Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???

[mildlyinterested]

Anyone worried that the Leinster scrum is going to be Leinster's achilles heal and the season will be over once we meet a decent scrummaging team with a strict(french) ref?

seems to me that once Furlong and Porter have to go off, Leinster are in trouble... not to mention Porter isn't exactly rock solid at times or Furlongs injury issues this season.

It wouldn't be the first time Leinster's scrum was found out under McBryde...

Also any concern about the development of leinsters talented young props?

LH Prop
Cian Healy(34/Belvedere/Clontarf)
Ed Byrne(29/Clongowes/UCD)
Andrew Porter(26/St. Andrews/UCD)
Michael Milne(23/Birr RFC-Roscrea/UCD
--
Marcus Hanan(22/Clane RFC/Old Belvedere) - Academy Yr 3
Jack Boyle(20/St. Michaels/UCD) - Academy Yr 2
--
George Hadden(U20/Gorey RFC/Clontarf) - Irish u20
Ben Howard(U19/St. Michaels) - Irish u19

TH Prop
Michael Alaalatoa(31)
Tadhg Furlong(29/New Ross RFC/Clontarf)
Vakh Abdaladze(26/Coolmine RFC/Clontarf)
Tom Clarkson(22/Blackrock/DUFC)
--
Temi Lasisi(21/Enniscorthy RFC/Lansdowne) - Academy Yr 2
Rory McGuire(20/Blackrock/UCD) - Academy Yr 1
--
Paddy McCarthy(U20/Blackrock/DUFC) - Irish u20
Andrew Sparrow(U19/St. Marys) - Irish u19
Adam Daey(U19/Tullow RFC/Lansdowne) - Irish u19

Hooker
Tadgh McElroy(25/Dundalk RFC/Lansdowne)
Ronan Kelleher(24/St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
Dan Sheehan(24/Clongowes/Lansdowne)
--
John McKee(22/Campbell/Old Belvedere) - Academy Yr 3
Lee Barron(21/St. Michaels/DUFC) - Academy Yr 2
--
Gus McCarthy(U20/Blackrock/UCD) - Irish u20
Stephen Smyth(U19/Kilkenny) - Irish u19

[backrower8]

Very much so. It looks like the Titanic. Holed below the water line.

Jenkins is vital to shoring up big Mike.

Healy teetering on the brink.

None of the development props look close to the grade.

Trouble at mill.

[curates_egg]

That scrum where Mike got buckled up into the air on Saturday looks like Deeny totally lost his bind.
Given how strong the Ospreys scrum is, we were always going to struggle. But you really have to wonder about the logic of selecting Deeny.

Jenkins indeed seems to have become one of our most important players already.

On the flip side, Ireland's scrum held up well against South Africa - and Leinster's is arguably stronger.

[johng]

Can our heel be healed?

[wixfjord]

A bit of recency bias at play here I think.

Scrum has been fine for majority of the season and was a weapon against Racing. We also dealt with LAR in the final last year.

Looking at the data, we've won 94-95% of all scrums this season, so can't be that much of an achilles heel.

It's simple really.

If we can get Porter, Sheehan/Kelleher, Furlong/Mike and Jenkins on the pitch our scrum is good to strong.

If we need to play Healy from the start, Milne/Vakh/Clarkson on the bench or miss Jenkins then it's going to be weaker.

Against strong scrummaging sides the latter will struggle (as we saw at the weekend). Having Deeny at TH lock (and to a lesser extent Penny in the backrow) won't have helped either.

We should be fine against Glos given they have significant injuries there. Racing will be a sterner test without Furlong/Jenkins.

[naraic]

That scrum where Mike got buckled up into the air on Saturday looks like Deeny totally lost his bind.
Given how strong the Ospreys scrum is, we were always going to struggle. But you really have to wonder about the logic of selecting Deeny.

Jenkins indeed seems to have become one of our most important players already.

On the flip side, Ireland's scrum held up well against South Africa - and Leinster's is arguably stronger.

I think McCarthy is a good tight head scrumaging lock too. Jenkins or McCarthy is necessary in a good team for that reason imo.

[mildlyinterested]

Ryan is a decent TH scrummaging lock too... its just he is better off playing behind the loosehead side.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Ryan is a decent TH scrummaging lock too... its just he is better off playing behind the loosehead side.

