Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 12:34 pm
I don't think we need backline depth, I think we need another back 3 player who is at an international level who can push Jimmy O'Brien into a depth slot. Might be harsh but if I'm being 100% cut throat that would be my opinon. That could be Frawley or Osborne disrupting the centre partnership or something else.
Not really seeing why there's no love for Jimmy O'Brien. The guys been a huge success story and is developing into an important player for Ireland and Leinster. He plays a style that suits how we play.
He's the most versatile outside back in Ireland and is proven international standard in 3 positions with a 4th not far behind (& a 5th in the locker). Worst case scenario I still want him sub-sub doing the warmup.
Larmour is back in form and JOB was still keeping him out. He's not ahead of Hansen, Lowe or Keenan, but he's next in line to all of them.
Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 12:34 pm
I don't think we need backline depth, I think we need another back 3 player who is at an international level who can push Jimmy O'Brien into a depth slot. Might be harsh but if I'm being 100% cut throat that would be my opinon. That could be Frawley or Osborne disrupting the centre partnership or something else.
Charlie Ngatai plays fullback. I understand the use of Frawley across the line because he has the talent to do that but really concerned that's he's not being given a good run at a single position. Seen good players hurt by that.
Backline is in good shape, the big question mark is 10. Ross is in the hotseat and might even become first choice 10 for Ireland but is he the level you need to control a title game at the top level of Ireland or Leinster? Not seen that yet.
Ross to me feels like Jared Payne post O'Driscoll for Ireland. Will get game time for a season or 2 then will likely be overtaken by the younger lads who have more potential then him.
Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 12:34 pm
I don't think we need backline depth, I think we need another back 3 player who is at an international level who can push Jimmy O'Brien into a depth slot. Might be harsh but if I'm being 100% cut throat that would be my opinon. That could be Frawley or Osborne disrupting the centre partnership or something else.
Not really seeing why there's no love for Jimmy O'Brien. The guys been a huge success story and is developing into an important player for Ireland and Leinster. He plays a style that suits how we play.
He's the most versatile outside back in Ireland and is proven international standard in 3 positions with a 4th not far behind (& a 5th in the locker). Worst case scenario I still want him sub-sub doing the warmup.
Larmour is back in form and JOB was still keeping him out. He's not ahead of Hansen, Lowe or Keenan, but he's next in line to all of them.
Good luck to anyone who can do even better.
I just think he has holes in his game that are exploited at higher levels. He's a good player but I just want something more from a winger then what he provides. I understand he's not technically an out and out winger, but maybe that's what would help on the big days.
Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 12:34 pm
I don't think we need backline depth, I think we need another back 3 player who is at an international level who can push Jimmy O'Brien into a depth slot. Might be harsh but if I'm being 100% cut throat that would be my opinon. That could be Frawley or Osborne disrupting the centre partnership or something else.
Charlie Ngatai plays fullback. I understand the use of Frawley across the line because he has the talent to do that but really concerned that's he's not being given a good run at a single position. Seen good players hurt by that.
Backline is in good shape, the big question mark is 10. Ross is in the hotseat and might even become first choice 10 for Ireland but is he the level you need to control a title game at the top level of Ireland or Leinster? Not seen that yet.
Ross to me feels like Jared Payne post O'Driscoll for Ireland. Will get game time for a season or 2 then will likely be overtaken by the younger lads who have more potential then him.
All I'll say is I can't see him lasting to 37.
Payne was looking like making the Lions test team when he had a concussion that ended his career. He was hardly a stopgap.
Ross Byrne is exactly the kind of player who could be going at 37. Ross Byrne is similar in many ways to Ian Keatley, surrounded repeatedly by players who have the gifts to replace he but who never actually do.
Even Carbery never became the player who could move them in a level, just unfulfilled promise.
If Byrne continues to be the best we have then he has my full support. He's not Sexton, and I don't expect him to make that pay bracket.
Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 1:31 pm
I just think he has holes in his game that are exploited at higher levels. He's a good player but I just want something more from a winger then what he provides. I understand he's not technically an out and out winger, but maybe that's what would help on the big days.
Charlie Ngatai plays fullback. I understand the use of Frawley across the line because he has the talent to do that but really concerned that's he's not being given a good run at a single position. Seen good players hurt by that.
Backline is in good shape, the big question mark is 10. Ross is in the hotseat and might even become first choice 10 for Ireland but is he the level you need to control a title game at the top level of Ireland or Leinster? Not seen that yet.
Ross to me feels like Jared Payne post O'Driscoll for Ireland. Will get game time for a season or 2 then will likely be overtaken by the younger lads who have more potential then him.
All I'll say is I can't see him lasting to 37.
Payne was looking like making the Lions test team when he had a concussion that ended his career. He was hardly a stopgap.
