Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???

[ceemec]

It wasn't an issue for us last year against the best scrummaging sides we faced either (LAR, Toulouse) by the way. Porter handled Atonio fine and has handled Malherbe fine too in the recent Autumn test.

The scrum was hanging by a thread against LAR and penalised a few times. LAR were dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUbzp7afuYQ

The best thing about playing against French opposition is that we can't have a French referee.....a standard French referee would have blown us off the park in that encounter similar to how Gauzere did against Saracens in 2020.

[mildlyinterested]

McBryde has brought through three Irish international front rows: Porter (switched sides), Kelleher and Sheehan.

Does the cupboard behind them look bare because of him or because the players (e.g. Milne and Vakh) are not good enough?
People on here have been hyping up Vakh for years, so that would imply it is McBryde's fault.
Is it? I genuinely don't know.

The cupboard looks bare?

There is plenty of young talent at prop in the leinster system, even if you don't include Vakh, who I dont think has been hyped up at all.

Porter is still a work in progress in the scrum since switching to loosehead and I wouldnt be crediting McBryde with making him a top level scrummager yet.

Personally I think Leinsters scrum has gone backwards under McBryde and risks going further back in the coming years as Furlong ages & Healy retires.

As a matter of interest what was 'the bar' in terms of scrummaging for us prior to Mcbryde? When were we popping out scrummaging props/hookers before him. Cause I gotta be honest, I'm struggling to remember when we had a scrum that didn't have problems. Certainly (like today) I can always remember us struggling in the scrum when we didn't have our frontline guys on the park

I thought under Feek and Fogarty the scrum was more reliable and wasnt as much of a risk, also under them we had Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong come through the setup along with Bent becoming a very reliable TH.

[wixfjord]

It wasn't an issue for us last year against the best scrummaging sides we faced either (LAR, Toulouse) by the way. Porter handled Atonio fine and has handled Malherbe fine too in the recent Autumn test.

The scrum was hanging by a thread against LAR and penalised a few times. LAR were dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUbzp7afuYQ

The best thing about playing against French opposition is that we can't have a French referee.....a standard French referee would have blown us off the park in that encounter similar to how Gauzere did against Saracens in 2020.

We had 100% scrum success on our put in.

We're never going to be powerful enough to be the aggressor in a scrum battle with a side like LAR. That's the trade off we decide to make when our game is based on pace and handling.

But the scrum held out fine and wasn't an issue in that game.

Porter was under massive pressure on the line against Atonio in first half and held out to win a pen too and we won a FK for them engaging early on their line seconds later (not shown in video above, which is an edit designed to focus on LAR).

This is without Jenkins who is a major boost to our scrummaging ability.

[LeinsterLeader]

It wasn't an issue for us last year against the best scrummaging sides we faced either (LAR, Toulouse) by the way. Porter handled Atonio fine and has handled Malherbe fine too in the recent Autumn test.

The scrum was hanging by a thread against LAR and penalised a few times. LAR were dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUbzp7afuYQ

The best thing about playing against French opposition is that we can't have a French referee.....a standard French referee would have blown us off the park in that encounter similar to how Gauzere did against Saracens in 2020.

In fairness I don't think you could use that video as evidence of us 'hanging by a thread'. We were under pressures sure but that's what it was edited to show. In the whole thing I think I counted one penalty given against us, the rest was just pressure. I thought we handled it pretty well and wasn't a major reason why we lost on the day.

Actually thinking back, the last big game I can remember us losing based on the oppositions superiority in the Scrum, was the QF versus Saracens (am I missing any?) and if that is the case thats not too shabby. Now I'm not saying we haven't lost a scrum battle since then but we generally manage it well enough as part of the overall game plan.

[LeinsterLeader]

I thought under Feek and Fogarty the scrum was more reliable and wasnt as much of a risk, also under them we had Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Tadhg Furlong come through the setup along with Bent becoming a very reliable TH.

Yeah you see, you may very well be right but it's small margins. Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Bent improved under them?.......yeah maybe but who's to say that was down to them? Also, could you not make an argument that Mike A and Porter have improved their scrummaging under McBride? You might not agree with it but you could make the argument.

