat or whatever. I'm only interested in beating Toulouse and then a final if we make it.

The noise is pretty standard 'blame someone else' rather than look at ourselves. The Welsh have done it, we get it from Munster and dare I point out that there was a bit of it from our shores when Toulon were out Globetrotting us with Wilko et al and pots of cash.

It's good entertainment though.

Gas thing is the two superb English coaches Lancaster and Farrell are over here so thanks lads for screwing up there and not holding onto them

[paddyor]

Success is relative.
Most of the French clubs have shown little interest in winning the HCC. England's clubs have been luke warm seeing it as a lever to extract more money from the RFU.
Ireland aren't punching above their weight particularly it's the other countries who are falling down on the job.

How do you figure that most of the French clubs have shown little interest? You could have maybe argued that the likes of Montpellier and Castres didn't have any interest, but after seeing the incredible performance Montpellier put in away from home in the last 16, that's kind of quashed that for me. The French clearly put huge importance on it and rightfully so.

Ireland aren't punching above our weight. We had one quarter-finalist. We are barely punching our weight.

The French are punching their weight. They have two teams in the semi-finals. They had three teams in the semi-finals last year: Toulouse, Racing and La Rochelle, and three in the previous year's semi-finals, Toulouse, Bordeaux Begles and La Rochelle.

And only cuz we're cheating somehow innit!

[hugonaut]

The noise is pretty standard 'blame someone else' rather than look at ourselves. The Welsh have done it, we get it from Munster and dare I point out that there was a bit of it from our shores when Toulon were out Globetrotting us with Wilko et al and pots of cash.

Yeah, we were hardly clapping Saracens on their way to the title either. You shouldn't expect your rivals to cheer for you.

[The Doc]

Don't let us forget it was Sir John Hall and Rob Andrew who started it all when they bought Gosforth, re branded themselves as Newcastle and bought a league winning team. Then Hall left them high and dry with no funds, Andrew shot off like a robbers dog and the whole money go round began, some folks have short memories. Now all the teams have to qualify properly rather just on allocated numbers(well nearly) the field is more level, the salary cap is killing the English game, but that is self inflicted, trouble is where would the money come from, soccer is king in England and always will be.

I think that started the current trend but I think there was an underlying error which is more deep-rooted. In every country (other than France), the bulk of revenue in the game overall is driven by international games - ticket revenue per match, sponsorship, TV rights. From the beginning the Premiership cut the ties with the RFU and the cross funding from the international game. I don't think they were really looking at the football model but probably hoping to follow the French. But there just wasn't the same ingrained mass market connection to rugby in the UK as their was in the south of France.

Sine that point, they have been battling against the current and things like the international match fees to players and credits for academy players have really been a sticking plaster for the fundamental weakness in the model. Covid was probably a catalyst but in effect it just accelerated a fundamental underlying flaw that even for a large rugby market like England, rugby as a sport only develops when all tiers are acting together and cross funding from the revenue sources to the development needs

The second structural flaw in in the implementation of the salary cap. By having the international top ups and the exemption for the marquee players, you create a dumbell distribution of wages - some extremely highly paid players using a significant portion of the cap and huge percentage of players on really quite small wages for what they do. I believe the average wage per player in the Premiership is approx £150k (i.e. wage bill / number of players). But I saw somewhere that median wage is less than £50k i.e. over half the players are paid less than that.

So I think it is probably true to say that an "average" player in the Leinster squad is paid significantly more than an "average" player in a Premiership squad - and that is possibly true for 80%+ of the squad, I don't think the difference in overall squad cost is anything like what is thrown around online

[tigerburnie]

Don't let us forget it was Sir John Hall and Rob Andrew who started it all when they bought Gosforth, re branded themselves as Newcastle and bought a league winning team. Then Hall left them high and dry with no funds, Andrew shot off like a robbers dog and the whole money go round began, some folks have short memories. Now all the teams have to qualify properly rather just on allocated numbers(well nearly) the field is more level, the salary cap is killing the English game, but that is self inflicted, trouble is where would the money come from, soccer is king in England and always will be.

I think that started the current trend but I think there was an underlying error which is more deep-rooted. In every country (other than France), the bulk of revenue in the game overall is driven by international games - ticket revenue per match, sponsorship, TV rights. From the beginning the Premiership cut the ties with the RFU and the cross funding from the international game.

Point of correction the clubs approached the RFU to ask if they were going to run the league and the RFU declined, indeed I was told by someone who was in the meeting, they down right refused, they just agreed to pay for access to the plays for the International matches, which of course to begin with was just the 6 Nations, the English clubs agreed to release Irish, Welsh and Scots players too. When the Autumn International Circus came along, then different release clauses were added.

[The Doc]

Don't let us forget it was Sir John Hall and Rob Andrew who started it all when they bought Gosforth, re branded themselves as Newcastle and bought a league winning team. Then Hall left them high and dry with no funds, Andrew shot off like a robbers dog and the whole money go round began, some folks have short memories. Now all the teams have to qualify properly rather just on allocated numbers(well nearly) the field is more level, the salary cap is killing the English game, but that is self inflicted, trouble is where would the money come from, soccer is king in England and always will be.

