Leinster Squad 22-23

[mildlyinterested]

Makes ugly reading for not only Clarkson but the whole unit. Not surprising though.

[riocard911]

Makes ugly reading for not only Clarkson but the whole unit. Not surprising though.

Potential Achilles' Heal......

[Ruckedtobits]

Since I may be at fault for directly criticising two of our young players, let me correct an impression that has grown through this particular thread.

My comments were two-fold. One, about the playing performances, including penalty infringements, of the players in question and two, about their development as props this season.

In terms of their scrummaging, and I acknowledge that they now only have the option of URC games for Leinster, (overage for 20's and no A games), they have suffered penalties or collapsed scrums with regularity. To my mind, part of this is coaching and part is physical / mental on the part of the player.

I acknowledge Boyle is above average as a ball-carrying prop but would prefer to see his efforts being concentrated into clear-outs at breakdowns and driving or locking-out at mauls, which are two particular aspects in which Leinster use their props at HC and play-off games.

At no point did I suggest that we should let either player go. On the contrary, we should re-focus our coaching efforts on aspects of their games which they are going to need more and more the longer they are with us.

Three seasons ago I was critical of Milne for apparently looking for ball-carrying opportunities rather than hitting breakdowns and creating ball-carrying opportunities for others. He is now a remarkable workhorse who contributed strongly against Edinburgh and I suspect that part of that improvement stems from his Irish Camp involvement.

Let's not get too precious about comments about our players, young or old. I don't believe that any of the regular posters make detrimental comments about the performance of players for the purpose of offending them. However, objective, factual comments may fall on eyes or ears of somebody who may be able to improve performance.

[Theleinsterlad]

We just haven’t been the same at scrum time since fogerty went to the Ireland setup

[Blue Man]

Alaalatoa had his struggles with Jenkins behind him, he's the Samoan captain.

Clarkson is not a scrumming specialist and he's 23. He was playing beside the 2nd choice academy hooker and the 2nd choice academy loosehead with a much lighter lock pairing.

We're not signing a NIQ tighthead, we lost a lot at once and he's stepping up. He'll get better and he's doing okay overall for a 3rd choice.

We may as well give him our support rather than only ever mentioning negatives and being harder on him than other players. He's relatively mobile and hard working, it's just less noticeable because his carrying isn't remarkable.

Clarksons selling point as an underage player was his scrummaging ability, if he doesnt offer that, he doesn't offer a lot as he impact around the field is limited. They'll stick with him but certainly his struggles are notable and a concern as its been ongoing for quite some time, hopefully he can find some answers but if he doesnt sort it out, his long term place in the squad will surely come under pressure from younger talent coming through.

Yeah, he needs to drastically improve. He has been a liability when he has come on the pitch in the last three games [Cardiff, Dragons, Edinburgh] – the number of penalties he has conceded at the scrum has been dreadful.

With that said ... he has been better in the past. These have been his first three games back from injury, and he was better before the injury. He was an very good age-grade prop for two very successful seasons as an U20. He was very well-regarded by the academy staff during his stint there. He has only just gone 23. Most of our players improve a lot through the coaching they get here. So I wouldn't give up hope in him.

But I wouldn't pick him either. I don't know why he has been getting picked ahead of Vakh, who has another year left on his deal. Maybe there is something going on in the background, I don't know. I only get to see the games, not training, so maybe there's more to the story. On the other hand, I don't know how you can have seen both players' games this season and not think that VA is the better option.

I don't think Vakh is very fit, which I think runs contrary to the Leocaster mindset. For me, he has to play 15-20 minutes in a game, so his fitness shouldn't be a deal breaker. We're paying him, so I don't know why we're not using him more.

