"That Song"

[ronk]

Cop yourselves on a bit lads. I think the dismissal of Swing low as just a "Dick Joke" just shows how uneducated some people here are on the subject yet they expect whoever hit play on a spotify playlist to be sacked, or the classification of the Wolfe Tones as sectarian, You realise they've recorded unionist songs like the sash yeah? Very sectarian...

Those are all points from different people, so it's a straw man argument to point out any inconsistencies. Swing Low wasn't dismissed as a dick joke. It was described as problematic and that part of its history was explored in terms of expanding on why some people have an issue with it.

The Wolfe Tones most well known songs are infamous. I can't see why anyone who doesn't agree with those songs would be expected to have an in depth knowledge of their back-catalogue. I probably wouldn't recognise most of their songs. In you really want to improve the standard of debate you wouldn't start it with a personal attack on the education of the other side.

A lot of people wouldn't like to hear less controversial songs by them or even innocuous covers. But that's not really the debate here: a very divisive song was played that many people have very strong negative feelings about, others like it, some don't care. It was an accident, Leinster Rugby apologised and have taken steps to prevent it happening in future.

Football has an entirely different history with objectionable songs and chants, but you probably know more about that than I do. I can't imagine why you expect Irish politicians to defend Irish sports representatives from singing songs that they disagree with and discourage and that caused a minor diplomatic incident they needed to apologise for. That's not spinelessness.

[ronk]

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/n ... 58143.html

Seen as Nigel Carr has been mentioned he has had his say on it

Paywall. Care to summarise?

[Workhorse]

Cop yourselves on a bit lads. I think the dismissal of Swing low as just a "Dick Joke" just shows how uneducated some people here are on the subject yet they expect whoever hit play on a spotify playlist to be sacked, or the classification of the Wolfe Tones as sectarian, You realise they've recorded unionist songs like the sash yeah? Very sectarian...

Those are all points from different people, so it's a straw man argument to point out any inconsistencies. Swing Low wasn't dismissed as a dick joke. It was described as problematic and that part of its history was explored in terms of expanding on why some people have an issue with it.

The Wolfe Tones most well known songs are infamous. I can't see why anyone who doesn't agree with those songs would be expected to have an in depth knowledge of their back-catalogue. I probably wouldn't recognise most of their songs. In you really want to improve the standard of debate you wouldn't start it with a personal attack on the education of the other side.

A lot of people wouldn't like to hear less controversial songs by them or even innocuous covers. But that's not really the debate here: a very divisive song was played that many people have very strong negative feelings about, others like it, some don't care. It was an accident, Leinster Rugby apologised and have taken steps to prevent it happening in future.

Football has an entirely different history with objectionable songs and chants, but you probably know more about that than I do. I can't imagine why you expect Irish politicians to defend Irish sports representatives from singing songs that they disagree with and discourage and that caused a minor diplomatic incident they needed to apologise for. That's not spinelessness.

It was literally you that dismissed it as a dick joke

Can the thread be split?

Big mistake with the song, doesn't look good for the game. Doubt it is intentional however, it makes it no less tone deaf as the Twickenham crowd and Swing Low

"Up the ra" isn't a dick joke.

People who don't like them aren't expected to have an in depth knowledge of the Wolfe Tones back catalog, people who label them sectarian should or else they're simply talking $hite from an uneducated POV. I'll attack the uneducated nature of an argument when it is uneducated, because if people aren't called out on the fact they don't know what theyre talking about they'll continue to spout uneducated nonsense.

A lot of people wouldn't like to hear Katy Perry at Leinster games, don't see threads dedicated to it... I explicitly said multiple times that particular song probably shouldn't be played at Leinster games, to try ban the Wolfe Tones as a whole is mental. I've bad news for you, our national anthem is no "lets all join hands with eachother and all be friends" so if you've a problem with all Wolfe Tones songs you've a problem with that too.

Nobody said anything about defending them, certain Irish politicians encouraged a pile on on a team that has done more good representing this country in the last 12 months than any of them have put together their entire careers. They did it for 3 reasons, the team consisted of women, women mostly from backgrounds not known for voting FG, playing a sport not synonymous with FG supporters. It really is that simple, the fact that within hours politicians had used it to point score against SF, without anyone from SF being even remotely involved says it all. On the other hand the silence from those same politicians about Sunday was deafening. As I said, spineless.

[berliner]

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/n ... 58143.html

Seen as Nigel Carr has been mentioned he has had his say on it

Paywall. Care to summarise?

FORMER ULSTER PLAYER AND IRA VICTIM NIGEL CARR SAYS LEINSTER CELTIC
SYMPHONY INCIDENT SHOULD NOT DRAG US BACK

Former Ulster and Ireland rugby player Nigel Carr, who had his
promising career cut short due to an IRA bomb in 1987, believes the
playing of a controversial republican song at Leinster Rugby’s
ground is “unfortunate”, but it “should not set us back”.