Ross Byrne is exactly the kind of player who could be going at 37. Ross Byrne is similar in many ways to Ian Keatley, surrounded repeatedly by players who have the gifts to replace he but who never actually do.
Even Carbery never became the player who could move them in a level, just unfulfilled promise.
If Byrne continues to be the best we have then he has my full support. He's not Sexton, and I don't expect him to make that pay bracket.
Yeah, Payne was a really really good player.
On Ross, at the moment he's the best 10 at the club. Up to the others to show on the pitch and in training that they are better. Apparently they haven't yet. There have been a lot of "next big things" at Leinster at 9 and 10 over the years and none of them have displaced this years first and second choice 9 and 10. One thing is for sure, Ross Byrne will work on his development, the guy has worked unbelievably hard. I don't think he has Sexton's talent but then again how does? For me the biggest issue is that the 10's who were due to put pressure on Ross have been coming through for 4 years now. Does there come a point where a line is drawn?
Charlie Ngatai plays fullback. I understand the use of Frawley across the line because he has the talent to do that but really concerned that's he's not being given a good run at a single position. Seen good players hurt by that.
Backline is in good shape, the big question mark is 10. Ross is in the hotseat and might even become first choice 10 for Ireland but is he the level you need to control a title game at the top level of Ireland or Leinster? Not seen that yet.
Ross to me feels like Jared Payne post O'Driscoll for Ireland. Will get game time for a season or 2 then will likely be overtaken by the younger lads who have more potential then him.
All I'll say is I can't see him lasting to 37.
Payne was looking like making the Lions test team when he had a concussion that ended his career. He was hardly a stopgap.
Ross Byrne is exactly the kind of player who could be going at 37. Ross Byrne is similar in many ways to Ian Keatley, surrounded repeatedly by players who have the gifts to replace he but who never actually do.
Even Carbery never became the player who could move them in a level, just unfulfilled promise.
If Byrne continues to be the best we have then he has my full support. He's not Sexton, and I don't expect him to make that pay bracket.
Well he doesn't get over the line enough as a winger and I think that shows that he doesn't have the top level pace, he has a very good burst around people but hasn't looked rapid. Don't think his kicking game is particularly great and would never be viewed as an option for an exit. He also isn't particularly great in contact. He has strengths such as a good team player, won't shy away from a tackle etc but I think there's a reason he doesn't really get much game time for Ireland. Not saying he is a bad player at all, just saying I think we could get better there and him dropping to a rotational role for injuries etc rather than out and out starter could improve us.
Don't think Keatley is what we want from our no.10 if I'm honest. Never thought he was up to much and a level below his competition. If Ross Byrne is still starting for us in 2033 something has seriously gone wrong, thats not a slight on Ross either.
The Payne point, probably better examples of stopgaps but he's the first that comes to my mind when I think of a player that came in to a postion did a job for 2 seasons then was replaced with someone younger who had improved. You could argue it was all down to injury, but I'd say Ringrose was an upgrade and Payne was a downgrade on O'Driscoll.
Last edited by Observingprop123 on May 29th, 2023, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ross to me feels like Jared Payne post O'Driscoll for Ireland. Will get game time for a season or 2 then will likely be overtaken by the younger lads who have more potential then him.
All I'll say is I can't see him lasting to 37.
Payne was looking like making the Lions test team when he had a concussion that ended his career. He was hardly a stopgap.
Ross Byrne is exactly the kind of player who could be going at 37. Ross Byrne is similar in many ways to Ian Keatley, surrounded repeatedly by players who have the gifts to replace he but who never actually do.
Even Carbery never became the player who could move them in a level, just unfulfilled promise.
If Byrne continues to be the best we have then he has my full support. He's not Sexton, and I don't expect him to make that pay bracket.
Well he doesn't get over the line enough as a winger and I think that shows that he doesn't have the top level pace, he has a very good burst around people but hasn't looked rapid. Don't think his kicking game is particularly great and would never be viewed as an option for an exit. He also isn't particularly great in contact. He has strengths such as a good team player, won't shy away from a tackle etc but I think there's a reason he doesn't really get much game time for Ireland. Not saying he is a bad player at all, just saying I think we could get better there and him dropping to a rotational role for injuries etc rather than out and out starter could improve us.
The Payne point, probably better examples of stopgaps but he's the first that comes to my mind when I think of a player that came in to a postion did a job for 2 seasons then was replaced with someone younger who had improved. You could argue it was all down to injury, but I'd say Ringrose was an upgrade and Payne was a downgrade on O'Driscoll.
