Leinsters Scrum = Achilles heel???

[Ruckedtobits]

Subject to the availability of Porter, Furlong, Cian and Big Mike and the presence of a fully fit Jason Jenkins, I am confident that Leinster has a scrum capable of meeting our playing style requirements against any European opposition.

I am a small bit concerned that we appear to have diverted away from our proven strategy in defensive line-out mauls by competing in the air too often and, critically, within 7-10m from our line.

Attacking an opposition line-out fatally weakens your maul formation. IMO, attacking an opposition line-out should rarely be done because surprise is the biggest weapon you have in this regard. Setting and focusing on your groundwork in a defensive line-out maul is the key component and throughout 2022 Leinster and Ireland have improved their maul defence.

Peter O'Mahony's unique line-out ability has provided Munster and Ireland with a great defensive skill. We don't have his ability within our pack, at present, and we should forget about trying to replicate it in European games, within 10m of our line.

Work on what works, not on what you would like to work, is an old adage from my coaching days. It doesn't mean you never try something new. It means that you only try something new when the outcome of failure isn't fatal.

[Laighin Break]

On the other hand, is it not better to practice in a game where the result isn't in doubt, rather than in a close game where conceding a try could actually be 'fatal'?

[Ruckedtobits]

On the other hand, is it not better to practice in a game where the result isn't in doubt, rather than in a close game where conceding a try could actually be 'fatal'?

We did. Result, two penalty tries.

[Laighin Break]

On the other hand, is it not better to practice in a game where the result isn't in doubt, rather than in a close game where conceding a try could actually be 'fatal'?

We did. Result, two penalty tries.

Yep, and the game still comfortably won.
Hopefully they can review the lineouts and work out a better strategy for disrupting it next time. Or alternatively, maybe they now know it's not a goer, and will just prepare for a defensive maul instead.

[mildlyinterested]

We didn’t have the same front row last week.

My bad. Forgot Porter got a rest last week.

Do you think his being there would have changed things? I'm not convinced he - on his own - would have. It's not like Healy is a weak scrummager.

No. But people are picking and choosing what counts on this thread. So I just thought you might as well get the front row right. Last week we also had Deeney and Molony in the second row. It might have been BJ Botha on Twitter (can’t remember now but think it was him) who put up stuff about the Leinster second row and flankers last week not helping in the scrum and what it means to the front row, they had some short videos as well. Interesting stuff.

Any team who are missing people regularly who make that thing a much stronger weapon are always going to struggle more and be missed.

I don’t think mildly is being remotely fair on his take, he’s trying to blame McBryde which he’s been doing for a few years now I don’t know what he has against the man. He started this latest angle after the Leicester match last season which it was acknowledged after the game that a few of Genge’s penalty wins should have went the other way.


Here’s his take, every single big game he’s at it, he will eventually be right because the other teams we play are not sh!t. Our Achilles heel imo is that elements of our fan base can never give credit to our opponents. Some people lack humility., I’m comfortable that with Leo at the helm our team won’t become so lazy.


Before LaRochelle May 2022

the scrums going to get mullered, can they survive that is the question.

Before Toulouse May 2022

No i think we should win. But its going to be close and we could easily lose if the scrum doesnt hold up.

The scrum this weekend could be ugly for Leinster.

Leicester May 2022

Leinsters scrum is a mess

those quotes are from late last season when the scrum was creaking and it continues to creak.

But certainly i wasnt a fan of his post Saracens dismantling our scrum and generally either the scrum/lineout being found out in big games while he has been scrum/forwards coach.

[Flash Gordon]

Subject to the availability of Porter, Furlong, Cian and Big Mike and the presence of a fully fit Jason Jenkins, I am confident that Leinster has a scrum capable of meeting our playing style requirements against any European opposition.

I am a small bit concerned that we appear to have diverted away from our proven strategy in defensive line-out mauls by competing in the air too often and, critically, within 7-10m from our line.

Attacking an opposition line-out fatally weakens your maul formation. IMO, attacking an opposition line-out should rarely be done because surprise is the biggest weapon you have in this regard. Setting and focusing on your groundwork in a defensive line-out maul is the key component and throughout 2022 Leinster and Ireland have improved their maul defence.

Peter O'Mahony's unique line-out ability has provided Munster and Ireland with a great defensive skill. We don't have his ability within our pack, at present, and we should forget about trying to replicate it in European games, within 10m of our line.

Work on what works, not on what you would like to work, is an old adage from my coaching days. It doesn't mean you never try something new. It means that you only try something new when the outcome of failure isn't fatal.

We conceded 2 tries and cards by launching a man. The reality if that most teams win their lineouts 8 times out of 10. Great if you have a big cushion but in a tight game against a big powerful pack that's suicide.