The reality is that at no time in living memory have we had a consistent strong scrum. We managed without it. It's what we do.

So have we digressed under McBride since his arrival. Possibly but in comparison to previous scrum coaches, even at our best, has there been a huge difference? I don't think the evidence is there to suggest here has.

[paddyor]

It wasn't an issue for us last year against the best scrummaging sides we faced either (LAR, Toulouse) by the way. Porter handled Atonio fine and has handled Malherbe fine too in the recent Autumn test.

The scrum was hanging by a thread against LAR and penalised a few times. LAR were dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUbzp7afuYQ

The best thing about playing against French opposition is that we can't have a French referee.....a standard French referee would have blown us off the park in that encounter similar to how Gauzere did against Saracens in 2020.

LAR got caught playing silly buggers(Priso IIRC) late in the 2nd half. They defo had the upper hand though and the series of scrums on our 5 had a whiff of inevitabiliuty about it.

[ronk]

No one is asking for a dominant scrum in this thread, rather to not have a scrum thats an issue.. do you have faith that the young props will be able to step up in the coming years under McBrydes scrum coaching?

I think it's exactly what people ask for, at least every year and often without understanding or accepting the trade-offs.

Leinster and the other provinces (dictated by the requirements of Ireland) have a strategy that somewhat deemphasises the importance of scrums as an attacking platform.

Leinster recently acquired our heaviest front row and our heaviest lock. 4 of our 5 100kg+ backs were signed and I'm not sure I trust Turner's stats. We made ourselves bigger, but only up to a point.

None of the props younger than Porter (who've played senior so far) have shown anything like the power he has. But he was exceptional and we're still affected by players we lost in that age bracket. There are 3 ex-Leinster props in recent international setups.

Leinster could do more by hiring a dedicated scrum coach, spending more time training scrummaging, conditioning players for scrummaging and signing better scrummagers. But it might not make us a better team. Ospreys have a really good tight 5 in the tight. How are they doing?

Leinster have been lucky to produce 3 absolute freak props in the pro era: Healy, Furlong and Porter. Do I think Milne and Clarkson will join that list? No. Am I okay with that? Yes, they can't all be that good. Would I prefer more players like Porter? Of course.

[riocard911]

Leinster's scrum doesn't need to be excellent against the Dragons or Zebre or Edinburgh. The fact that our scrum has largely been fine this season is, in part, owing to the fact that we have faced very few good quality front five units. The Ospreys blew us away there. Munster had us in significant difficulty (Ryan comfortably had the upper hand on Porter). We've won the 7th most scrum penalties in the URC which isn't a league known for gnarled scrummaging.

Scrum can be the difference between winning and losing a game and, if we had faced a better side than the Ospreys last weekend, it would have been. Whilst it's near impossible to replicate the challenge that will be faced at the business end of the season in terms of that front five challenge, I hope Leinster are putting together a plan to address (which, given the Jenkins signing, I would imagine they are).

If someone wants a fright, I'd suggest they look at the La Rochelle scrum against Toulouse last weekend. They absolutely scrummaged them into the dirt. I don't think any team in Europe (and probably the world, either in club or test level) can live with what they have at scrum time at this stage. The Toulouse selection was largely second string but their front row was Baille (came on early), Mauvaka and Faumuina.

La Rochelle went out and signed two props last summer who are absolute monsters to support their starters. Now when they 145kg Atonio goes off, he's replaced by the 142kg Georges-Henri Colombe. They did this without Skelton involved also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXueQ8K0XEQ

We'll never be at that level but we need to be working on clearing the ball as quickly as possible from any scrum and analysis to mitigate against any drive on opposition ball as and when we face those biggest of French units. The 6N will hopefully be a good development test for Porter as he needs to face as many top end tightheads as possible right now. Unfortunately, we face the Stormers when Porter will be unavailable. 60 minutes against Malherbe would have been useful.

Whilst Porter brings exceptional play around the park, I wouldn't be slow to bring on Healy if needed given he has proven a more solid and reliable scrummager at loosehead.

"... we need to be working on clearing the ball as quickly as possible from any scrum and analysis to mitigate against any drive on opposition ball as and when we face those biggest of French units."