URC scrum offences*:
Abdaladze: 8 games played [0+8, 152 mins]/ 0 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... -abdaladze ]

Ala'alatoa: 12 games played [11+1, 638 mins] / 3 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... -alaalatoa ]

Ed Byrne: 6 games played [4+2, 255 mins]/ 3 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/ed-byrne ]

Clarkson: 6 games played [2+4, 165 mins]/ 9 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... s-clarkson ]

Healy: 6 games played [4+2, 227 mins]/ 2 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/cian-healy ]

Milne: 8 games played [4+4, 272 mins]/ 4 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... hael-milne ]

Porter: 8 games played [4+4, 409 mins]/ 6 scrum offences
[ https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... rew-porter]

*The URC scrum offences are one game out of date; the playing totals and minutes I did myself, so they are up to date. Clarkson gave away at least two and probably three scrum penalties in his 20 minutes against Edinburgh; when I say probably three, it's because I can't be sure what the ref said afterwards. He is therefore on either 11 or 12 scrum offences in 6 league games, which is abject.

Just as a last point, the URC stats [source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/stats ] have us:
Scrum Offences: 39
Scrum penalties won: 16

That's really, really bad.

Quality work Hugonaut. Shows the scrum is out achilles heel and that Clarkson needs to go back to scrum school before he gets anywhere near a playoff pitch

[Theleinsterlad]

Wouldn’t mind seeing Mike Ross brought in to work directly with the props - am actually surprised that there isn’t a specialist prop coach with all the other coaching positions that are in teams these days

[jezzer]

Clarksons selling point as an underage player was his scrummaging ability, if he doesnt offer that, he doesn't offer a lot as he impact around the field is limited. They'll stick with him but certainly his struggles are notable and a concern as its been ongoing for quite some time, hopefully he can find some answers but if he doesnt sort it out, his long term place in the squad will surely come under pressure from younger talent coming through.

Yeah, he needs to drastically improve. He has been a liability when he has come on the pitch in the last three games [Cardiff, Dragons, Edinburgh] – the number of penalties he has conceded at the scrum has been dreadful.

With that said ... he has been better in the past. These have been his first three games back from injury, and he was better before the injury. He was an very good age-grade prop for two very successful seasons as an U20. He was very well-regarded by the academy staff during his stint there. He has only just gone 23. Most of our players improve a lot through the coaching they get here. So I wouldn't give up hope in him.

But I wouldn't pick him either. I don't know why he has been getting picked ahead of Vakh, who has another year left on his deal. Maybe there is something going on in the background, I don't know. I only get to see the games, not training, so maybe there's more to the story. On the other hand, I don't know how you can have seen both players' games this season and not think that VA is the better option.

I don't think Vakh is very fit, which I think runs contrary to the Leocaster mindset. For me, he has to play 15-20 minutes in a game, so his fitness shouldn't be a deal breaker. We're paying him, so I don't know why we're not using him more.

URC scrum offences*:
Abdaladze: 8 games played [0+8, 152 mins]/ 0 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... -abdaladze ]

Ala'alatoa: 12 games played [11+1, 638 mins] / 3 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... -alaalatoa ]

Ed Byrne: 6 games played [4+2, 255 mins]/ 3 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/ed-byrne ]

Clarkson: 6 games played [2+4, 165 mins]/ 9 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... s-clarkson ]

Healy: 6 games played [4+2, 227 mins]/ 2 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/cian-healy ]

Milne: 8 games played [4+4, 272 mins]/ 4 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... hael-milne ]

Porter: 8 games played [4+4, 409 mins]/ 6 scrum offences
[ https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... rew-porter]

*The URC scrum offences are one game out of date; the playing totals and minutes I did myself, so they are up to date. Clarkson gave away at least two and probably three scrum penalties in his 20 minutes against Edinburgh; when I say probably three, it's because I can't be sure what the ref said afterwards. He is therefore on either 11 or 12 scrum offences in 6 league games, which is abject.

Just as a last point, the URC stats [source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/stats ] have us:
Scrum Offences: 39
Scrum penalties won: 16

That's really, really bad.

Quality work Hugonaut. Shows the scrum is out achilles heel and that Clarkson needs to go back to scrum school before he gets anywhere near a playoff pitch

Robin McBryde. What question is he the answer to?