The United Rugby Championship side apologised after the controversial
‘Celtic Symphony' song by The Wolfe Tones was played at the
province’s Dublin stadium after their league win over Connacht on
Sunday night.

The song, which features the lyrics 'Ooh Ah, Up the Ra!', came on over
the Tannoy as the players did a lap of honour after their 41-12 win
and was faded out after one verse and chorus.

Mr Carr said he doesn’t see the incident as something “which is
worth carrying on”.

“I believe they made a mistake and I think they would accept
that,” he said. “I wouldn’t wish to see any loyalist atrocities
or activity glorified, nor would I wish to see that in any of the
nationalist sides in any way.

“We’ve come a long way since back in the day when I was playing
rugby.

"Rugby itself has moved on and a lot of people’s opinions on the
island of Ireland in relation to politics have moved on a fair bit as
well, and I would hope we keep moving in the right direction.”

Following the incident, a Leinster spokesperson said the song was
played over the PA at the RDS Arena “that shouldn’t have been
played”.

"Leinster Rugby has taken measures to ensure it doesn’t happen again
and apologises sincerely for its use and for any offence caused,”
the club added.

Mr Carr said: “the whole thing is unfortunate, as it would be for
anything that might glorify terrorism or the atrocities that went on
here”.

The player-turned-broadcaster continued: “Obviously, people have
very different political persuasions. I think going about those
aspirations in a way which doesn't kill or murder others is the way
forward and the vast majority of the population would see it that
way.”

Now aged 63, Mr Carr was ranked as the No.1 flanker in the world by a
prominent rugby magazine in 1987, shortly before he was injured in an
IRA car bomb attack.

The target of the 500lb bomb near Killean in Co Armagh, was Northern
Ireland’s second most senior judge, Lord Justice Sir Maurice
Gibson, who died in the blast along with his wife, Lady Cecily
Gibson.

Mr Carr had been travelling in the opposite direction, going to Dublin
from Belfast for international training with his teammates, David
Irwin and Philip Rainey.

Whilst the latter two sustained minor injuries and went on to play
for Ulster for many more years, Mr Carr’s professional rugby career
was effectively ended.

He was capped 11 times for Ireland before the attack. 

“There’s an awful lot worse that has gone on in the years since I
was affected by it,” he noted.

“There’s still those people planning and organising activities
which are significantly worse than that [playing Celtic Symphony].

“I think it’s unfortunate whenever people are doing things like
this and they maybe don’t appreciate the impact it has on other
lives much more than mine, because I came out of it with injuries that
just stopped me from playing rugby again; others came out having lost
loved ones and lost their own lives.

“It shouldn’t be a big blow and I don’t have a particularly
strong opinion on it, but I hope the organisations involved would
learn from it and those that could possibly fall into the same trap
will learn from it as well, and we can all move forward together
peacefully in the future.”

Last year, Mr Carr was awarded an MBE by the late Queen for his
contribution to sport and community relations in Northern Ireland.

He has also been passionate about establishing a museum that
encompasses all of Northern Ireland’s sporting greats in one place,
and he became a prominent sports presenter for UTV in the years
following the incident that halted his own playing days.

“I am a great advocate of sport, particularly in a Northern Ireland
context, it has got great potential to bring people together,” said
the Co Down man.

“One would hope it [the Leinster Rugby incident] is a blip and I
would hope that various bodies - even those not related to sports -
would learn from previous incidents.

“You would hope that Leinster Rugby try and do more in the future to
make sure these types of things don't occur.

"There’s always going to be these sorts of things that pop up every
now and again, that annoy one side or the other, perhaps a good
proportion of both.

“I don’t think that really knocks us back in a huge way and you
would hope it would be some time before we see anything like this
again.”

[Oldschoolsocks]

Lads this thread reads like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum... If people ever ask why rugby in Ireland isn't more popular in more working class areas I'm just going to point them towards here.
Shinners are this, Sack the DJ, Celtic FC is that, the Wolfe Tones are that, Players don't get opinions that don't toe party line. intermixing Sinn Fein and IRA.
Cop yourselves on a bit lads. I think the dismissal of Swing low as just a "Dick Joke" just shows how uneducated some people here are on the subject yet they expect whoever hit play on a spotify playlist to be sacked, or the classification of the Wolfe Tones as sectarian, You realise they've recorded unionist songs like the sash yeah? Very sectarian...