I agree totally. Foley had a chance last Saturday to pick up the ball and play it, when our first scrum vs the Ospreys started going backwards, and didn't. Drove me bonkers. What was he waiting for? A second push from our lads that would give us the peno? Absolutely mad stuff, IMO. Luke is occasionally guilty of it too. In ainm Dé lads, just get the ball out a.s.a.p. and try and prevent us getting pinged.

[wixfjord]

It wasn't an issue for us last year against the best scrummaging sides we faced either (LAR, Toulouse) by the way. Porter handled Atonio fine and has handled Malherbe fine too in the recent Autumn test.

The scrum was hanging by a thread against LAR and penalised a few times. LAR were dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUbzp7afuYQ

The best thing about playing against French opposition is that we can't have a French referee.....a standard French referee would have blown us off the park in that encounter similar to how Gauzere did against Saracens in 2020.

In fairness I don't think you could use that video as evidence of us 'hanging by a thread'. We were under pressures sure but that's what it was edited to show. In the whole thing I think I counted one penalty given against us, the rest was just pressure. I thought we handled it pretty well and wasn't a major reason why we lost on the day.

Actually thinking back, the last big game I can remember us losing based on the oppositions superiority in the Scrum, was the QF versus Saracens (am I missing any?) and if that is the case thats not too shabby. Now I'm not saying we haven't lost a scrum battle since then but we generally manage it well enough as part of the overall game plan.

Yes, and after that Sarries game I believe we changed our scrum setup and how our backrow/locks engaged after that.

[FLIP]

The scrum was hanging by a thread against LAR and penalised a few times. LAR were dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUbzp7afuYQ

The best thing about playing against French opposition is that we can't have a French referee.....a standard French referee would have blown us off the park in that encounter similar to how Gauzere did against Saracens in 2020.

In fairness I don't think you could use that video as evidence of us 'hanging by a thread'. We were under pressures sure but that's what it was edited to show. In the whole thing I think I counted one penalty given against us, the rest was just pressure. I thought we handled it pretty well and wasn't a major reason why we lost on the day.

Actually thinking back, the last big game I can remember us losing based on the oppositions superiority in the Scrum, was the QF versus Saracens (am I missing any?) and if that is the case thats not too shabby. Now I'm not saying we haven't lost a scrum battle since then but we generally manage it well enough as part of the overall game plan.

Yes, and after that Sarries game I believe we changed our scrum setup and how our backrow/locks engaged after that.

Which as of the LAR final was no longer in place AFAIR.

I remember remarking on it before, and I believe I was told there are some negatives to the approach used in terms of backrow speed off the scrum

[wixfjord]

In fairness I don't think you could use that video as evidence of us 'hanging by a thread'. We were under pressures sure but that's what it was edited to show. In the whole thing I think I counted one penalty given against us, the rest was just pressure. I thought we handled it pretty well and wasn't a major reason why we lost on the day.

Actually thinking back, the last big game I can remember us losing based on the oppositions superiority in the Scrum, was the QF versus Saracens (am I missing any?) and if that is the case thats not too shabby. Now I'm not saying we haven't lost a scrum battle since then but we generally manage it well enough as part of the overall game plan.

Yes, and after that Sarries game I believe we changed our scrum setup and how our backrow/locks engaged after that.

Which as of the LAR final was no longer in place AFAIR.

I remember remarking on it before, and I believe I was told there are some negatives to the approach used in terms of backrow speed off the scrum

Interesting, wasn't aware of that. Is that from you visually looking at the scrum or was it mentioned I wonder?

[Dave Cahill]

Pre Saracens the Leinster back five would engage from a single knee kneeling position. The following season Leinster started using a two knee position, giving you had a lower starting position and a straighter back. Thats changed again and they're back to one knee

[ormond lad]

As I understand it, underage rugby has no contested / limited contest scrums. I’m not sure what the laws are in other countries at underage but I wonder if there’s something here that our guys aren’t learning technique and dark arts early enough?

Up to under 19 rugby. there is a limit of pushing just 1.5metres. It is the same globally. there very much is a contest and its not limited.
Technique may not be taught. but that is a factor within individual clubs/schools or because of coaches etc not knowing enough.

