Leinster Squad 22-23

[riocard911]

AW Jones is available.

I haven't seen him much this season so I don't know to what extent he's still the same player. He might be motivated by a chance to go out winning something and he'd get to play the Welsh clubs one more time.

If he thinks he has something to prove I don't think he could make a better pick. Obviously he's already a cert for hall of fame if he retires.

He's a shell of his former self. Would be spectacularly poor business for us to pick him up. He isn't going to turn it around at this age.

I agree. He's done.

[Serb]

I know there’s nothing to this really, but thought it was interesting that Leinster posted a tweet thanking all the players that are leaving and didn’t include Sexton in the list

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/statu ... 6135806980

[ronk]

I know there’s nothing to this really, but thought it was interesting that Leinster posted a tweet thanking all the players that are leaving and didn’t include Sexton in the list

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/statu ... 6135806980

He's a Leinster player until the end of the RWC, so he's not gone yet and he's centrally contracted.

[AlligatorCliff]

At this stage do we not have to accept there's something weird going on with the manner Lancaster's teams can look like the best but then usually come up second best?

He had an 80% win ratio in the 6N with England, but finished 2nd four times out of four, winning just one Triple Crown. Schmidt had, I think, a 70% win ratio in the 6N with Ireland, but has three championships to his name, including one Slam.

Then to make four European Cup Finals and lose three of them... I don't remember who the pre-game favourites were for the finals in 2018 and 2019, respectively, but Leinster were big favourites in 2022, and favourites again this season. And they were 8 points up around the hour mark last season, and 17 points up after 12 minutes this season and found ways to lose. We can talk about small margins, but it keeps happening. The last two Euro finals aren't two dissimilar to the England-Wales games in the 2015 WC - England 10 points up deep into the match but contrive to lose it.

Is he just unlucky? No-one can be that unlucky. There's some ingredient missing. Does he not give his teams enough of a tailored plan to neutralise specific opposition? The ability to cleverly manage a way through games that are in the balance isn't really evident.

It goes without saying that he's a brilliant coach when it comes to building a squad of quality players.

Lancaster had a win % with England of 61% not 80%. Schmidt ended up with a win % of 72% with Ireland. Joe's win % at Leinster was 78% while Lancaster's ended at 80% although most importantly Schmidt won the Heineken cup 2 out of 3 seasons while Lancaster was 1 for 7.

[Dexter]

Last year we lost to a walk off try when their player ran into his own player, slipped and crawled over the line from a position he was never going to score from. It was a huge fluke (for a team who'd earned some good luck).

This year almost the same happens. Ball shoots out of a ruck against a set defence that was looking like making a goal line stand and it falls perfectly so they score. And we still almost score on their line.

La Rochelle are a well coached side with world class players, but they're also the luckiest side in the world. We could have overcome that by not being in that position in the first place and if we were a better side we probably would have executed better in the end.

I tend to agree with this, IMO Leinster have been freakishly unlucky in the last couple of years. Possibly there's over-analysis of reasons for the losses.
However, luck tends to even out over time, so I was thinking about how it went our way in other years.
In 2009 we had a tight final, a 3 point game with 2 drop goals and one from the half way line... BUT we also had the 6-5 win against Quins. Games that could have gone either way.
In 2011 we had the famous come-back of course, but the QF was a one score, 7 point, win Vs Leicester. There was the question a forward pass for Isa's try too. Another close game. In the SF vs Toulouse we won by 9, but only because Jonny kicked a long-range pen with the clock dead. It was a one score game coming up to full time.
In 2012, the final was a bit of a blowout but we only squeezed through the SF in Bordeaux, vs Clermont, by 4 points. That was after Fofana dropped the ball over the line when it looked like a try was certain.
In 2018, the final was a close 3 point game and Racing missed a DG at the end. AFAIK they actually led by 3 with about 15 mins to go. There was also some brain dead play by Thomas. Plus I think they had some significant injury withdrawals. Although I think the Racing game plan was mainly to stop Leinster playing, they didn't do an awful lot.

So, while acknowledging that there were issues, sometimes it just doesn't go your way. There's 2 good teams in every final and we got a bit spoilt by winning the 1st 4 we played in.
As a counterbalance, this year Leinster didn't have any one score games in the whole tournament before the final. The closest game was a 15 point margin. This was not the case any other time we won it. Now, it's not Leinster's fault that they're so far ahead of 90% of the other teams in tournament but they didn't have a tight game all year.