Quite frankly (my dear) I couldn't give a damn about what anyone thinks of the song, personally I see no problem with it because I know and understand the context of it. Much like Fairytale of New York I believe its for each individual to decide if they agree with it being played or not, because I can see why some won't like it. I have no problem with either side having the opinion they decide upon, but don't try force that opinion upon others. Does that include playing it at public events where its not part of the show? Probably. Does it include allowing players to say they have no problem with the song? Definitely.
What I will say is the song has been played at games before and nobody has given a monkeys, this outrage is all simply because the womens football team beat Scotland, in Scotland, and the UK establishment does not like to be seen to be losing to Ireland, particularly not on home turf, and thus changed the narrative, and our spineless politicians allowed, and encouraged, that to happen, because womens football team are an easy target for the political elite, notice none of those politicians have said anything about Leinster playing it? Because of that now everyone wants to be seen as against it to fit in with the outrage.

Some here have pushed the blame onto people under 30 and said they see it as just a song because they don't understand what the (which one again?) IRA did. Maybe that's true for some, maybe others understand perfectly what the IRA (all incarnations) did and simply see the inclusion of those words as part of telling the story the song is telling. Remember lads, it doesn't say "up the provos" you're putting words in peoples mouths by assuming the song is in support of what the provos did in the 80's. A lot of people here would do well to learn about why Celtic was founded (including its pronunciation) and what Glasgow was like for Irish people from that time right through to arguably today. It goes a long way to explaining the song.

So my words wont be twisted, should the song be played by the PA at Leinster Rugby matches? Probably not, the Wolfe Tones have much more appropriate songs that can be played without the potential to cause offence. Players have the right to sing it themselves though and to defend its being played without being attacked and called ignorant.

OK, as a man who is proud of my working class roots having been raised on a very working class area please allow me to respond.

There is no context where "ooh aah up the ra" does not mean "The Provisional IRA are grand lads". The chant normalises the murdering b$&%@#ds who terrorised communities north and south of the border for most of my youth.

that is all...

[Dave Cahill]

The majority of C2, D, and E voters in Ireland vote for Fianna Fail. The increase in Sinn Fein support in recent years has come from C1s, who traditionally vote Fine Gael. The idea that there is some kind of monolithic 'working-class' support for the Wolfe Tones (or anything really) is really ridiculous - young working-class people don't have posters of the Warfields on their walls, they're listening to Selló (career goals: “buying football teams, buying the Airtricity League, and maybe a share in the Leinster team…”)

[Workhorse]

The majority of C2, D, and E voters in Ireland vote for Fianna Fail. The increase in Sinn Fein support in recent years has come from C1s, who traditionally vote Fine Gael. The idea that there is some kind of monolithic 'working-class' support for the Wolfe Tones (or anything really) is really ridiculous - young working-class people don't have posters of the Warfields on their walls, they're listening to Selló (career goals: “buying football teams, buying the Airtricity League, and maybe a share in the Leinster team…”)

I never said anything of the sort. I said the tone of the whole thread was like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum, which it was (is). Believe it or not a lot, and I mean a lot, of the Leinster squad enjoy listening to the Wolfe Tones, not just Mr Porter.

The whole tone of this thread went as follows:
I don't like the song - The Wolfe Tones are Sectarian - Celtic are sectarian - Sack the low paid person who hit play - Someone doesn't 100% agree with my opinion? They support the IRA then - Young people are just thick and don't know history - This is all the Shinners fault.

It read word for word what I'd expect from an FG voters forum on the topic and if you are someone not from a traditional rugby area that is the mental image you get of rugbys support base and this thread would confirm that 100% to them.
It is exactly why tonnes of people from non rugby areas do not feel welcome in the sport (This is a fact not an opinion, there are tonnes of people who have explicitly said to me they enjoy watching the games on TV but don't think they'd feel welcome at them), do you guys not see that? The sport is F*£$ing expensive to play, go to, even to just watch a particular team. The attitude of the supporters is such an attitude of "You want into this club then you have to 100% agree with us on everything or we'll dismiss you". How do you expect people to feel welcome in an environment they can't afford to be in and if they pull the money together their views on things are just completely dismissed from the outset?

I'm not even talking about just people who like this song here, I'm talking about people who have a certain idea of what people who like rugby are like in Leinster and seeing the reaction to a song being played just cements that idea in their head as accurate.

[artaneboy]

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/n ... 58143.html

Seen as Nigel Carr has been mentioned he has had his say on it

Paywall. Care to summarise?

FORMER ULSTER PLAYER AND IRA VICTIM NIGEL CARR SAYS LEINSTER CELTIC
SYMPHONY INCIDENT SHOULD NOT DRAG US BACK

Former Ulster and Ireland rugby player Nigel Carr, who had his
promising career cut short due to an IRA bomb in 1987, believes the
playing of a controversial republican song at Leinster Rugby’s
ground is “unfortunate”, but it “should not set us back”.

The United Rugby Championship side apologised after the controversial
‘Celtic Symphony' song by The Wolfe Tones was played at the
province’s Dublin stadium after their league win over Connacht on
Sunday night.

