Can't say I feel THs should be maturing at the same rate as LHs. The removal of the hit and greater emphasis on an isometric load on props especially the TH supports this for me.hugonaut wrote: ↑January 10th, 2023, 9:28 pmWith regards to the younger players, I thought that Clarkson might be a little bit further on than he is. He got really good reviews when he was in the academy, staff were very impressed by him. In fairness, he's only 22 [23 next month]. I don't think he's miles off by any means, but I thought he would 5-10% further ahead than he is right now.mildlyinterested wrote: ↑January 9th, 2023, 2:40 pm Anyone worried that the Leinster scrum is going to be Leinster's achilles heal and the season will be over once we meet a decent scrummaging team with a strict(french) ref?
seems to me that once Furlong and Porter have to go off, Leinster are in trouble... not to mention Porter isn't exactly rock solid at times or Furlongs injury issues this season.
It wouldn't be the first time Leinster's scrum was found out under McBryde...
Also any concern about the development of leinsters talented young props?
With that said, by the end of the 2012-13 season Jack McGrath was the same age as Clarkson is now, a couple of months away from 23 years old. Jack had played 4+13 [all league games] and Clarkson is on 8+13 [again, all league]. Gametime isn't the be-all-and-end-all, but it's useful to keep tabs on relative progression.
Obviously they play different sides of the scrum, but the comparison is pretty similar in a lot of other respects. Clarkson is listed as 185cm/118kg, Jack pretty much exactly the same. Both of them are quieter guys [compared to Tadgh or Cian, when he was younger], but hard-nosed. From what I have heard, Clarkson has the competitive edge that you would look for [in terms of his personality] as a professional prop. Not a guy who needed either the arm around the shoulder or the hairdryer treatment when he was in the academy.
Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Scrum is the single biggest concern for this Leinster side.
Agree with points made earlier in this thread, Fogarty did a good job at coaching a competitive, if not dominant, scrum
Agree with points made earlier in this thread, Fogarty did a good job at coaching a competitive, if not dominant, scrum
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
The reality is we’re very reliant on the front liners at scrum time. We need Furlong and at least one of Jenkins and McCarthy to be fit to be solid.
We lack real depth in the props at the moment too — second choice Ala’alatoa was penalised three times by my count today, and he got lifted out of the scrum against Ospreys. He has to be doing better than that.
I get that the lack of weight behind him is a factor there too, but we need to get to a point where we can lock the scrum in and not concede penalties.
We also don’t trust the third choice loosehead to even come on to the pitch until there’s zero chance they’ll lose the game for us. Healy is still solid enough in the scrum so not a huge issue when everyone is fit, but we miss Ed Byrne, or even Dooley right now.
We lack real depth in the props at the moment too — second choice Ala’alatoa was penalised three times by my count today, and he got lifted out of the scrum against Ospreys. He has to be doing better than that.
I get that the lack of weight behind him is a factor there too, but we need to get to a point where we can lock the scrum in and not concede penalties.
We also don’t trust the third choice loosehead to even come on to the pitch until there’s zero chance they’ll lose the game for us. Healy is still solid enough in the scrum so not a huge issue when everyone is fit, but we miss Ed Byrne, or even Dooley right now.
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt last week, with Deeny behind him. But he looked underpowered and found out today with Ryan behind him.
We basically need Porter, Furlong and Jenkins fit for the knock-out stages.
For the first time, I think we can manage without J10 (if JGP and Byrne are fit), and we have enough quality throughout the rest of the pitch.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Some detail on the scrum today.
Again, major over-reaction in my opinion.
https://www.leinsterfans.com/forum/view ... 55#p819455
Again, major over-reaction in my opinion.
https://www.leinsterfans.com/forum/view ... 55#p819455
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Yeah, it’s a good post for context. But I also think it obscures the fact that Gloucester did look to have a stronger scrum than us. We simply were able to mitigate it at times.
It also ignores the fact that Gloucester doesn’t really have a particularly strong scrum. So we should be hoping to do more than just survive against them.
I think people’s concern is for when we face sides that actually do have strong scrums, in a knock out game.
Even with our full front five, we’ll be doing well to deal with that, it seems. But, without Furlong and Jenkins, it’s not an overreaction to be concerned I think.
It also ignores the fact that Gloucester doesn’t really have a particularly strong scrum. So we should be hoping to do more than just survive against them.