[leinsterforever]

Last year we lost to a walk off try when their player ran into his own player, slipped and crawled over the line from a position he was never going to score from. It was a huge fluke (for a team who'd earned some good luck).

This year almost the same happens. Ball shoots out of a ruck against a set defence that was looking like making a goal line stand and it falls perfectly so they score. And we still almost score on their line.

La Rochelle are a well coached side with world class players, but they're also the luckiest side in the world. We could have overcome that by not being in that position in the first place and if we were a better side we probably would have executed better in the end.

I tend to agree with this, IMO Leinster have been freakishly unlucky in the last couple of years. Possibly there's over-analysis of reasons for the losses.
However, luck tends to even out over time, so I was thinking about how it went our way in other years.
In 2009 we had a tight final, a 3 point game with 2 drop goals and one from the half way line... BUT we also had the 6-5 win against Quins. Games that could have gone either way.
In 2011 we had the famous come-back of course, but the QF was a one score, 7 point, win Vs Leicester. There was the question a forward pass for Isa's try too. Another close game. In the SF vs Toulouse we won by 9, but only because Jonny kicked a long-range pen with the clock dead. It was a one score game coming up to full time.
In 2012, the final was a bit of a blowout but we only squeezed through the SF in Bordeaux, vs Clermont, by 4 points. That was after Fofana dropped the ball over the line when it looked like a try was certain.
In 2018, the final was a close 3 point game and Racing missed a DG at the end. AFAIK they actually led by 3 with about 15 mins to go. There was also some brain dead play by Thomas. Plus I think they had some significant injury withdrawals. Although I think the Racing game plan was mainly to stop Leinster playing, they didn't do an awful lot.

So, while acknowledging that there were issues, sometimes it just doesn't go your way. There's 2 good teams in every final and we got a bit spoilt by winning the 1st 4 we played in.
As a counterbalance, this year Leinster didn't have any one score games in the whole tournament before the final. The closest game was a 15 point margin. This was not the case any other time we won it. Now, it's not Leinster's fault that they're so far ahead of 90% of the other teams in tournament but they didn't have a tight game all year.

Let's not forget that Kerr-Barlow missed the Final last season through injury. They had to put Berjon in. That was a massive loss for them and a slice of luck for Leinster.

Similarly Saracens had Alex Goode at 10 in the QF in 2020. Farrell getting himself banned for a high tackle just prior to the big game was a stroke of luck for Leinster.

[leinsterforever]

At this stage do we not have to accept there's something weird going on with the manner Lancaster's teams can look like the best but then usually come up second best?

He had an 80% win ratio in the 6N with England, but finished 2nd four times out of four, winning just one Triple Crown. Schmidt had, I think, a 70% win ratio in the 6N with Ireland, but has three championships to his name, including one Slam.

Then to make four European Cup Finals and lose three of them... I don't remember who the pre-game favourites were for the finals in 2018 and 2019, respectively, but Leinster were big favourites in 2022, and favourites again this season. And they were 8 points up around the hour mark last season, and 17 points up after 12 minutes this season and found ways to lose. We can talk about small margins, but it keeps happening. The last two Euro finals aren't two dissimilar to the England-Wales games in the 2015 WC - England 10 points up deep into the match but contrive to lose it.

Is he just unlucky? No-one can be that unlucky. There's some ingredient missing. Does he not give his teams enough of a tailored plan to neutralise specific opposition? The ability to cleverly manage a way through games that are in the balance isn't really evident.

It goes without saying that he's a brilliant coach when it comes to building a squad of quality players.

Lancaster had a win % with England of 61% not 80%. Schmidt ended up with a win % of 72% with Ireland. Joe's win % at Leinster was 78% while Lancaster's ended at 80% although most importantly Schmidt won the Heineken cup 2 out of 3 seasons while Lancaster was 1 for 7.

I meant just in the 6N. His team won 4 out of 5 for four championships in a row. Wales got a Slam in 2012, and then it was points difference that saw England finish second for the three seasons after that.