[Blue Man]

Yeah, he needs to drastically improve. He has been a liability when he has come on the pitch in the last three games [Cardiff, Dragons, Edinburgh] – the number of penalties he has conceded at the scrum has been dreadful.

With that said ... he has been better in the past. These have been his first three games back from injury, and he was better before the injury. He was an very good age-grade prop for two very successful seasons as an U20. He was very well-regarded by the academy staff during his stint there. He has only just gone 23. Most of our players improve a lot through the coaching they get here. So I wouldn't give up hope in him.

But I wouldn't pick him either. I don't know why he has been getting picked ahead of Vakh, who has another year left on his deal. Maybe there is something going on in the background, I don't know. I only get to see the games, not training, so maybe there's more to the story. On the other hand, I don't know how you can have seen both players' games this season and not think that VA is the better option.

I don't think Vakh is very fit, which I think runs contrary to the Leocaster mindset. For me, he has to play 15-20 minutes in a game, so his fitness shouldn't be a deal breaker. We're paying him, so I don't know why we're not using him more.

URC scrum offences*:
Abdaladze: 8 games played [0+8, 152 mins]/ 0 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... -abdaladze ]

Ala'alatoa: 12 games played [11+1, 638 mins] / 3 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... -alaalatoa ]

Ed Byrne: 6 games played [4+2, 255 mins]/ 3 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/ed-byrne ]

Clarkson: 6 games played [2+4, 165 mins]/ 9 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... s-clarkson ]

Healy: 6 games played [4+2, 227 mins]/ 2 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/cian-healy ]

Milne: 8 games played [4+4, 272 mins]/ 4 scrum offences
[source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... hael-milne ]

Porter: 8 games played [4+4, 409 mins]/ 6 scrum offences
[ https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... rew-porter]

*The URC scrum offences are one game out of date; the playing totals and minutes I did myself, so they are up to date. Clarkson gave away at least two and probably three scrum penalties in his 20 minutes against Edinburgh; when I say probably three, it's because I can't be sure what the ref said afterwards. He is therefore on either 11 or 12 scrum offences in 6 league games, which is abject.

Just as a last point, the URC stats [source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leinster/stats ] have us:
Scrum Offences: 39
Scrum penalties won: 16

That's really, really bad.

Quality work Hugonaut. Shows the scrum is out achilles heel and that Clarkson needs to go back to scrum school before he gets anywhere near a playoff pitch

Robin McBryde. What question is he the answer to?

I wonder if Mike Ross could be brought in as scrum coach? Not sure he would take a full time gig but he has a lot of knowledge and a genuinely passion for it

[mildlyinterested]

They've updated the stats now 45 offences, with 11 for Clarkson.

[Xanthippe]

I see they still haven’t removed the red card against Cian Healy’s name (mind you, not has Leinster’s own website)

[mildlyinterested]

I wonder if Mike Ross could be brought in as scrum coach? Not sure he would take a full time gig but he has a lot of knowledge and a genuinely passion for it

They need a scrum specific coach, both the academy forwards and senior forwards coach were hookers.

[the spoofer]

Demented Mole made a good point re Leinsters Lions contingent. They either come back broken or out of form. It's not worth it from a Leinster or Irish point of view. The coaches have no interest in the long term well being of the players.

[mildlyinterested]

Demented Mole made a good point re Leinsters Lions contingent. They either come back broken or out of form. It's not worth it from a Leinster or Irish point of view. The coaches have no interest in the long term well being of the players.

I agree, but it appears the likely next Lions head coach will be irelands current head coach.

[riocard911]

Demented Mole made a good point re Leinsters Lions contingent. They either come back broken or out of form. It's not worth it from a Leinster or Irish point of view. The coaches have no interest in the long term well being of the players.

I agree, but it appears the likely next Lions head coach will be irelands current head coach.