[FLIP]

Yes, and after that Sarries game I believe we changed our scrum setup and how our backrow/locks engaged after that.

Which as of the LAR final was no longer in place AFAIR.

I remember remarking on it before, and I believe I was told there are some negatives to the approach used in terms of backrow speed off the scrum

Interesting, wasn't aware of that. Is that from you visually looking at the scrum or was it mentioned I wonder?

I noticed the difference around that time, as described by Dave. But it's a small visual change and hard to really pick up unless you're looking for it, or looking back at old games for it.

The two feet approach is the one taught from the lowest levels up in the English system - they term it "the tower of power"

[riocard911]

Which as of the LAR final was no longer in place AFAIR.

I remember remarking on it before, and I believe I was told there are some negatives to the approach used in terms of backrow speed off the scrum

Interesting, wasn't aware of that. Is that from you visually looking at the scrum or was it mentioned I wonder?

I noticed the difference around that time, as described by Dave. But it's a small visual change and hard to really pick up unless you're looking for it, or looking back at old games for it.

The two feet approach is the one taught from the lowest levels up in the English system - they term it "the tower of power"

I remember us changing to two knees down after the defeat to Sarries. I'd love to hear the reason we subsequently changed back to one knee again.

[hugonaut]

Anyone worried that the Leinster scrum is going to be Leinster's achilles heal and the season will be over once we meet a decent scrummaging team with a strict(french) ref?

seems to me that once Furlong and Porter have to go off, Leinster are in trouble... not to mention Porter isn't exactly rock solid at times or Furlongs injury issues this season.

It wouldn't be the first time Leinster's scrum was found out under McBryde...

Also any concern about the development of leinsters talented young props?

With regards to the younger players, I thought that Clarkson might be a little bit further on than he is. He got really good reviews when he was in the academy, staff were very impressed by him. In fairness, he's only 22 [23 next month]. I don't think he's miles off by any means, but I thought he would 5-10% further ahead than he is right now.

With that said, by the end of the 2012-13 season Jack McGrath was the same age as Clarkson is now, a couple of months away from 23 years old. Jack had played 4+13 [all league games] and Clarkson is on 8+13 [again, all league]. Gametime isn't the be-all-and-end-all, but it's useful to keep tabs on relative progression.

Obviously they play different sides of the scrum, but the comparison is pretty similar in a lot of other respects. Clarkson is listed as 185cm/118kg, Jack pretty much exactly the same. Both of them are quieter guys [compared to Tadgh or Cian, when he was younger], but hard-nosed. From what I have heard, Clarkson has the competitive edge that you would look for [in terms of his personality] as a professional prop. Not a guy who needed either the arm around the shoulder or the hairdryer treatment when he was in the academy.

[artaneboy]

That scrum where Mike got buckled up into the air on Saturday looks like Deeny totally lost his bind.
Given how strong the Ospreys scrum is, we were always going to struggle. But you really have to wonder about the logic of selecting Deeny.

Jenkins indeed seems to have become one of our most important players already.

On the flip side, Ireland's scrum held up well against South Africa - and Leinster's is arguably stronger.

I think McCarthy is a good tight head scrumaging lock too. Jenkins or McCarthy is necessary in a good team for that reason imo.

This is the tight head lock “solution”: Jenkins for the here and now of this season; McCarthy to gain experience and be the big man in the row from next season. Baird at 6 will add weight and leverage to the scrum too, which will help.

Of course, we still need our top quality front row to be sure. I’d say Porter, Kelleher and Furlong is the best scrummaging trio. Although to be fair to Sheehan, despite not being a classical hooker’s size and shape, he rarely looks to be a weak link and is very often prominent when we attack opposition scrums. But Kelleher just looks a better scrummaging fit.

I do think Denny was a mistaken selection when Mike and Dan were in that front row opposite the strong Osprey set. Deeny has many good qualities, but his loose binding combined with the Ospreys focus on getting under abd exposing the height of Ala'alatoa and Sheehan on that side was a flaw that was exposed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mildlyinterested]

Anyone worried that the Leinster scrum is going to be Leinster's achilles heal and the season will be over once we meet a decent scrummaging team with a strict(french) ref?

seems to me that once Furlong and Porter have to go off, Leinster are in trouble... not to mention Porter isn't exactly rock solid at times or Furlongs injury issues this season.