I'm surprised to see his overall % is as low as 61. Looking it up it's his records against Wales (won 2, lost 3) and especially SA (won 0, drew 1, lost 4) and NZ (won 1, lost 5) that bring the percentage down. He's got good stats versus France (won 4, lost 2) and Ireland (won 4, lost 1). To be fair back in that era even having one win v the All Blacks would have been seen as success.

[ronk]

To be fair back in that era even having one win v the All Blacks would have been seen as success.

More than we had at that point.

[ronk]

Also when comparing Schmidt's wins, the points should be made that he was taking over a team that was already the favourites.

Then he beat Leicester, Northampton and Ulster. They were stronger then that now, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that we'd expect an easier time against them than what we faced.

After the Ulster win we have a new era with 3 wins for each of Saracens and Toulon, 2 wins for La Rochelle and wins for Exeter and Toulouse in years where Saracens or La Rochelle had knocked us out.

We got easier paths to the top, but came up against top teams that were more loaded with talent. Comparing records is not all that straightforward in that sense.

What Lancaster can point to is that he took over a basket case England team and got them in good shape. He took over a Leinster team that were struggling, he turned us around and the extent to which players he coached have dominated the Ireland team should not be possible.

[leinsterforever]

Also when comparing Schmidt's wins, the points should be made that he was taking over a team that was already the favourites.

Then he beat Leicester, Northampton and Ulster. They were stronger then that now, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that we'd expect an easier time against them than what we faced.

After the Ulster win we have a new era with 3 wins for each of Saracens and Toulon, 2 wins for La Rochelle and wins for Exeter and Toulouse in years where Saracens or La Rochelle had knocked us out.

We got easier paths to the top, but came up against top teams that were more loaded with talent. Comparing records is not all that straightforward in that sense.

What Lancaster can point to is that he took over a basket case England team and got them in good shape. He took over a Leinster team that were struggling, he turned us around and the extent to which players he coached have dominated the Ireland team should not be possible.

Basket case because of the dwarf-tossing and jumping off ferries stuff?

On the field 2011 wasn't a terrible year for England. They won the 6N, and lost to France in the QFs of the RWC after winning all their pool games (Argentina, Scotland, Georgia and Romania were in the pool). Not a brilliant World Cup run, but not disastrous either.

[Dexter]

Last year we lost to a walk off try when their player ran into his own player, slipped and crawled over the line from a position he was never going to score from. It was a huge fluke (for a team who'd earned some good luck).

This year almost the same happens. Ball shoots out of a ruck against a set defence that was looking like making a goal line stand and it falls perfectly so they score. And we still almost score on their line.

La Rochelle are a well coached side with world class players, but they're also the luckiest side in the world. We could have overcome that by not being in that position in the first place and if we were a better side we probably would have executed better in the end.

I tend to agree with this, IMO Leinster have been freakishly unlucky in the last couple of years. Possibly there's over-analysis of reasons for the losses.
However, luck tends to even out over time, so I was thinking about how it went our way in other years.
In 2009 we had a tight final, a 3 point game with 2 drop goals and one from the half way line... BUT we also had the 6-5 win against Quins. Games that could have gone either way.
In 2011 we had the famous come-back of course, but the QF was a one score, 7 point, win Vs Leicester. There was the question a forward pass for Isa's try too. Another close game. In the SF vs Toulouse we won by 9, but only because Jonny kicked a long-range pen with the clock dead. It was a one score game coming up to full time.
In 2012, the final was a bit of a blowout but we only squeezed through the SF in Bordeaux, vs Clermont, by 4 points. That was after Fofana dropped the ball over the line when it looked like a try was certain.
In 2018, the final was a close 3 point game and Racing missed a DG at the end. AFAIK they actually led by 3 with about 15 mins to go. There was also some brain dead play by Thomas. Plus I think they had some significant injury withdrawals. Although I think the Racing game plan was mainly to stop Leinster playing, they didn't do an awful lot.

So, while acknowledging that there were issues, sometimes it just doesn't go your way. There's 2 good teams in every final and we got a bit spoilt by winning the 1st 4 we played in.
As a counterbalance, this year Leinster didn't have any one score games in the whole tournament before the final. The closest game was a 15 point margin. This was not the case any other time we won it. Now, it's not Leinster's fault that they're so far ahead of 90% of the other teams in tournament but they didn't have a tight game all year.

Let's not forget that Kerr-Barlow missed the Final last season through injury. They had to put Berjon in. That was a massive loss for them and a slice of luck for Leinster.