The song, which features the lyrics 'Ooh Ah, Up the Ra!', came on over
the Tannoy as the players did a lap of honour after their 41-12 win
and was faded out after one verse and chorus.

Mr Carr said he doesn’t see the incident as something “which is
worth carrying on”.

“I believe they made a mistake and I think they would accept
that,” he said. “I wouldn’t wish to see any loyalist atrocities
or activity glorified, nor would I wish to see that in any of the
nationalist sides in any way.

“We’ve come a long way since back in the day when I was playing
rugby.

"Rugby itself has moved on and a lot of people’s opinions on the
island of Ireland in relation to politics have moved on a fair bit as
well, and I would hope we keep moving in the right direction.”

Following the incident, a Leinster spokesperson said the song was
played over the PA at the RDS Arena “that shouldn’t have been
played”.

"Leinster Rugby has taken measures to ensure it doesn’t happen again
and apologises sincerely for its use and for any offence caused,”
the club added.

Mr Carr said: “the whole thing is unfortunate, as it would be for
anything that might glorify terrorism or the atrocities that went on
here”.

The player-turned-broadcaster continued: “Obviously, people have
very different political persuasions. I think going about those
aspirations in a way which doesn't kill or murder others is the way
forward and the vast majority of the population would see it that
way.”

Now aged 63, Mr Carr was ranked as the No.1 flanker in the world by a
prominent rugby magazine in 1987, shortly before he was injured in an
IRA car bomb attack.

The target of the 500lb bomb near Killean in Co Armagh, was Northern
Ireland’s second most senior judge, Lord Justice Sir Maurice
Gibson, who died in the blast along with his wife, Lady Cecily
Gibson.

Mr Carr had been travelling in the opposite direction, going to Dublin
from Belfast for international training with his teammates, David
Irwin and Philip Rainey.

Whilst the latter two sustained minor injuries and went on to play
for Ulster for many more years, Mr Carr’s professional rugby career
was effectively ended.

He was capped 11 times for Ireland before the attack. 

“There’s an awful lot worse that has gone on in the years since I
was affected by it,” he noted.

“There’s still those people planning and organising activities
which are significantly worse than that [playing Celtic Symphony].

“I think it’s unfortunate whenever people are doing things like
this and they maybe don’t appreciate the impact it has on other
lives much more than mine, because I came out of it with injuries that
just stopped me from playing rugby again; others came out having lost
loved ones and lost their own lives.

“It shouldn’t be a big blow and I don’t have a particularly
strong opinion on it, but I hope the organisations involved would
learn from it and those that could possibly fall into the same trap
will learn from it as well, and we can all move forward together
peacefully in the future.”

Last year, Mr Carr was awarded an MBE by the late Queen for his
contribution to sport and community relations in Northern Ireland.

He has also been passionate about establishing a museum that
encompasses all of Northern Ireland’s sporting greats in one place,
and he became a prominent sports presenter for UTV in the years
following the incident that halted his own playing days.

“I am a great advocate of sport, particularly in a Northern Ireland
context, it has got great potential to bring people together,” said
the Co Down man.

“One would hope it [the Leinster Rugby incident] is a blip and I
would hope that various bodies - even those not related to sports -
would learn from previous incidents.

“You would hope that Leinster Rugby try and do more in the future to
make sure these types of things don't occur.

"There’s always going to be these sorts of things that pop up every
now and again, that annoy one side or the other, perhaps a good
proportion of both.

“I don’t think that really knocks us back in a huge way and you
would hope it would be some time before we see anything like this
again.”

I think the dignity and consideration in Nigel Carr's response above would be a useful coda to our bit of a barney here. Might be best to let him have the last word and learn from the experience.

[the spoofer]

The majority of C2, D, and E voters in Ireland vote for Fianna Fail. The increase in Sinn Fein support in recent years has come from C1s, who traditionally vote Fine Gael. The idea that there is some kind of monolithic 'working-class' support for the Wolfe Tones (or anything really) is really ridiculous - young working-class people don't have posters of the Warfields on their walls, they're listening to Selló (career goals: “buying football teams, buying the Airtricity League, and maybe a share in the Leinster team…”)

I never said anything of the sort. I said the tone of the whole thread was like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum, which it was (is). Believe it or not a lot, and I mean a lot, of the Leinster squad enjoy listening to the Wolfe Tones, not just Mr Porter.

The whole tone of this thread went as follows:
I don't like the song - The Wolfe Tones are Sectarian - Celtic are sectarian - Sack the low paid person who hit play - Someone doesn't 100% agree with my opinion? They support the IRA then - Young people are just thick and don't know history - This is all the Shinners fault.