On Ross, at the moment he's the best 10 at the club. Up to the others to show on the pitch and in training that they are better. Apparently they haven't yet. There have been a lot of "next big things" at Leinster at 9 and 10 over the years and none of them have displaced this years first and second choice 9 and 10. One thing is for sure, Ross Byrne will work on his development, the guy has worked unbelievably hard. I don't think he has Sexton's talent but then again how does? For me the biggest issue is that the 10's who were due to put pressure on Ross have been coming through for 4 years now. Does there come a point where a line is drawn?
There is no line to be drawn. Or rather it's so far back its not relevant.
If Leinster had zero outhalves in the top 3 or 4 for Ireland then we could change tack and sign someone to compete with him. Otherwise it's Ross v challengers, and it's still a strong situation to be in. We will have to make do with what we have, better to accept that early.
Losing Healy has changed the equation, even though we weren't likely to go down that road, now we can't.
Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 3:53 pm
Well he doesn't get over the line enough as a winger and I think that shows that he doesn't have the top level pace, he has a very good burst around people but hasn't looked rapid. Don't think his kicking game is particularly great and would never be viewed as an option for an exit. He also isn't particularly great in contact. He has strengths such as a good team player, won't shy away from a tackle etc but I think there's a reason he doesn't really get much game time for Ireland. Not saying he is a bad player at all, just saying I think we could get better there and him dropping to a rotational role for injuries etc rather than out and out starter could improve us.
His try scoring record is passable when he plays on the wing, but poor from fullback. Not too many players with try scoring records that are much better. Rob Russell is the obvious. Nash just scored 5 tries on 7 games, but take that run out and he's fairly unremarkable.
There aren't many players competing with him for a shirt who have serious wheels, or siege cannon boots, or burst people in collisions. Maybe Tommy O'Brien. What he brings as a baller is just so important.
On Ross, at the moment he's the best 10 at the club. Up to the others to show on the pitch and in training that they are better. Apparently they haven't yet. There have been a lot of "next big things" at Leinster at 9 and 10 over the years and none of them have displaced this years first and second choice 9 and 10. One thing is for sure, Ross Byrne will work on his development, the guy has worked unbelievably hard. I don't think he has Sexton's talent but then again how does? For me the biggest issue is that the 10's who were due to put pressure on Ross have been coming through for 4 years now. Does there come a point where a line is drawn?
There is no line to be drawn. Or rather it's so far back its not relevant.
If Leinster had zero outhalves in the top 3 or 4 for Ireland then we could change tack and sign someone to compete with him. Otherwise it's Ross v challengers, and it's still a strong situation to be in. We will have to make do with what we have, better to accept that early.
Losing Healy has changed the equation, even though we weren't likely to go down that road, now we can't.
We have Ross, Harry, Tector and Prendergast (and potentially Frawley too), they can't all play clearly.
Observingprop123 wrote: ↑May 29th, 2023, 3:53 pm
Well he doesn't get over the line enough as a winger and I think that shows that he doesn't have the top level pace, he has a very good burst around people but hasn't looked rapid. Don't think his kicking game is particularly great and would never be viewed as an option for an exit. He also isn't particularly great in contact. He has strengths such as a good team player, won't shy away from a tackle etc but I think there's a reason he doesn't really get much game time for Ireland. Not saying he is a bad player at all, just saying I think we could get better there and him dropping to a rotational role for injuries etc rather than out and out starter could improve us.
His try scoring record is passable when he plays on the wing, but poor from fullback. Not too many players with try scoring records that are much better. Rob Russell is the obvious. Nash just scored 5 tries on 7 games, but take that run out and he's fairly unremarkable.
There aren't many players competing with him for a shirt who have serious wheels, or siege cannon boots, or burst people in collisions. Maybe Tommy O'Brien. What he brings as a baller is just so important.
Agree on O'Brien. As an aside Henry Arundell has been told he is free to talk to other clubs given London Irish's sad demise.
We can't sign an outhalf, we have 5 of them for next season.
Back 3 was lighter during an injury crisis. But even discounting the 42 players in the training squad, we'd be able to field a back 3 of Tommy O'Brien, Cosgrave, Larmour, with Russell on the bench. That's fairly strong. And Ngatai and Turner would move there easily enough if we needed.
We'd still be easing King into it and there's a good chance we'll see Andrew Osbourne or McErlean breaking through.
When the Ireland training squad narrows to 33 then we're probably getting back Frawley and Osbourne. And when the RWC finishes we get back Keenan, Lowe and O'Brien.
We might have kept Kearney or O'Reilly, but I don't see how we'd make a signing unless we already knew we were stretched with injuries.
He was a key player in beating us 4 out of 5 years in the Heineken Cup. I think there would have been a business case for paying him to go sit on a beach somewhere rather than keep breaking our hearts.
He's a 140kg tighthead lock who plays like the 150kg player he was but can now do it for 80 minutes and play an open game.
We could play our game and still be a power team if we wanted too.