Similarly Saracens had Alex Goode at 10 in the QF in 2020. Farrell getting himself banned for a high tackle just prior to the big game was a stroke of luck for Leinster.

Yeah,that's not really the point I was trying to make. You could go on forever about this team were missing that player, including games that Leinster won.
Anyway, I should have stuck to my intention of staying off the forum for the summer, it's still too raw for me.

[Theleinsterlad]

Any potential options in the London irish squad for us?

[ronk]

Any potential options in the London irish squad for us?

Not really Leinster's style to be opportunistic. We've reached a point where it's so expensive to improve our XV we can't easily do it, and we have to go far enough down the depth chart on the other side that it's usually not worth signing someone.

HOS is already gone, Parker is the wrong profile but might fit elsewhere.

[propertymad]

I'd sign Retallick to replace Jenkins and Frischetti to replace Al'alatoa on the NIQ roster

London irish can't afford to keep Frischetti and Retallick will retire from international rugby post World Cup

I know Frischetti is a loosehead but I have more confidence in Clarkson getting to the top standard at tighthead, than I do in Milne getting to the top standard at loosehead when Healy's gone

Frischetti is a good player, but LH is not a position of need for us. I thought that Milne had an excellent second half of the season and has made a big stride forward in 2023. He is a powerful guy in that he can generate a lot of force quickly. I like his carrying and his nose for the try-line – he battered his way over the line for six tries in the last six games of the seasons, including tries against all four of the South African teams.

Scrummaging is still a bit of a work-on for him, but in the way that it is a work-on for all young props. You need your loosehead to be able to carry the ball and win contacts, that is an important part of the game. It's not an optional extra anymore.

Clarkson doesn't have Milne's explosiveness and he has huge work-ons as a scrummager – he conceded 12 scrum penalties in the league this year, the third most of any player in the league [source: https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/leins ... s-clarkson ]. Scrummaging is foundational to a tighthead. It's a tougher job on the right than on the left, and Clarkson has quite a lot further to go on his side of the scrum than Milne has on the left.

I've said it before and will say it for the umpteenth time here – we need to get more out of Vahk. The nature of our system in Leinster is that we don't go out and buy a load of players, we develop them. The downside of that is it takes time. There are very few quick fixes. Jack Boyle and Paddy McCarthy look like great prospects, but we are judged on games in May, and those lads won't be ready for next May.

We have put the time into Vakh, and he's got another year to run on his deal. He's a 27 year old 185cm/121kg Georgian international TH. I think there is the potential for him to be one of the few 'quick fixes'. He's been in the pro system for six years and has a lot of pro level strength and conditioning behind him. And he was a big guy to start with! I bumped into him on the stairs at the after-match do in Lansdowne Road after the URC semi-final and he's a big lump. But my point is that he's not a guy who was a 108kg U20 last year who you are trying to put 7kg on in a year. The size is there.

In France, Top14 teams pick up props in their mid-to-late 20s from ProD2 clubs as a matter of course. You don't see many young props playing for the likes of Toulouse, La Rochelle, Lyon, Racing etc. Guys do their time in the lower divisions until they are strong enough and experienced enough to step up to the top league. I think that Vakh could be a player like that for us next season.

I don't think he was a good fit for Lancaster's style, because he's not very aerobically fit. But a lot of THs have to play games to stay fit - Mike Ross was an absolute classic in this regard, Malherbe is the same, Atonio is the same. Marty Moore is another. From the sounds of things, Rhys Carre is the same.

good points, well made

I just think Clarkson is going to be an absolute gem

[propertymad]

Beyond that, Munster and Ulster have been allowed to sign World Cup winners [De Allende, Snyman, Vermeulen, Kitshoff]; there's no ban on Irish provinces signing big name players, there has just been a de facto ban on Leinster doing it. And if those teams can spring the cash for that sort of player, it's difficult to believe that we can't.

Other provinces sign world class players because they don't produce them. We produce world class players, we're not going to sign players that are, as in at least 50% of the examples you gave above, inferior to what we produce locally.

The reality is that we could sign all the players in the world, but if they aren't well coached then you're Paris Saint Germain - and for the last couple of years we've been a lot more PSG than Real Madrid. Look great in facile wins in the league, unable to get the job done when it matters.

Yeah, I disagree.