It read word for word what I'd expect from an FG voters forum on the topic and if you are someone not from a traditional rugby area that is the mental image you get of rugbys support base and this thread would confirm that 100% to them.
It is exactly why tonnes of people from non rugby areas do not feel welcome in the sport (This is a fact not an opinion, there are tonnes of people who have explicitly said to me they enjoy watching the games on TV but don't think they'd feel welcome at them), do you guys not see that? The sport is F*£$ing expensive to play, go to, even to just watch a particular team. The attitude of the supporters is such an attitude of "You want into this club then you have to 100% agree with us on everything or we'll dismiss you". How do you expect people to feel welcome in an environment they can't afford to be in and if they pull the money together their views on things are just completely dismissed from the outset?

I'm not even talking about just people who like this song here, I'm talking about people who have a certain idea of what people who like rugby are like in Leinster and seeing the reaction to a song being played just cements that idea in their head as accurate.

That is some load of w&%k in 4 paragraphs.

[Workhorse]

The majority of C2, D, and E voters in Ireland vote for Fianna Fail. The increase in Sinn Fein support in recent years has come from C1s, who traditionally vote Fine Gael. The idea that there is some kind of monolithic 'working-class' support for the Wolfe Tones (or anything really) is really ridiculous - young working-class people don't have posters of the Warfields on their walls, they're listening to Selló (career goals: “buying football teams, buying the Airtricity League, and maybe a share in the Leinster team…”)

I never said anything of the sort. I said the tone of the whole thread was like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum, which it was (is). Believe it or not a lot, and I mean a lot, of the Leinster squad enjoy listening to the Wolfe Tones, not just Mr Porter.

The whole tone of this thread went as follows:
I don't like the song - The Wolfe Tones are Sectarian - Celtic are sectarian - Sack the low paid person who hit play - Someone doesn't 100% agree with my opinion? They support the IRA then - Young people are just thick and don't know history - This is all the Shinners fault.

It read word for word what I'd expect from an FG voters forum on the topic and if you are someone not from a traditional rugby area that is the mental image you get of rugbys support base and this thread would confirm that 100% to them.
It is exactly why tonnes of people from non rugby areas do not feel welcome in the sport (This is a fact not an opinion, there are tonnes of people who have explicitly said to me they enjoy watching the games on TV but don't think they'd feel welcome at them), do you guys not see that? The sport is F*£$ing expensive to play, go to, even to just watch a particular team. The attitude of the supporters is such an attitude of "You want into this club then you have to 100% agree with us on everything or we'll dismiss you". How do you expect people to feel welcome in an environment they can't afford to be in and if they pull the money together their views on things are just completely dismissed from the outset?

I'm not even talking about just people who like this song here, I'm talking about people who have a certain idea of what people who like rugby are like in Leinster and seeing the reaction to a song being played just cements that idea in their head as accurate.

That is some load of w&%k in 4 paragraphs.

Whats w@nk about it?
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do.
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is.
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do.

So what exactly there is "w@nk"?

[the spoofer]

I never said anything of the sort. I said the tone of the whole thread was like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum, which it was (is). Believe it or not a lot, and I mean a lot, of the Leinster squad enjoy listening to the Wolfe Tones, not just Mr Porter.

The whole tone of this thread went as follows:
I don't like the song - The Wolfe Tones are Sectarian - Celtic are sectarian - Sack the low paid person who hit play - Someone doesn't 100% agree with my opinion? They support the IRA then - Young people are just thick and don't know history - This is all the Shinners fault.

It read word for word what I'd expect from an FG voters forum on the topic and if you are someone not from a traditional rugby area that is the mental image you get of rugbys support base and this thread would confirm that 100% to them.
It is exactly why tonnes of people from non rugby areas do not feel welcome in the sport (This is a fact not an opinion, there are tonnes of people who have explicitly said to me they enjoy watching the games on TV but don't think they'd feel welcome at them), do you guys not see that? The sport is F*£$ing expensive to play, go to, even to just watch a particular team. The attitude of the supporters is such an attitude of "You want into this club then you have to 100% agree with us on everything or we'll dismiss you". How do you expect people to feel welcome in an environment they can't afford to be in and if they pull the money together their views on things are just completely dismissed from the outset?

I'm not even talking about just people who like this song here, I'm talking about people who have a certain idea of what people who like rugby are like in Leinster and seeing the reaction to a song being played just cements that idea in their head as accurate.

That is some load of w&%k in 4 paragraphs.

Whats w@nk about it?
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does. Your opinion, it reads like a variety of views, some of which I agree with, some I don't.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do. Good for them, millions of flies eat sh!t, that doesn't mean I have to.
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do. Dated bullshit, not where I live and it's as non rugby an area as you will get.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is. Bullshit, membership (full) of most clubs is about €100/150 pa for adults. It's €50 for kids in my club.
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back. No, I've expressed my hatred for the IRA and their fellow travellers as any right minded person would.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do. w&%k

So what exactly there is "w@nk"?