I might be wrong here, but I rarely see J Ryan pack down behind the loosehead. It suggests he might have a preference for the right hand side of the scrum

[mildlyinterested]

Ryan is a decent TH scrummaging lock too... its just he is better off playing behind the loosehead side.

I might be wrong here, but I rarely see J Ryan pack down behind the loosehead. It suggests he might have a preference for the right hand side of the scrum

He does depending on who he partners with, majority of his career has been behind the tighthead though.

[Blue Man]

Yes scrum is Achilles heel, always has been.
It’s always a concern in really big games, not getting destroyed is usually a good outcome.
Need to look at technique and structure and I don’t believe it’s purely down to individuals. Yes scrum is Achilles heel, always has been. The second row combination picked for Saturday was too slight. Joe Schmidt was criticized for picking Roux and Klyen but clearly he understood the value of a scrummaging second row. JJ and Big Joe should make a difference but I think McBryde needs to earn his stripes. Possible consultancy role for Mike Ross?

[desperado]

I think the best scrum coach we had was Greg Feek. Healy/Stauss/Ross. Remember the final in Cardiff > a serious Nothampton scrum had us under pressure first half - sorted at half time if I recall.

[Blue Man]

As I understand it, underage rugby has no contested / limited contest scrums. I’m not sure what the laws are in other countries at underage but I wonder if there’s something here that our guys aren’t learning technique and dark arts early enough?

[ronk]

Leinster have a good scrum. Usually stands up well to most teams.

Creaks occasionally and doesn't really splinter opposing scrums. We don't tend to have days where a strong scrum carries us through against better ball playing teams.

Which is exactly what someone would expect given that we have a row row full of absolute ballers. They work hard on their scrummaging but absolutely no one thinks players like Furlong, Sheehan, Porter, Sheehan, Kelleher are scrummaging specialists who have expanded their skills. These are guys known for their agility, skills, pace.

Would I like to see Leinster have days where we smash a Saracens or a La Rochelle? Oh yes I would, but that's not who we are and that's not who we are going to become. Leinster (and Ireland) play a game that needs 15 players who can read and execute at pace with ball in hand.

It's not that we don't have the genetics for it, we don't want the trade-offs. Ireland could hand Daniel Brennan (& Brive) a big cheque and have a 21 stone (ish) loosehead.

When we wanted oversize tightheads we found Tony Buckley and Stewart Maguire. When we have someone like Dan Sheehan who has scored 25 tries for Leinster but only started 17 matches then you don't expect he was picked primarily on his scrummaging ability.

[mildlyinterested]

No one is asking for a dominant scrum in this thread, rather to not have a scrum thats an issue.. do you have faith that the young props will be able to step up in the coming years under McBrydes scrum coaching?

[curates_egg]

No one is asking for a dominant scrum in this thread, rather to not have a scrum thats an issue.. do you have faith that the young props will be able to step up in the coming years under McBrydes scrum coaching?

McBryde has brought through three Irish international front rows: Porter (switched sides), Kelleher and Sheehan.

Does the cupboard behind them look bare because of him or because the players (e.g. Milne and Vakh) are not good enough?
People on here have been hyping up Vakh for years, so that would imply it is McBryde's fault.
Is it? I genuinely don't know.

[ceemec]

Leinster's scrum doesn't need to be excellent against the Dragons or Zebre or Edinburgh. The fact that our scrum has largely been fine this season is, in part, owing to the fact that we have faced very few good quality front five units. The Ospreys blew us away there. Munster had us in significant difficulty (Ryan comfortably had the upper hand on Porter). We've won the 7th most scrum penalties in the URC which isn't a league known for gnarled scrummaging.

Scrum can be the difference between winning and losing a game and, if we had faced a better side than the Ospreys last weekend, it would have been. Whilst it's near impossible to replicate the challenge that will be faced at the business end of the season in terms of that front five challenge, I hope Leinster are putting together a plan to address (which, given the Jenkins signing, I would imagine they are).

If someone wants a fright, I'd suggest they look at the La Rochelle scrum against Toulouse last weekend. They absolutely scrummaged them into the dirt. I don't think any team in Europe (and probably the world, either in club or test level) can live with what they have at scrum time at this stage. The Toulouse selection was largely second string but their front row was Baille (came on early), Mauvaka and Faumuina.