I think people’s concern is for when we face sides that actually do have strong scrums, in a knock out game.
Even with our full front five, we’ll be doing well to deal with that, it seems. But, without Furlong and Jenkins, it’s not an overreaction to be concerned I think.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
See I don't think going into explicit detail about every scrum in the game is 'obscuring' anything. It's the opposite.curates_egg wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 7:31 am Yeah, it’s a good post for context. But I also think it obscures the fact that Gloucester did look to have a stronger scrum than us. We simply were able to mitigate it at times.
It also ignores the fact that Gloucester doesn’t really have a particularly strong scrum. So we should be hoping to do more than just survive against them.
I think people’s concern is for when we face sides that actually do have strong scrums, in a knock out game.
Even with our full front five, we’ll be doing well to deal with that, it seems. But, without Furlong and Jenkins, it’s not an overreaction to be concerned I think.
Glos had 1 more penalty than us because they were looking for penalties and we were looking for as quick ball as possible to attack them.
We actually used the scrum more effectively than they did if you look at the huge gains in yardage made by Doris & JGP multiple times.
Have a look at the scrum at 12.58 for an example. That was a pen to us if we had left it in, but we went quick and made 25-30 yards with quick ball.
Likewise on 19.40 we go quick and make another 20+ yards through JGP.
If you want to actually analyse our scrum, analyse why we choose to have lighter, more dynamic props/hookers and why yesterday we chose to not keep the ball in the scrum to try milk penalties.
I've said above that without key players we're going to be under pressure. But yesterday once again the scrum was fine and we have people saying stuff like Mike was 'found out' and gave away 3 penalties. He gave away 1 penalty and really the issue was Milne, who we know is an issue.
We also had people in the match thread blaming McBryde's coaching for one specific penalty which was a bit weird.
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
No, it’s not.
The detail of all those scrums obscures the bigger picture that a not particularly strong scrummaging side looked far more powerful than us.
The fact we managed ok, in those circumstances, is probably reflective of good coaching though, rather than bad, as Mildly contends.
However, I think the truth is in the middle of the two of you.
We look like we are vulnerable to good scrummaging sides, and our mitigating tactics may not be enough.
I don’t think it’s controversial to acknowledge that.
In fact, you and I are more or less saying the thing: we’ll struggle without a few players.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Yesterday's scrum was a masterclass in reputation based refereeing and top level referees being unable and unwilling to understand how scrums actually work. Ignore all the mystique about dark arts, scrums are simple physics in action.
The referee came into the match with the expectation that Gloucester had the better scrum, and so on calls when he didn't know what had actually caused a scrum issue, he went with that expectation.
One such case was how we saw Mike and Dan getting stood up in the scrum. The underlying cause was the Gloucester LH boring in at an angle, and you could clearly see repeatedly from the TV shots during binding that the LH was deliberately not bringing his right shoulder through so to immediately engage at an angle. With this he can drive under and up Mike. Simple physics in action, but talked about as dark arts. This isn't hard to see ahead of or during the scrum, but a vast majority of refs, supporters, past and present players, and the media have no interest in actually learning about the scrum.
Another case that benefited us was when Healy came on and we got the penalty for their LH not binding. Healy had prevented the LH from getting a bind initially. The LH was then a bit thick flapping his arm around instead of just getting any bind possible, which alerted the ref to him not being bound. But the original offence was Healy's, and had the ref or linesman had been doing their job, they would have penalised him.
The referee came into the match with the expectation that Gloucester had the better scrum, and so on calls when he didn't know what had actually caused a scrum issue, he went with that expectation.
One such case was how we saw Mike and Dan getting stood up in the scrum. The underlying cause was the Gloucester LH boring in at an angle, and you could clearly see repeatedly from the TV shots during binding that the LH was deliberately not bringing his right shoulder through so to immediately engage at an angle. With this he can drive under and up Mike. Simple physics in action, but talked about as dark arts. This isn't hard to see ahead of or during the scrum, but a vast majority of refs, supporters, past and present players, and the media have no interest in actually learning about the scrum.
Another case that benefited us was when Healy came on and we got the penalty for their LH not binding. Healy had prevented the LH from getting a bind initially. The LH was then a bit thick flapping his arm around instead of just getting any bind possible, which alerted the ref to him not being bound. But the original offence was Healy's, and had the ref or linesman had been doing their job, they would have penalised him.