You have a particular point of view and have put forward your point through that prism. I think it's a load of bullshit but won't continue to engage. This monstrous f%~k up has done huge reputational damage to Leinster and that is a fact.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I never said anything of the sort. I said the tone of the whole thread was like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum, which it was (is). Believe it or not a lot, and I mean a lot, of the Leinster squad enjoy listening to the Wolfe Tones, not just Mr Porter.

The whole tone of this thread went as follows:
I don't like the song - The Wolfe Tones are Sectarian - Celtic are sectarian - Sack the low paid person who hit play - Someone doesn't 100% agree with my opinion? They support the IRA then - Young people are just thick and don't know history - This is all the Shinners fault.

It read word for word what I'd expect from an FG voters forum on the topic and if you are someone not from a traditional rugby area that is the mental image you get of rugbys support base and this thread would confirm that 100% to them.
It is exactly why tonnes of people from non rugby areas do not feel welcome in the sport (This is a fact not an opinion, there are tonnes of people who have explicitly said to me they enjoy watching the games on TV but don't think they'd feel welcome at them), do you guys not see that? The sport is F*£$ing expensive to play, go to, even to just watch a particular team. The attitude of the supporters is such an attitude of "You want into this club then you have to 100% agree with us on everything or we'll dismiss you". How do you expect people to feel welcome in an environment they can't afford to be in and if they pull the money together their views on things are just completely dismissed from the outset?

I'm not even talking about just people who like this song here, I'm talking about people who have a certain idea of what people who like rugby are like in Leinster and seeing the reaction to a song being played just cements that idea in their head as accurate.

That is some load of w&%k in 4 paragraphs.

Whats w@nk about it?
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does. - does it? really though? feels like this well is being well and truly poisoned
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do. - points to a poor education in politics, history and music theory, did the goys learn nothing of substance in Moikels and ROCK ?
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do. - again, really?, not where I'm from which is far from a "rugby area" maybe your survey didn't hit any real working class areas? - you do know us proles can use our own brains right?
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is. club membership, boots, nicks, socks and a shirt - is it really expensive to play though?
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back. - nice straw man though.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do. - couldn't give a flying f%~k

So what exactly there is "w@nk"? - pretty much everything you "wrote"

answers in RED

[Keith]

I never said anything of the sort. I said the tone of the whole thread was like a bad parody of a Fine Gael forum, which it was (is). Believe it or not a lot, and I mean a lot, of the Leinster squad enjoy listening to the Wolfe Tones, not just Mr Porter.

The whole tone of this thread went as follows:
I don't like the song - The Wolfe Tones are Sectarian - Celtic are sectarian - Sack the low paid person who hit play - Someone doesn't 100% agree with my opinion? They support the IRA then - Young people are just thick and don't know history - This is all the Shinners fault.

It read word for word what I'd expect from an FG voters forum on the topic and if you are someone not from a traditional rugby area that is the mental image you get of rugbys support base and this thread would confirm that 100% to them.
It is exactly why tonnes of people from non rugby areas do not feel welcome in the sport (This is a fact not an opinion, there are tonnes of people who have explicitly said to me they enjoy watching the games on TV but don't think they'd feel welcome at them), do you guys not see that? The sport is F*£$ing expensive to play, go to, even to just watch a particular team. The attitude of the supporters is such an attitude of "You want into this club then you have to 100% agree with us on everything or we'll dismiss you". How do you expect people to feel welcome in an environment they can't afford to be in and if they pull the money together their views on things are just completely dismissed from the outset?

I'm not even talking about just people who like this song here, I'm talking about people who have a certain idea of what people who like rugby are like in Leinster and seeing the reaction to a song being played just cements that idea in their head as accurate.

That is some load of w&%k in 4 paragraphs.

Whats w@nk about it?
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do.
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is.
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do.

So what exactly there is "w@nk"?

You're 100% correct about how non rugby fans view rugby fans. I'm from a non rugby heartland myself, so I know all too well how hard it is to even get my closest friends and family to watch the sport, let alone anyone outside that bubble.

I think when we discuss our poor attendances relative to what we really should be getting (large population, one of the best teams in world rugby, home grown side etc etc) we really gloss over the hard reality that Leinster rugby simply has not shaken off the "elite" and "West brit" image it has had since maybe its inception. Leinster have done great work in the last 15 years in trying to engage with the wider public (I'm proof of the work being done) but there is still so, so much more to be done. To give an idea of how we are perceived by some, I seen a comment on social media discussing the topic of whether it was right to play the song, where it went something like "Leinster fans have only gotten over the death of the Queen, now this!"