I understand why the players want to go, but when one considers, that most, if not all Irish travellers on the BIL tour are on national contracts, then the question arises, why the IRFU couldn't offer them top-up money to stay and home for the greater good - national and provincial. I mean it can't be in the interest of the IRFU to have the high profile members of the national team coming back crocked every four years from a summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Or are the "home nation" Unions recompensed for releasing their players to the BIL? And if so by how much?

[Schumi]

I assumed the Lions was the unions essentially so all the money goes to the unions. One union not making its players available would spell the end of the whole thing pretty quickly.

[FLIP]

Demented Mole made a good point re Leinsters Lions contingent. They either come back broken or out of form. It's not worth it from a Leinster or Irish point of view. The coaches have no interest in the long term well being of the players.

I agree, but it appears the likely next Lions head coach will be irelands current head coach.

I understand why the players want to go, but when one considers, that most, if not all Irish travellers on the BIL tour are on national contracts, then the question arises, why the IRFU couldn't offer them top-up money to stay and home for the greater good - national and provincial. I mean it can't be in the interest of the IRFU to have the high profile members of the national team coming back crocked every four years from a summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Or are the "home nation" Unions recompensed for releasing their players to the BIL? And if so by how much?

My understanding is that the home nations own the Lions and ergo would take a share of the profits, and I imagine this greatly outweighs the cost in player damages

[Dave Cahill]

Demented Mole made a good point re Leinsters Lions contingent. They either come back broken or out of form. It's not worth it from a Leinster or Irish point of view. The coaches have no interest in the long term well being of the players.

I agree, but it appears the likely next Lions head coach will be irelands current head coach.

I understand why the players want to go, but when one considers, that most, if not all Irish travellers on the BIL tour are on national contracts, then the question arises, why the IRFU couldn't offer them top-up money to stay and home for the greater good - national and provincial. I mean it can't be in the interest of the IRFU to have the high profile members of the national team coming back crocked every four years from a summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Or are the "home nation" Unions recompensed for releasing their players to the BIL? And if so by how much?

Two things

1. Why would the IRFU pay players to not play for an IRFU owned team?
2. Are you so naive as to believe that if Irish players weren’t touring NZ/SA/AUS with the Lions that they wouldn’t be touring NZ/SA/AUS with Ireland?

[the spoofer]

I agree, but it appears the likely next Lions head coach will be irelands current head coach.

I understand why the players want to go, but when one considers, that most, if not all Irish travellers on the BIL tour are on national contracts, then the question arises, why the IRFU couldn't offer them top-up money to stay and home for the greater good - national and provincial. I mean it can't be in the interest of the IRFU to have the high profile members of the national team coming back crocked every four years from a summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Or are the "home nation" Unions recompensed for releasing their players to the BIL? And if so by how much?

Two things

1. Why would the IRFU pay players to not play for an IRFU owned team?
2. Are you so naive as to believe that if Irish players weren’t touring NZ/SA/AUS with the Lions that they wouldn’t be touring NZ/SA/AUS with Ireland?

Yes they would but would be touring with Ireland, an organisation that gives a sh!t about their long term well being.

[Dave Cahill]

It is a myth that a Lions Tour is any worse than an Irish tour for player welfare. The example of Jack McGrath given above is laughable. The guy played 19 times for Ireland after he toured!

[Dave Cahill]

I understand why the players want to go, but when one considers, that most, if not all Irish travellers on the BIL tour are on national contracts, then the question arises, why the IRFU couldn't offer them top-up money to stay and home for the greater good - national and provincial. I mean it can't be in the interest of the IRFU to have the high profile members of the national team coming back crocked every four years from a summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Or are the "home nation" Unions recompensed for releasing their players to the BIL? And if so by how much?

Two things

1. Why would the IRFU pay players to not play for an IRFU owned team?
2. Are you so naive as to believe that if Irish players weren’t touring NZ/SA/AUS with the Lions that they wouldn’t be touring NZ/SA/AUS with Ireland?

Yes they would but would be touring with Ireland, an organisation that gives a sh!t about their long term well being.

Does it? After all, that organisation lets, nay encourages, them to tour with the Lions.