La Rochelle went out and signed two props last summer who are absolute monsters to support their starters. Now when they 145kg Atonio goes off, he's replaced by the 142kg Georges-Henri Colombe. They did this without Skelton involved also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXueQ8K0XEQ

We'll never be at that level but we need to be working on clearing the ball as quickly as possible from any scrum and analysis to mitigate against any drive on opposition ball as and when we face those biggest of French units. The 6N will hopefully be a good development test for Porter as he needs to face as many top end tightheads as possible right now. Unfortunately, we face the Stormers when Porter will be unavailable. 60 minutes against Malherbe would have been useful.

Whilst Porter brings exceptional play around the park, I wouldn't be slow to bring on Healy if needed given he has proven a more solid and reliable scrummager at loosehead.

[mildlyinterested]

No one is asking for a dominant scrum in this thread, rather to not have a scrum thats an issue.. do you have faith that the young props will be able to step up in the coming years under McBrydes scrum coaching?

McBryde has brought through three Irish international front rows: Porter (switched sides), Kelleher and Sheehan.

Does the cupboard behind them look bare because of him or because the players (e.g. Milne and Vakh) are not good enough?
People on here have been hyping up Vakh for years, so that would imply it is McBryde's fault.
Is it? I genuinely don't know.

The cupboard looks bare?

There is plenty of young talent at prop in the leinster system, even if you don't include Vakh, who I dont think has been hyped up at all.

Porter is still a work in progress in the scrum since switching to loosehead and I wouldnt be crediting McBryde with making him a top level scrummager yet.

Personally I think Leinsters scrum has gone backwards under McBryde and risks going further back in the coming years as Furlong ages & Healy retires.

[LeinsterLeader]

No one is asking for a dominant scrum in this thread, rather to not have a scrum thats an issue.. do you have faith that the young props will be able to step up in the coming years under McBrydes scrum coaching?

McBryde has brought through three Irish international front rows: Porter (switched sides), Kelleher and Sheehan.

Does the cupboard behind them look bare because of him or because the players (e.g. Milne and Vakh) are not good enough?
People on here have been hyping up Vakh for years, so that would imply it is McBryde's fault.
Is it? I genuinely don't know.

The cupboard looks bare?

There is plenty of young talent at prop in the leinster system, even if you don't include Vakh, who I dont think has been hyped up at all.

Porter is still a work in progress in the scrum since switching to loosehead and I wouldnt be crediting McBryde with making him a top level scrummager yet.

Personally I think Leinsters scrum has gone backwards under McBryde and risks going further back in the coming years as Furlong ages & Healy retires.

As a matter of interest what was 'the bar' in terms of scrummaging for us prior to Mcbryde? When were we popping out scrummaging props/hookers before him. Cause I gotta be honest, I'm struggling to remember when we had a scrum that didn't have problems. Certainly (like today) I can always remember us struggling in the scrum when we didn't have our frontline guys on the park

[wixfjord]

No one is asking for a dominant scrum in this thread, rather to not have a scrum thats an issue.. do you have faith that the young props will be able to step up in the coming years under McBrydes scrum coaching?

You've made your mind up that the scrum is an issue and won't hear anything to the contrary. You want to blame McBryde so you're looking for any bit of evidence that might point to him.

As the saying goes, you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Our scrum has been fine this season overall with a 94-95% success rate and was very good against Racing in the biggest game we've played, milking multiple penalties.

When we can get the right players on the park, it is dominant.

If we need to go down a level, we struggle, because some of our younger players aren't good or big enough at the moment.

It wasn't an issue for us last year against the best scrummaging sides we faced either (LAR, Toulouse) by the way. Porter handled Atonio fine and has handled Malherbe fine too in the recent Autumn test.

[wixfjord]

The cupboard looks bare?

There is plenty of young talent at prop in the leinster system, even if you don't include Vakh, who I dont think has been hyped up at all.

But you're talking about this season right?

So the reality is the cupboard is bare if you look at guys who are ready to play senior rugby.

At the moment we have Milne on the LH side and Vakh/Clarkson on the TH side.

Neither of those three strike me with any confidence against a big scrummaging team.

Plenty of young hyped up props coming behind them, but a long way off being senior players yet, and certainly not this season.