[Workhorse]

@oldschoolsocks
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does. - does it? really though? feels like this well is being well and truly poisoned
Well yeah, it really does. Waterford Whispers couldn't have done a better "Leinster da" parody.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do. - points to a poor education in politics, history and music theory, did the goys learn nothing of substance in Moikels and ROCK ?
This reply actually proves point 1... Liking a band = Poorly educated
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do. - again, really?, not where I'm from which is far from a "rugby area" maybe your survey didn't hit any real working class areas? - you do know us proles can use our own brains right?
Go on the Quote Tweets on any article about Leinsters apology or the tweet pointing out the song was played and see for yourself.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is. club membership, boots, nicks, socks and a shirt - is it really expensive to play though?
Adult Membership - €200-250 Boots - €70+ Nicks- €30 Socks - €15 Shirt - €50+ Gumshield- €30 Total: ~€425 before cost of transport and various extras, yes thats expensive.
P.S. Whoever said their membership is under €200 is just outright lying, looked through 6/7 leinster clubs and none even had kids memberships under €100
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back. - nice straw man though.
It's the contents of this thread.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do. - couldn't give a flying f%~k
And that proves the point above...

[the spoofer]

This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does. - does it? really though? feels like this well is being well and truly poisoned
Well yeah, it really does. Waterford Whispers couldn't have done a better "Leinster da" parody.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do. - points to a poor education in politics, history and music theory, did the goys learn nothing of substance in Moikels and ROCK ?
This reply actually proves point 1... Liking a band = Poorly educated
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do. - again, really?, not where I'm from which is far from a "rugby area" maybe your survey didn't hit any real working class areas? - you do know us proles can use our own brains right?
Go on the Quote Tweets on any article about Leinsters apology or the tweet pointing out the song was played and see for yourself.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is. club membership, boots, nicks, socks and a shirt - is it really expensive to play though?
Adult Membership - €200-250 Boots - €70+ Nicks- €30 Socks - €15 Shirt - €50+ Gumshield- €30 Total: ~€425 before cost of transport and various extras, yes thats expensive.
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back. - nice straw man though.
It's the contents of this thread.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do. - couldn't give a flying f%~k
And that proves the point above...

The most elite club in the country, Lansdowne, charges €150. My club is €100. Gum shield €30? Meet me at the next game and I'll sell you one for €25 (That I bought for €10) Most clubs provide jerseys. So I call bullshit on your numbers.

[ronk]

All of it. Probably worth drawing attention to the really weird obsession with FG forums.

Dismissing trolls you don't agree with: sounds fair. Bye.

[Workhorse]

The most elite club in the country, Lansdowne, charges €150. My club is €100. Gum shield €30? Meet me at the next game and I'll sell you one for €25 (That I bought for €10) Most clubs provide jerseys. So I call bullshit on your numbers.

1 Lansdowne are very much the outlier there and they charge €160 and the same for kids, because their facilities costs are significantly lower than most other clubs.
Adult player fees: DLSP €270, Old Wesley €225, St Marys €240, Clontarf €260, Graystones €250, Gorey €200, Tullamore €150 (good price tbf), Tullow €120, Naas €180
So in fairness once you get outside the pale and into junior rugby it gets cheaper but its skill not cheap. Football in Tullamore in €50 for eg.
The gumshield was the cost on elverys sports, where most new players would go for kit. Most clubs provide jerseys yeah? You just train topless do you?

[Oldschoolsocks]

@oldschoolsocks
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does. - does it? really though? feels like this well is being well and truly poisoned
Well yeah, it really does. Waterford Whispers couldn't have done a better "Leinster da" parody.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do. - points to a poor education in politics, history and music theory, did the goys learn nothing of substance in Moikels and ROCK ?
This reply actually proves point 1... Liking a band = Poorly educated
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do. - again, really?, not where I'm from which is far from a "rugby area" maybe your survey didn't hit any real working class areas? - you do know us proles can use our own brains right?
Go on the Quote Tweets on any article about Leinsters apology or the tweet pointing out the song was played and see for yourself.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is. club membership, boots, nicks, socks and a shirt - is it really expensive to play though?
Adult Membership - €200-250 Boots - €70+ Nicks- €30 Socks - €15 Shirt - €50+ Gumshield- €30 Total: ~€425 before cost of transport and various extras, yes thats expensive.
P.S. Whoever said their membership is under €200 is just outright lying, looked through 6/7 leinster clubs and none even had kids memberships under €100
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back. - nice straw man though.
It's the cherry-picked contents of this thread.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do. - couldn't give a flying f%~k
And that proves the point above...

so the real question for you is why are you spending so much effort in building this straw man of an argument which boils down to : "Centrist Dads tut tut at naughty song while sipping their Latte frappichinos outside Brown Thomas because they just don't understand the plight and mind of the common man"

1: Everybody with half a brain knows that "ooh aah up the Ra" is conveying support for the Provisional IRA
2: There is no context that makes chanting support the Provisional IRA OK
3: that's it. All of the handwringing about "D4 snobs" and "how will people from working class areas perceive us" is just noise.

just to add I honestly couldn't give a flying f%~k what some imaginary person you just imagined reacts to me not liking pro terrorist songs being played at a sports ground. This is because you have, in fact, just constructed them to try to bolster your argument.

