Racing in Le Harve

[D4surfer]

After seven rounds of the Top 14 (1st week in Oct), Racing 92 were in 11th place on the log. Now, after 12 weeks of fixtures, they are second, with five successive wins and very much the form team.

Stop reading that South African sh1te.

[curates_egg]

leinster strongest pack?

1. Porter
2. Sheehan
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Jenkins
6. Baird
7. JVDF
8. Doris

Depends who we're playing. Against Racing's pack, I'd select Kelleher to start because of his scrum work, with a welcome for Sheehan at 45 mins. Certainly, on the basis of current form, Baird shades it over Conan, but another day in another place, I'd prefer Conan for his 'Big game' experience.

That Baird hype is based on two games. And he was a second row last season.
Deegan, Ruddock and Penney have all also been good this season. And Conan is clearly a world class player.

Clearly Doris and VDF are indisputable. But I'd have no problem with however the coaches decide to deploy our resources beside them. You could make a case that each of them has 'earned' selection (albeit for different reasons).
That being said, I would like to see Deegan get a shot in one of the games.

[mildlyinterested]

leinster strongest pack?

1. Porter
2. Sheehan
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Jenkins
6. Baird
7. JVDF
8. Doris

Depends who we're playing. Against Racing's pack, I'd select Kelleher to start because of his scrum work, with a welcome for Sheehan at 45 mins. Certainly, on the basis of current form, Baird shades it over Conan, but another day in another place, I'd prefer Conan for his 'Big game' experience.

That Baird hype is based on two games. And he was a second row last season.
Deegan, Ruddock and Penney have all also been good this season. And Conan is clearly a world class player.

Clearly Doris and VDF are indisputable. But I'd have no problem with however the coaches decide to deploy our resources beside them. You could make a case that each of them has 'earned' selection (albeit for different reasons).
That being said, I would like to see Deegan get a shot in one of the games.

is he?

[wixfjord]

That Baird hype is based on two games. And he was a second row last season.
Deegan, Ruddock and Penney have all also been good this season. And Conan is clearly a world class player.

It's not though. Baird has started 4 games at 6 this year and played very well overall. His career stats have him at 33% of his games started in back row too btw.

As good as Jack has been in recent years, he's absolutely not 'clearly a world class player'. And certainly not on his current form.

The choice for Sat is likely between Deegan/Conan/Baird.

Personally I'd start Baird and have Deegan on the bench.

[curates_egg]

Depends who we're playing. Against Racing's pack, I'd select Kelleher to start because of his scrum work, with a welcome for Sheehan at 45 mins. Certainly, on the basis of current form, Baird shades it over Conan, but another day in another place, I'd prefer Conan for his 'Big game' experience.

That Baird hype is based on two games. And he was a second row last season.
Deegan, Ruddock and Penney have all also been good this season. And Conan is clearly a world class player.

Clearly Doris and VDF are indisputable. But I'd have no problem with however the coaches decide to deploy our resources beside them. You could make a case that each of them has 'earned' selection (albeit for different reasons).
That being said, I would like to see Deegan get a shot in one of the games.

is he?

He was the Lions no 8. I hate the Lions but I can't think of any other objective yardstick for attributing the nebulous 'world class' moniker to Irish or British players.
He has not been in good form since. But his season up to and including the Lions was exceptional.

Baird has been looking great this season. But in the URC.
He could well be the long term 6 for us (and maybe for Ireland too, although I would have Beirne ahead of him). He has a lot of attributes that make him a really exciting prospect, in particular his athleticism and size.
But I am mindful of the fact that he hasn't really had a tough challenge yet, and that he was quite inconsistent in the past and that some aspects of his game were really quite poor (handling/passing).

[wixfjord]

He was Lions number 8 18 months ago.

Since then he hasn't been a regular starter for Ireland, never mind being one of the best in the world as you've said.

Would you describe Conor Murray, Ali Price, Elliot Daly or Chris Harris as 'world class' currently?

Being world class 18 months ago doesn't play into selection for a game on Saturday.

Baird has played well in three of our toughest games this year - Ulster away & home and Sharks at home.

To me, Baird adds a totally different dimension to the pack at 6 and his form warrants a start.

[curates_egg]

He was Lions number 8 18 months ago.

Since then he hasn't been a regular starter for Ireland, never mind being one of the best in the world as you've said.

Would you describe Conor Murray, Ali Price, Elliot Daly or Chris Harris as 'world class' currently?

Being world class 18 months ago doesn't play into selection for a game on Saturday.

Baird has played well in three of our toughest games this year - Ulster away & home and Sharks at home.

To me, Baird adds a totally different dimension to the pack at 6 and his form warrants a start.

Without regurgitating the tired cliche about class, being a 'world class player' doesn't mean that you are (currently) the best in the world or even currently playing very well. It means that you have demonstrated the potential to be among the world's best players.