The idea that we're not, or haven't been, well-coached ... I can't agree with that at all. It's acute disappointment speaking.

Lose two European cup finals by 3 points and 1 point respectively with the game in the mix until the absolute death of it, against a team who have made the last three European finals in a row, and doing that with a team full of local lads and three journeymen NIQ players with a total of 14 caps between them – 12 of those caps for Samoa, currently ranked 12th in the world - and we aren't well-coached? The main reason we are there is because we are well-coached.

I saw Hugo Keenan's first pro game for Leinster, against Northampton in a pre-season friendly in Donnybrook. It was a f*cking disaster. There was incredibly little difference between Hugo Keenan and Matt Byrne who played on opposite wings for the Irish U20s in the JWC in 2016. They were the same player. The difference between them started when Hugo Keenan went into the Leinster academy. It turns out that Keenan had waaaaaaay more upside than Matt, but identifying upside is a massive part of coaching.

Shane Daly was a hell of a talent as an U20 – more talented by a stretch than either Keenan or Byrne – and he's only beginning to play to his potential at Munster. Bill Johnson was another player who had buckets of talent in that same team and made SFA progress as a pro. Jack O'Sullivan looked almost as good as Doris for the Irish U20s [for example: https://www.the42.ie/jack-osullivan-ire ... 6-Mar2018/ ], but he hasn't done anything even comparable as a pro. You can take coaching for granted when it's good coaching and all your ugly ducklings turn into swans, but it's a real rarity across the game.

We've got a number of players who were big natural talents before they came into Leinster – Porter, Furlong, Ryan, Doris, Henshaw, Ringrose – but we have also got a fair few lads who'd be comme ci comme ca if they were playing elsewhere and weren't being coached exceptionally well in a really competitive environment.

Jimmy O'Brien could barely make the Irish U20s squad as an inside centre. Dan Sheehan didn't make the Irish U20s as an anything. Josh van der Flier was an undersized runaround openside who wouldn't say boo to a goose when he was an U20. Jamison Gibson Park had made all of six Super 15 starts when he joined Leinster. James Lowe couldn't make the New Zealand U20s.

Look at how Carbery did outside the Leinster environment. He looked like a phenomenal talent at Leinster. You move him to another big, well-resourced club and he stumbled gradually downwards until he fell off the bottom step. Injuries? Do you honestly think that torn ankle ligaments and a broken wrist at Leinster would have meant his career corpsing? Nah. You take him from an environment where he was really well-coached to an environment where he was averagely coached and you see a much bigger fall-off than you would expect.

We're not perfect, we've got a couple issues to figure out ... but we're the second best team in Europe and a seriously short fingernail away from being the best team in Europe. We are doing a hell of a lot of things right.

My take on it is that the season's end has been really disappointing, but I am disappointed for the lads, not by the lads. I don't think that they have let us down, and I don't think that the coaches have let them down. It's knock-out rugby, it can be tough on the guts. To borrow several boxing idioms, we've got to get back off the canvas next season, bite down on the gumshield, and finish the round strong.

And on the pragmatic side of things, you look at the years when we have won the European Cup - 2009, 2011, 2012, 2018 – and you see the contributions that Elsom, Hines, Thorn and Fardy made, all of them big men, all of them experienced foreign internationals, and it is not irrational to think that we could do with same again to get us the extra per cent that we need.

This.

Absolutely this .....

You've got a much better handle on the situation that any of our national media rugby scribes Hugonaut.

Worth adding in the salient point that O'Gara's so-called "Small Club" has signed (as opposed to developed) about 20 of the 23-man squad that Leinster faced in the final

I wonder how great a coach Leo would look if he could sign Skelton, Sclavi, Lleyds, Rhule, Bottia, Seuteni et al

I genuinely believe we are a quality lock (and maybe a back up prop) away from winning everything next year. Retallick could be the missing link.

[propertymad]

Any potential options in the London irish squad for us?

Not really Leinster's style to be opportunistic. We've reached a point where it's so expensive to improve our XV we can't easily do it, and we have to go far enough down the depth chart on the other side that it's usually not worth signing someone.

HOS is already gone, Parker is the wrong profile but might fit elsewhere.