Been reading the comments on the scrum. With our first choice starters and subs we are fine, beyond that you have a fair serious drop off in level. Given that Furlong is often injured/unavailable and that Church is 35 and given that Jenkins has spent most of his time in Ireland injured I think there is definite cause for concern.

You'd like to think that as a top team you are able to attack in all facets of the game against other top teams our scrum doesn't do that. The best we could do in last year's final was survival, which to be fair we did effectively. We didn't lose to La Rochelle because of our scrum.

[ronk]

Leinster's Achilles heel's are that our attacking game is built on a defence eventually cracking under the pressure we put it under faster than our attack cracks due to mistakes. And that our defence doesn't can hold the line without needing to take risks at the breakdown that give away penalties.

The very top teams, when playing at the very top of their game can sometimes shut us down. What will be interesting to see is our 5m tap variation. It's doing well now, will it hold up in a Heineken Cup final, do we go to plan B at the right time and will that be enough?

Gloucester rolled a ball in a fast unstable manner and it was an instant penalty try. We don't win many penalty tries because Sheehan scores anyway when they collapse. We might want to have a look at that from both sides. Conceding 2 tries from the maul would have been easier for us.

[Flash Gordon]

Leinster's Achilles heel's are that our attacking game is built on a defence eventually cracking under the pressure we put it under faster than our attack cracks due to mistakes. And that our defence doesn't can hold the line without needing to take risks at the breakdown that give away penalties.

The very top teams, when playing at the very top of their game can sometimes shut us down. What will be interesting to see is our 5m tap variation. It's doing well now, will it hold up in a Heineken Cup final, do we go to plan B at the right time and will that be enough?

Gloucester rolled a ball in a fast unstable manner and it was an instant penalty try. We don't win many penalty tries because Sheehan scores anyway when they collapse. We might want to have a look at that from both sides. Conceding 2 tries from the maul would have been easier for us.

Yeah a deliberate pull down is always a penalty try and yellow now, just not worth it, you'll always get caught.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

With the way the rules of rugby are going....isn't the scrum next on the list of big changes, on the way.....where mobility, ball handling skills and pace trumps monster forwards in the shape of Will Skelton.

Ospreys scrum gave us a lot of grief last week. That was, pretty much, the welsh pack and Gatland will have taken note, no doubt. Looking forward to the game. Was there in 2019 when they gave us a proper shellacking to win the grand slam.

[Morf]

Leinster's Achilles heel's are that our attacking game is built on a defence eventually cracking under the pressure we put it under faster than our attack cracks due to mistakes. And that our defence doesn't can hold the line without needing to take risks at the breakdown that give away penalties.

The very top teams, when playing at the very top of their game can sometimes shut us down. What will be interesting to see is our 5m tap variation. It's doing well now, will it hold up in a Heineken Cup final, do we go to plan B at the right time and will that be enough?

Gloucester rolled a ball in a fast unstable manner and it was an instant penalty try. We don't win many penalty tries because Sheehan scores anyway when they collapse. We might want to have a look at that from both sides. Conceding 2 tries from the maul would have been easier for us.

Yeah a deliberate pull down is always a penalty try and yellow now, just not worth it, you'll always get caught.

I have no doubt forward coaches are aware of ways to make it look like a defender in the mall has dragged it down just like we see players pinned at the back of rucks.

Why settle for 5 and a conversation when you can turn your supremacy into 7 and a yellow without too much scrutiny from officials?

[Flash Gordon]

With the way the rules of rugby are going....isn't the scrum next on the list of big changes, on the way.....where mobility, ball handling skills and pace trumps monster forwards in the shape of Will Skelton.

Ospreys scrum gave us a lot of grief last week. That was, pretty much, the welsh pack and Gatland will have taken note, no doubt. Looking forward to the game. Was there in 2019 when they gave us a proper shellacking to win the grand slam.

Think they've done a pretty good job in terms of evolving the reffing of the scrum. Years ago you could be 7-8 minutes setting a scrum now it's all pretty quick and refs, touch judges and TMO's are watching everything. With 30 fit men on the pitch there's always going to be a role for power and strength I'd imagine.

[mildlyinterested]

taken from elsewhere;

URC scrum offences vs pens won, percentage won

Leinster: 45 / 17, 92%
Munster: 36 / 12, 93%
Ulster: 24 / 11, 91%
Connacht: 22/21, 95%

Tom Clarkson has 11 scrum offences in 185 mins played and 10 pens conceded.

[enby]

I'd be interested in seeing the equivalent figures for each province in matches against non-Irish sides only. At first glance those numbers might suggest that refs have a predetermined view that Irish teams are dodgy at scrum time.