I would definitely describe Conor Murray as a world class player, who is no longer performing at that level. As I would do with Conan.
I hope Conan can rediscover the form of two years ago - he's three years younger than Murray.

As I mentioned above, I don't believe he merits selection on form. The reason why I would not have too many qualms if the coaches did decide to select him for the squad is that he has proven that he can perform at the highest level. Neither Baird nor Deegan really has. Baird's Ireland selections were at second row.

As I also mentioned above, I like what I have seen of Baird this season. He brings something at 6 that we haven't seen at Leinster before. But I also haven't forgotten the limitations to his game that we saw last season.
I would like him to get tested at the top level to see if he really is the answer for us at 6 long term. Whether that is this weekend or at home against Gloucester is something to consider though.

But I think we are lucky that we also have other players who have putting up their hands. And a player like Conan, who hasn't been on form but has performed at the highest level.

[wixfjord]

He was Lions number 8 18 months ago.

Since then he hasn't been a regular starter for Ireland, never mind being one of the best in the world as you've said.

Would you describe Conor Murray, Ali Price, Elliot Daly or Chris Harris as 'world class' currently?

Being world class 18 months ago doesn't play into selection for a game on Saturday.

Baird has played well in three of our toughest games this year - Ulster away & home and Sharks at home.

To me, Baird adds a totally different dimension to the pack at 6 and his form warrants a start.

Without regurgitating the tired cliche about class, being a 'world class player' doesn't mean that you are (currently) the best in the world or even currently playing very well. It means that you have demonstrated the potential to be among the world's best players.

I would definitely describe Conor Murray as a world class player, who is no longer performing at that level. As I would do with Conan.
I hope Conan can rediscover the form of two years ago - he's three years younger than Murray.

As I mentioned above, I don't believe he merits selection on form. The reason why I would not have too many qualms if the coaches did decide to select him for the squad is that he has proven that he can perform at the highest level. Neither Baird nor Deegan really has. Baird's Ireland selections were at second row.

As I also mentioned above, I like what I have seen of Baird this season. He brings something at 6 that we haven't seen at Leinster before. But I also haven't forgotten the limitations to his game that we saw last season.
I would like him to get tested at the top level to see if he really is the answer for us at 6 long term. Whether that is this weekend or at home against Gloucester is something to consider though.

But I think we are lucky that we also have other players who have putting up their hands. And a player like Conan, who hasn't been on form but has performed at the highest level.

Having once performed to a world class level doesn't make you a world class player.

If Jack Conan were 'world class' he'd be nailed on for Ireland. He has rarely in his career been nailed on for Ireland.

[backrower8]

Total syllogism. You could equally argue, and it would be equally fallacious, that 12 months after that tour, Furlong, Conan, Murray, Henshaw, Beirne, Aki, and Murray were part of the Ireland squad and team that won the test series in NZ and that without the sh!t trip to a covid-stricken South Africa there is no way that we would have won that test series in NZ.

I agree, it is a total syllogism [a good word which I had to look up]. I'm still right though!

[backrower8]

That Baird hype is based on two games. And he was a second row last season.
Deegan, Ruddock and Penney have all also been good this season. And Conan is clearly a world class player.

It's not though. Baird has started 4 games at 6 this year and played very well overall. His career stats have him at 33% of his games started in back row too btw.

As good as Jack has been in recent years, he's absolutely not 'clearly a world class player'. And certainly not on his current form.

The choice for Sat is likely between Deegan/Conan/Baird.

Personally I'd start Baird and have Deegan on the bench.

+1

[ronk]

The choice for Sat is likely between Deegan/Conan/Baird.

Personally I'd start Baird and have Deegan on the bench.

Unless we put Baird on the bench wearing 19 or we go for a 6-2 split.

Then we can have them all in the 23.

[curates_egg]

He was Lions number 8 18 months ago.

Since then he hasn't been a regular starter for Ireland, never mind being one of the best in the world as you've said.

Would you describe Conor Murray, Ali Price, Elliot Daly or Chris Harris as 'world class' currently?

Being world class 18 months ago doesn't play into selection for a game on Saturday.

Baird has played well in three of our toughest games this year - Ulster away & home and Sharks at home.

To me, Baird adds a totally different dimension to the pack at 6 and his form warrants a start.

Without regurgitating the tired cliche about class, being a 'world class player' doesn't mean that you are (currently) the best in the world or even currently playing very well. It means that you have demonstrated the potential to be among the world's best players.

I would definitely describe Conor Murray as a world class player, who is no longer performing at that level. As I would do with Conan.
I hope Conan can rediscover the form of two years ago - he's three years younger than Murray.

As I mentioned above, I don't believe he merits selection on form. The reason why I would not have too many qualms if the coaches did decide to select him for the squad is that he has proven that he can perform at the highest level. Neither Baird nor Deegan really has. Baird's Ireland selections were at second row.