I think that started the current trend but I think there was an underlying error which is more deep-rooted. In every country (other than France), the bulk of revenue in the game overall is driven by international games - ticket revenue per match, sponsorship, TV rights. From the beginning the Premiership cut the ties with the RFU and the cross funding from the international game.

Point of correction the clubs approached the RFU to ask if they were going to run the league and the RFU declined, indeed I was told by someone who was in the meeting, they down right refused, they just agreed to pay for access to the plays for the International matches, which of course to begin with was just the 6 Nations, the English clubs agreed to release Irish, Welsh and Scots players too. When the Autumn International Circus came along, then different release clauses were added.

Thanks for the correction - apologies. I think that decision was ill advised (in my view).

RFU were probably thinking they needed to focus on the "community" game. But I take the view that the entirety of the game from International, through pro teams to clubs and schools need to have some form of integration

[tigerburnie]

Sadly the RFU are doing their level best to abandon the other leagues, no funding for the lower leagues, their is some sort of assistance for lower clubs to install all weather pitches for the local community, but that's about it. My old club in level four used to get travel assistance for away games over a certain distance, that has ceased now. An amateur club travelling from Leicester to Redruth in Cornwall for example with an over night stop half way, some clubs just couldn't afford to get promoted. My club have won promotion to level three next year, where they may come up against some semi pro sides, exciting prospect, just hope they can afford to compete.

[The Doc]

Sadly the RFU are doing their level best to abandon the other leagues, no funding for the lower leagues, their is some sort of assistance for lower clubs to install all weather pitches for the local community, but that's about it. My old club in level four used to get travel assistance for away games over a certain distance, that has ceased now. An amateur club travelling from Leicester to Redruth in Cornwall for example with an over night stop half way, some clubs just couldn't afford to get promoted. My club have won promotion to level three next year, where they may come up against some semi pro sides, exciting prospect, just hope they can afford to compete.

I had been hearing some of that all right - tough for the junior clubs. And things like development officers and the like are probably what the RFU should be trying to keep going. They are the things that will bring more players and activity into the clubs at all levels

Hope it works out for you guys

[FLIP]

From my understanding a lot of the community money from the RFU is now going into the underage regional coaching and playing setups as a mechanism to boost development and give the academies more choice - for example, my old teams head coach also works part time as a coach for East Midlands U20s. This picks up players who aren't scooped up by the traditional academy routes and gives them a chance in the shop window.

[Flash Gordon]

Understand the RFU are investing in underage and academies but then essentially the clubs and the RFU are paying for the same thing, so that model is flawed. Why would you not connect the RFU to the clubs with funding from the RFU and conditions that they need to invest in academies and bring local lads through?

We were rubbish in the 1990s and 2000's and the way we changed that was a fundamental overhaul of the system to a homegrown based provincial system that was not for profit but set up to develop the game from minis to clubs, to schools, to academies to the professional game (or wherever your rugby career may lead you).

When Leinster set the system up they worked on a 10 year plan with building blocks that traced a kids pathway from minis to the professional game (or amateur rugby). The issue the RFU face is that to copy that system would take 10 years and I'm not sure they have the patience for that. I suppose in our situation it was easier because we were so bad that the only way was up, for England, they've won the World Cup and recently the 6 nations and several clubs have won European Cups. So their expectation level is high and they'll have to take a fairly significant step back to get to where they want to be. Unfortunately for them, I'm not sure they have choice as the club system is on the brink of collapse and the national team in decline.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I wouldn’t be ringing the death knell of English rugby just yet.

They’ve a huge population a massive tradition. A superbly coached Leinster won well in a semi final match and a superbly coached Ireland won a Grand Slam with a lot of the same players. That doesn’t mean our system is more better or that it will remain forever preeminent. Its all cyclical dudes, lets not be like this f%~king clown from 2009 https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/even-s ... g-1.758025

[FtD]

I wouldn’t be ringing the death knell of English rugby just yet.

They’ve a huge population a massive tradition. A superbly coached Leinster won well in a semi final match and a superbly coached Ireland won a Grand Slam with a lot of the same players. That doesn’t mean our system is more better or that it will remain forever preeminent. Its all cyclical dudes, lets not be like this f%~king clown from 2009 https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/even-s ... g-1.758025

My god that was painful. Even Munster fans must have cringed reading it at the time.

[Serb]

I think it perfectly captures the attitude at the time. The article was saying what the vast majority of Munster fans were thinking prior to the Croke Park game.

There’s a lesson in there for all of us really. Don’t take the good times for granted. You can spend these weeks, months, years — however long it lasts — either savouring the wonderful team that we get to experience every week, or we can write comically arrogant puff pieces for a national paper and become a laughing stock when, inevitably, the good times are over.

[wixfjord]

Haha good auld Niall Kiely

Isa Nacewa, lord have mercy.

[XyzFoo]

I wouldn’t be ringing the death knell of English rugby just yet.

They’ve a huge population a massive tradition.

Absolutely, as we've all no doubt learned recently, the main determinant of success on the pitch is de demagrafics, and they have that going for them, now as ever before.

[FtD]

Haha good auld Niall Kiely

Isa Nacewa, lord have mercy.

yeah, of all the comments in it, that's the one I chuckled at the most.

Hilarious how: Isa Nacewa - lord have mercy could have equally been written (but with a very different meaning) almost 10 years later.

Stick to the day job Niall, because you've no real eye for rugby talent.