It wouldn't be the first time Leinster's scrum was found out under McBryde...

Also any concern about the development of leinsters talented young props?

With regards to the younger players, I thought that Clarkson might be a little bit further on than he is. He got really good reviews when he was in the academy, staff were very impressed by him. In fairness, he's only 22 [23 next month]. I don't think he's miles off by any means, but I thought he would 5-10% further ahead than he is right now.

With that said, by the end of the 2012-13 season Jack McGrath was the same age as Clarkson is now, a couple of months away from 23 years old. Jack had played 4+13 [all league games] and Clarkson is on 8+13 [again, all league]. Gametime isn't the be-all-and-end-all, but it's useful to keep tabs on relative progression.

Obviously they play different sides of the scrum, but the comparison is pretty similar in a lot of other respects. Clarkson is listed as 185cm/118kg, Jack pretty much exactly the same. Both of them are quieter guys [compared to Tadgh or Cian, when he was younger], but hard-nosed. From what I have heard, Clarkson has the competitive edge that you would look for [in terms of his personality] as a professional prop. Not a guy who needed either the arm around the shoulder or the hairdryer treatment when he was in the academy.

McGrath may have been listed at the same weight but he was more powerful at the same age and physically bigger looking.

Clarkson has has to work hard to get to 118kg at 22, id say McGrath was that size leaving Marys.

[naraic]

Interesting, wasn't aware of that. Is that from you visually looking at the scrum or was it mentioned I wonder?

I noticed the difference around that time, as described by Dave. But it's a small visual change and hard to really pick up unless you're looking for it, or looking back at old games for it.

The two feet approach is the one taught from the lowest levels up in the English system - they term it "the tower of power"

I remember us changing to two knees down after the defeat to Sarries. I'd love to hear the reason we subsequently changed back to one knee again.

IIRC Feek used to have us vary between both depending on set up.

On our own put in we would go one way and on opposition put in we would go another way.

If the other team was getting on top of us at scrum time and and we thought they were going for repeat infringements we would change.

[ronk]

Anyone worried that the Leinster scrum is going to be Leinster's achilles heal and the season will be over once we meet a decent scrummaging team with a strict(french) ref?

seems to me that once Furlong and Porter have to go off, Leinster are in trouble... not to mention Porter isn't exactly rock solid at times or Furlongs injury issues this season.

It wouldn't be the first time Leinster's scrum was found out under McBryde...

Also any concern about the development of leinsters talented young props?

With regards to the younger players, I thought that Clarkson might be a little bit further on than he is. He got really good reviews when he was in the academy, staff were very impressed by him. In fairness, he's only 22 [23 next month]. I don't think he's miles off by any means, but I thought he would 5-10% further ahead than he is right now.

With that said, by the end of the 2012-13 season Jack McGrath was the same age as Clarkson is now, a couple of months away from 23 years old. Jack had played 4+13 [all league games] and Clarkson is on 8+13 [again, all league]. Gametime isn't the be-all-and-end-all, but it's useful to keep tabs on relative progression.

Obviously they play different sides of the scrum, but the comparison is pretty similar in a lot of other respects. Clarkson is listed as 185cm/118kg, Jack pretty much exactly the same. Both of them are quieter guys [compared to Tadgh or Cian, when he was younger], but hard-nosed. From what I have heard, Clarkson has the competitive edge that you would look for [in terms of his personality] as a professional prop. Not a guy who needed either the arm around the shoulder or the hairdryer treatment when he was in the academy.

There were 6 more regular season games a year back then, generally the smaller games at awkward times that would have been the life blood of players trying to get chances. Over 4 seasons that's 24 games, it's like a while extra season.

Comparing gametime across generations ain't what it used to be.

Clarkson's numbers would look very different if Aungier and Salanoa hadn't left at the same time as Furlong and Abdaladze getting long term injuries. But he'd also have different expectations.