As I also mentioned above, I like what I have seen of Baird this season. He brings something at 6 that we haven't seen at Leinster before. But I also haven't forgotten the limitations to his game that we saw last season.
I would like him to get tested at the top level to see if he really is the answer for us at 6 long term. Whether that is this weekend or at home against Gloucester is something to consider though.

But I think we are lucky that we also have other players who have putting up their hands. And a player like Conan, who hasn't been on form but has performed at the highest level.

Having once performed to a world class level doesn't make you a world class player.

If Jack Conan were 'world class' he'd be nailed on for Ireland. He has rarely in his career been nailed on for Ireland.

Well, you have a different definition of what the term means than I (and almost everyone I know) do, so we'll leave it at that.

As regards the actual substance of my point, I will restate: I would like to see more of Baird at 6, and see him tested at the top level, and I also think Deegan has done enough to deserve selection, but I also would totally understand why the management might choose to go with Conan this weekend.
Not really a controversial statement. But, sure, I know you just love to pick holes in everything I post.

[curates_egg]

The choice for Sat is likely between Deegan/Conan/Baird.

Personally I'd start Baird and have Deegan on the bench.

Unless we put Baird on the bench wearing 19 or we go for a 6-2 split.

Then we can have them all in the 23.

Have we ever gone for a 6-2 split in Europe?

[Dave Cahill]

Poor Rhys Ruddock, the magpies have moved on to newer, gilted, baubles

[Blueberry]

Think based on current form I'd be starting Baird this weekend, thought he was exceptional v Ulster and deserves a go. Having Conan or Deegan on the bench is a great backup and both have their merits. Suspect it will be Conan if Baird starts but wouldn't lose any sleep if it was Deegan.

Great problems and we still have Rhys and Penny..........an embarrassment of riches.

[pangurban1]

Is Connors not gone to Nordystan yet.

[wixfjord]

Well, you have a different definition of what the term means than I (and almost everyone I know) do, so we'll leave it at that.

As regards the actual substance of my point, I will restate: I would like to see more of Baird at 6, and see him tested at the top level, and I also think Deegan has done enough to deserve selection, but I also would totally understand why the management might choose to go with Conan this weekend.
Not really a controversial statement. But, sure, I know you just love to pick holes in everything I post.

Do I really?

So once someone puts in a really good game or run of form you (and almost everyone you know) just decides they're now 'world class' for ever?

Conan isn't 'world class' at the moment, or anything like it.
Baird has put in a good run of form (in more than the two games you mentioned) and wasn't a 'second row last season' as you also said.

[wixfjord]

Poor Rhys Ruddock, the magpies have moved on to newer, gilted, baubles

Including the coaching team?

Rhys is a cracking and much loved player. For whatever reason he doesn't seem in favour or in the conversation for our first 23 at the moment.

[hugonaut]

Poor Rhys Ruddock, the magpies have moved on to newer, gilted, baubles

Including the coaching team?

Rhys is a cracking and much loved player. For whatever reason he doesn't seem in favour or in the conversation for our first 23 at the moment.

I think they are making an investment in Ryan Baird which is completely worthwhile. If they want him to be a No6 [which I think is a great position for him] then they are going to have to play him at No6. We have no 'A' matches, and it would be the next thing to pointless playing him in those anyway, he's way above that standard no matter the number on his back.

The coaches have done a really good job of spreading the minutes around. Rhys should have 55-60 more minutes; he came off injured after 4 minutes against the Sharks.

1. Josh van der Flier 319 mins [4+0]
2. Ryan Baird 305mins [4+1]
3. Max Deegan 293 mins [4+0]
4. Scott Penny 284 mins [4+0]
5. Rhys Ruddock 209 mins [4+0]
6. Jack Conan 196 mins [3+1]
7. Caelan Doris 188 mins [3+1]
8. Will Connors 172mins [1+3]
9. Martin Moloney 130 mins [0+3]

Backrow is an injury factory, so there are always going to be chances to play once you are not one of the injured parties.

[Blue Man]

Rhys has been and is an unbelievable pro.
He has been unlucky with injuries, at key points during his career and is now approaching the winter. That said, he can still be an important player, particularly as a leader, and have a fruitful and enjoyable few years. He’s clearly an important personality in the group and a natural leader. He was nearly 10 years older than the next oldest starter in the Chilie match!
I really hope he follows in his dads footsteps and that he’ll end up as a coach at Leinster. It would be good to blood him with the academy, then send him abroad for a few years and bring him back to coach the forwards.

In terms of the no. 6 shirt, I think Conan is still a bit off so Doris will start at 8. Agree about the investment in Baird, he’s a phenomenal athlete, although I have worried about his temperament and concentration in the past. He has drifted out of matches, given away bad penalties and coughed up cheap turnovers (do I recall 4 t/os in 10 mins in one match?!!) He has definitely been more focused this year and his performance against Ulster was brilliant. I’m excited to see what comes next but think he has to start vs Racing.