Anyone But New Zealand
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
They didn't at all. Read the post and have a look at the time stamped scrums if you wish. It's all there in explicit, objective detail.curates_egg wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 11:10 amNo, it’s not.
The detail of all those scrums obscures the bigger picture that a not particularly strong scrummaging side looked far more powerful than us.
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
I did read the post and look at the clips. It’s a great post.wixfjord wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 11:12 amThey didn't at all. Read the post and have a look at the time stamped scrums if you wish. It's all there in explicit, objective detail.curates_egg wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 11:10 amNo, it’s not.
The detail of all those scrums obscures the bigger picture that a not particularly strong scrummaging side looked far more powerful than us.
I just disagree with your interpretation of what it shows.
I believe it shows that we managed fairly well against a more powerful but technically average scrum. But it doesn’t change the fact that we have an underpowered scrum…for me.
Last week, we came up against a good and powerful scrum and had our asses handed to us…despite having the same front row. We couldn’t mitigate that. And I (and lots of people) have doubts about our ability to manage against sides like the Bulls or La Rochelle, particularly without Porter, Furlong and/or Jenkins.
I would imagine even you do. You essentially acknowledge as much.
Like you, I’m not convinced that coaching would change that though. It’s part of the trade off with our personnel, which brings lots of benefits.
It may not mean we lose a knock out game against the strong scrummaging sides, but it is definitely a deficit we have to overcome. If we have all of Porter, Furlong and Jenkins fit, I would be very confident.
If we’re missing two of them, I would be worried.
Not really controversial.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
We didn’t have the same front row last week.
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
No. But people are picking and choosing what counts on this thread. So I just thought you might as well get the front row right. Last week we also had Deeney and Molony in the second row. It might have been BJ Botha on Twitter (can’t remember now but think it was him) who put up stuff about the Leinster second row and flankers last week not helping in the scrum and what it means to the front row, they had some short videos as well. Interesting stuff.curates_egg wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 11:56 amMy bad. Forgot Porter got a rest last week.
Do you think his being there would have changed things? I'm not convinced he - on his own - would have. It's not like Healy is a weak scrummager.
Any team who are missing people regularly who make that thing a much stronger weapon are always going to struggle more and be missed.
I don’t think mildly is being remotely fair on his take, he’s trying to blame McBryde which he’s been doing for a few years now I don’t know what he has against the man. He started this latest angle after the Leicester match last season which it was acknowledged after the game that a few of Genge’s penalty wins should have went the other way.
Here’s his take, every single big game he’s at it, he will eventually be right because the other teams we play are not sh!t. Our Achilles heel imo is that elements of our fan base can never give credit to our opponents. Some people lack humility., I’m comfortable that with Leo at the helm our team won’t become so lazy.
Before LaRochelle May 2022
Before Toulouse May 2022mildlyinterested wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 4:49 pm the scrums going to get mullered, can they survive that is the question.
mildlyinterested wrote: ↑May 12th, 2022, 12:09 pm
No i think we should win. But its going to be close and we could easily lose if the scrum doesnt hold up.
Leicester May 2022
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
One thing for sure is that, with a full selection, our scrum this season is stronger than last season. Jenkins alone has changed a lot. So it’s clearly not as big an issue this season.
I would also see a game like yesterday more as evidence of good coaching. In that, we clearly had strategies that successfully enabled us to use our scrum well and not give up too much.
Mike looks lighter this season, and I think he has to use technique to hold his own…which doesn’t always work.
The flipside of that is how effective he is around the park: his linebreak and try being a case in point.
I would also see a game like yesterday more as evidence of good coaching. In that, we clearly had strategies that successfully enabled us to use our scrum well and not give up too much.
Mike looks lighter this season, and I think he has to use technique to hold his own…which doesn’t always work.
The flipside of that is how effective he is around the park: his linebreak and try being a case in point.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
It wasn't an issue last season though.curates_egg wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 1:48 pm One thing for sure is that, with a full selection, our scrum this season is stronger than last season. Jenkins alone has changed a lot. So it’s clearly not as big an issue this season.
We beat Toulouse/Leicester who are two of the most fearsome scrums in Europe. Toulouse caused us little trouble at all and while Genge caused us issues in the QF, we had more than enough to overcome them.