OH - I also noticed that your reference Twitter to support your position - you can do a lot better than that. Joe Brolly feeling needy on a Tuesday morning is not an argument

[RoboProp]

I originally said split the thread, I said to myself I wouldn't contribute (I did )
Now, I think there's only one thing for it

[Workhorse]

@oldschoolsocks
This thread reads like a bad parody of a FG forum? It does. - does it? really though? feels like this well is being well and truly poisoned
Well yeah, it really does. Waterford Whispers couldn't have done a better "Leinster da" parody.
A lot of Leinster players listen to the Wolfe Tones? They do. - points to a poor education in politics, history and music theory, did the goys learn nothing of substance in Moikels and ROCK ?
This reply actually proves point 1... Liking a band = Poorly educated
People from non rugby areas picture rugby fans as stuck up, Fine Gael voting, D4 snobs? They do. - again, really?, not where I'm from which is far from a "rugby area" maybe your survey didn't hit any real working class areas? - you do know us proles can use our own brains right?
Go on the Quote Tweets on any article about Leinsters apology or the tweet pointing out the song was played and see for yourself.
Rugby is expensive to play, go to, or watch? It is. club membership, boots, nicks, socks and a shirt - is it really expensive to play though?
Adult Membership - €200-250 Boots - €70+ Nicks- €30 Socks - €15 Shirt - €50+ Gumshield- €30 Total: ~€425 before cost of transport and various extras, yes thats expensive.
P.S. Whoever said their membership is under €200 is just outright lying, looked through 6/7 leinster clubs and none even had kids memberships under €100
Rugby fans have a reputation for just dismissing people with different views as wrong? Read this thread back. - nice straw man though.
It's the cherry-picked contents of this thread.
People who are apprehensive about rugby fans see this reaction as off putting? They do. - couldn't give a flying f%~k
And that proves the point above...

so the real question for you is why are you spending so much effort in building this straw man of an argument which boils down to : "Centrist Dads tut tut at naughty song while sipping their Latte frappichinos outside Brown Thomas because they just don't understand the plight and mind of the common man"

1: Everybody with half a brain knows that "ooh aah up the Ra" is conveying support for the Provisional IRA
2: There is no context that makes chanting support the Provisional IRA OK
3: that's it. All of the handwringing about "D4 snobs" and "how will people from working class areas perceive us" is just noise.

just to add I honestly couldn't give a flying f%~k what some imaginary person you just imagined reacts to me not liking pro terrorist songs being played at a sports ground. This is because you have, in fact, just constructed them to try to bolster your argument.

OH - I also noticed that your reference Twitter to support your position - you can do a lot better than that. Joe Brolly feeling needy on a Tuesday morning is not an argument

Do you really honestly not see how you have just completely missed my whole point because you've locked onto the one part you don't agree with, and thus proved my point?
Right now people who already had preconceived notions about what a Leinster rugby fan is like are laughing at the reaction rugby fans are having to this because it is exactly the reaction they expected. It is being summed up perfectly here, the sheer sanctimonious outrage on here is just amazing. Instead of going "ah in light of recent events its clear that song could be a bit offensive to people, maybe Leinster should remove it from the playlist" people burst into calling for peoples heads, calling people sectarian, terrorist sympathisers, dismissing entire groups of people as such. People don't need to like the song, or even think its okay to sing it to look at the reaction on here and go, yeah thats a bit much.

I'm going to assume you want Fairytale of New York banned too? If you do fair enough youve set your stall out that offensive language in a song to set the tone of the song is never okay. If you don't you're being a wee bit hypocritical.

Again I'm not inventing someone but I can hardly tell you to go talk to Joe down in the Purple Horse in Edenderry about it now can I? So the hundreds of people mocking this exact type of reaction on Twitter will have to do.

As I have said time and time again, the playing of the song at the Leinster game probably should not have happened. Considering it has been played at Leinster games numerous times before and nothing has ever been said the sanctimonious reaction on here is laughable.
To try deny that rugby in Leinster has an elitist image problem is also laughable.
I don't know why people really think I would make something like that up, I like rugby, I've been involved in more rugby this seasons than pretty much anyone here I'd bet so I don't know why people would think I want this to be true. True it is though and it is exactly what is stopping the game hitting its full potential. The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging its there, some here seem to be in denial.