[Schumi]

I'd be interested in seeing the equivalent figures for each province in matches against non-Irish sides only. At first glance those numbers might suggest that refs have a predetermined view that Irish teams are dodgy at scrum time.

Except for Connacht?

[IanD]

Scrum not going to be a problem according to this.

RTE news : Scrum down - trend sends set-piece backwards

http://www.rte.ie/sport/six-nations/202 ... backwards/

[ronk]

Edinburgh went after our young scrum, but did it do them a lot of good. They got a shove on for the first scrum the replacement front row had to deal with. But Leinster launched well and Turner had a clean midfield break that led to a disallowed try.

Leinster dropped 2 goal line moves and had 2 tries disallowed. The subs were good, the drop off doesn't need to be huge. That was 4 defensive scrums straightaway (in positions where it would suit Edinburgh to go for a secondary shove) in a game where there hadn't been a lot of scrums up to then.

There weren't great camera angles but I thought a few of the decisions were harsh or outright wrong. There was one in particular that was called for collapsing well after the ball was out and with the scrum up.

Clarkson needs to get better and also to present a better picture, but it should also be seen in context that he's a 23 year old tighthead playing away with a young pack who scrummaged with a 7 man pack for 10 minutes. He'll have better days.

[mildlyinterested]

Scrum offences in URC:

Tom Clarkson: 11
Andrew Porter: 6
Michael Milne: 4
Mike Alaalatoa: 3
Ed Byrne: 3
Cian Healy: 2
John McKee: 2
Lee Barron: 1
Dan Sheehan: 1

[riocard911]

Edinburgh went after our young scrum, but did it do them a lot of good. They got a shove on for the first scrum the replacement front row had to deal with. But Leinster launched well and Turner had a clean midfield break that led to a disallowed try.

Leinster dropped 2 goal line moves and had 2 tries disallowed. The subs were good, the drop off doesn't need to be huge. That was 4 defensive scrums straightaway (in positions where it would suit Edinburgh to go for a secondary shove) in a game where there hadn't been a lot of scrums up to then.

There weren't great camera angles but I thought a few of the decisions were harsh or outright wrong. There was one in particular that was called for collapsing well after the ball was out and with the scrum up.

Clarkson needs to get better and also to present a better picture, but it should also be seen in context that he's a 23 year old tighthead playing away with a young pack who scrummaged with a 7 man pack for 10 minutes. He'll have better days.

+1

[curates_egg]

Thought it would be a good time to revive this thread. After the brave efforts of our essentially rookie front row on Sunday, combined with the problems we saw with the Ireland/Leinster scrum at the world cup.

There are far fewer scrums in the game, particularly how we play. However, there are proportionally far more scrum penalties, which can play decisive roles in close games.

What does this mean for us?

Loosehead:
Lots of hope around the two youngest looseheads - Boyle (21) and McCarthy (20) - but it's clear neither is yet ready for scrummaging at this level. Worth noting that Porter and Healy broke through at their age though.

Porter (27) - Despite being a superb rugby player, I think it's fair to say there are lots of questions about his scrummaging. He's only in his third season there though, so maybe this can still be coached?
Healy (36) - Presumably in his last season.
Byrne (30) - Solid if unspectacular. Injury profile a concern.
Milne (24) - Has looked very good in the loose, but still questions about scrummaging. Is this coachable?

Tighthead:
Not as much hype around the younger tightheads - McGuire (21) and Lasisi (22) - but maybe that's no bad thing.

Furlong (30) - World class player and scrummager, who seems to have lost his mojo over the past few years. He seems to need a reboot and the current strategy - playing him constantly as soon as he gets back from the latest injury - does not appear to be working.
Alalatoaa (32) - Has done fine for us but found wanting in big games, including at scrum time.
Clarkson (24) - Still lots of questions unfortunately.

There appears to be a need to work on the scrummaging of some of our talented looseheads.

Hard to escape the conclusion that we need to sign a good scrummaging tighthead though. Seeing yet another good Munster import make his debut yesterday, really makes you wonder why the other provinces aren't given the same leeway to sign players in problem positions.

[ronk]

There are 3 tightheads between 22 and 26 at other provinces who were poached from Leinster. A 27 year old Lions tighthead was moved across to suit the Ireland team. Our first 3 tightheads are all at the RWC.

We developed players, we weren't allowed keep them and its created a 7 year age gap in the squad between Furlong and Clarkson. It was always gonna take years to recover, even with Alaalatoa.

It's not pretty but it's the hand we were dealt. Clarkson is a better player than he's given credit for. Glasgow knew we wouldn't rush Furlong back so they went all out in the scrums.