In the final, the scrum wasn't an issue at all as has been outlined in this thread.
Against Bulls, again scrum wasn't the main issue and lineout/handling errors were what really cost us.
As has been pointed out above, one poster has a weird vendetta against McBryde, but seems unable to actually engage on any points in a substantive manner.
We don't need a dominant scrum. We need a scrum that's going to get parity and can give us the quick ball we thrive on. If we can get the right players (Jenkins, Furlong etc) on the pitch, we'll get that based on all available evidence.
If we can't and we need to rely on third/fourth choice props, we'll be under pressure. Literally every team in Europe would say the same thing.
Have we lost a game while being taken apart in the scrum since Sarries four years ago?
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
That's fair enough.
Our main 'Achilles' heel' has definitely been getting bullied by teams with big ball carriers and very physical rucks. That cost us again last year. I guess the big test will be when we come up against those teams.
I do think it is also fair to recognise that our scrum is certainly an area where good scrummaging teams can and do get at us. It hasn't 'cost us' big games in the same way as our main Achilles' heel but it is still an issue that could catch us out.
I disagree with your point about third/fourth choice though. I think that, as soon as you take away our first choice loosehead, tighthead and tighthead lock, we are going struggle. Healy doesn't look like he could go 70 plus minutes against a top side. Mike has been found wanting on a few occasions. For all his strengths, Ryan isn't a great tighthead scrummager. We don't know yet if McCarthy can play that role at the highest level.
Again, two points I would differ with Mildly on: our scrum is definitely not more of a problem this season; our issues don't really seem to be coaching related. Certainly, I would take the game yesterday as evidence to the contrary, in any case.
Our main 'Achilles' heel' has definitely been getting bullied by teams with big ball carriers and very physical rucks. That cost us again last year. I guess the big test will be when we come up against those teams.
I do think it is also fair to recognise that our scrum is certainly an area where good scrummaging teams can and do get at us. It hasn't 'cost us' big games in the same way as our main Achilles' heel but it is still an issue that could catch us out.
I disagree with your point about third/fourth choice though. I think that, as soon as you take away our first choice loosehead, tighthead and tighthead lock, we are going struggle. Healy doesn't look like he could go 70 plus minutes against a top side. Mike has been found wanting on a few occasions. For all his strengths, Ryan isn't a great tighthead scrummager. We don't know yet if McCarthy can play that role at the highest level.
Again, two points I would differ with Mildly on: our scrum is definitely not more of a problem this season; our issues don't really seem to be coaching related. Certainly, I would take the game yesterday as evidence to the contrary, in any case.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Whatever about anything else, 125kg Michael Ala'alatoa, the heaviest man in our squad by my reckoning and according to Leinster's data, is not 'too light'.
Edit - You've edited that there, which is fair enough.
Edit - You've edited that there, which is fair enough.
Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
Technique is also important.
Further, power is not the same as weight or size. Eben Etzebeth and Frank Bradshaw-Ryan are almost exactly the same height and weight, but obviously vastly different in terms of athleticism and power, and the impact they make in collisions or at the scrum.
Ala'alatoa at 125-130kg is a good player but has nowhere near the impact of, say, CJ van der Linde at his pre-Leinster peak, who was nonetheless a similar height/weight.
Further, power is not the same as weight or size. Eben Etzebeth and Frank Bradshaw-Ryan are almost exactly the same height and weight, but obviously vastly different in terms of athleticism and power, and the impact they make in collisions or at the scrum.
Ala'alatoa at 125-130kg is a good player but has nowhere near the impact of, say, CJ van der Linde at his pre-Leinster peak, who was nonetheless a similar height/weight.
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Re: Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???
None of that is being debated though.neiliog93 wrote: ↑January 15th, 2023, 4:28 pm Technique is also important.
Further, power is not the same as weight or size. Eben Etzebeth and Frank Bradshaw-Ryan are almost exactly the same height and weight, but obviously vastly different in terms of athleticism and power, and the impact they make in collisions or at the scrum.
Ala'alatoa at 125-130kg is a good player but has nowhere near the impact of, say, CJ van der Linde at his pre-Leinster peak, who was nonetheless a similar height/weight.
In terms of actual weight, Ala'alatoa isn't an issue as was said above before it was edited.