Fischetti would be good short term business as back up to Porter

[Observingprop123]

]

good points, well made

I just think Clarkson is going to be an absolute gem

Why do you think this? The amount of scrum penalties he has given away makes me concerned about him ever being capable against the best scrums. Maybe we change things up next year but the stats are concerning.

[Flash Gordon]

Any potential options in the London irish squad for us?

Not really Leinster's style to be opportunistic. We've reached a point where it's so expensive to improve our XV we can't easily do it, and we have to go far enough down the depth chart on the other side that it's usually not worth signing someone.

HOS is already gone, Parker is the wrong profile but might fit elsewhere.

Fischetti would be good short term business as back up to Porter

Was thinking the same but he'll be tied up with Italy for the RWC so would be post that.

[ronk]

Any potential options in the London irish squad for us?

Not really Leinster's style to be opportunistic. We've reached a point where it's so expensive to improve our XV we can't easily do it, and we have to go far enough down the depth chart on the other side that it's usually not worth signing someone.

HOS is already gone, Parker is the wrong profile but might fit elsewhere.

Fischetti would be good short term business as back up to Porter

Well maybe. I mean good player and all that, strengthen the squad obviously. But it's paying starter money for incremental improvement down the depth chart. Now ask a different question, would Fischetti meaningfully move the dial in terms of our odds (bookie and pundit) of winning next season. If not then why are we making the signing? If hes part of a package of signings, then that's another discussion.

Leinster have Porter, Healy (not confirmed as retiring and still making Ireland 23s), Byrne (injury problems this season), Milne. Plus Boyle and Lasisi. We were able to cut Hannan and pass on Hadden. Ulster signed Kitshoff, there's change coming in the Ireland depth chart with Healy and Kilcoyne near the end of the road. We don't have a strong case with Nucifora for making a signing at loosehead. Same at outhalf.

There's 1 position where we could make 1 signing to turn the weakest position in the team to one of the strongest without breaking anything on the Ireland team and it's the same position (ish) with the same type signing as we had for our 4 Heineken Cup final wins.

Now maybe Jenkins is that guy with a run of games without injury and Nienaber in place. But the right signing there and it will be obvious to everyone that it changes everything.

[FtD]

Beyond that, Munster and Ulster have been allowed to sign World Cup winners [De Allende, Snyman, Vermeulen, Kitshoff]; there's no ban on Irish provinces signing big name players, there has just been a de facto ban on Leinster doing it. And if those teams can spring the cash for that sort of player, it's difficult to believe that we can't.

Other provinces sign world class players because they don't produce them. We produce world class players, we're not going to sign players that are, as in at least 50% of the examples you gave above, inferior to what we produce locally.

The reality is that we could sign all the players in the world, but if they aren't well coached then you're Paris Saint Germain - and for the last couple of years we've been a lot more PSG than Real Madrid. Look great in facile wins in the league, unable to get the job done when it matters.

Yeah, I disagree.

The idea that we're not, or haven't been, well-coached ... I can't agree with that at all. It's acute disappointment speaking.

Lose two European cup finals by 3 points and 1 point respectively with the game in the mix until the absolute death of it, against a team who have made the last three European finals in a row, and doing that with a team full of local lads and three journeymen NIQ players with a total of 14 caps between them – 12 of those caps for Samoa, currently ranked 12th in the world - and we aren't well-coached? The main reason we are there is because we are well-coached.

I saw Hugo Keenan's first pro game for Leinster, against Northampton in a pre-season friendly in Donnybrook. It was a f*cking disaster. There was incredibly little difference between Hugo Keenan and Matt Byrne who played on opposite wings for the Irish U20s in the JWC in 2016. They were the same player. The difference between them started when Hugo Keenan went into the Leinster academy. It turns out that Keenan had waaaaaaay more upside than Matt, but identifying upside is a massive part of coaching.

Shane Daly was a hell of a talent as an U20 – more talented by a stretch than either Keenan or Byrne – and he's only beginning to play to his potential at Munster. Bill Johnson was another player who had buckets of talent in that same team and made SFA progress as a pro. Jack O'Sullivan looked almost as good as Doris for the Irish U20s [for example: https://www.the42.ie/jack-osullivan-ire ... 6-Mar2018/ ], but he hasn't done anything even comparable as a pro. You can take coaching for granted when it's good coaching and all your ugly ducklings turn into swans, but it's a real rarity across the game.

We've got a number of players who were big natural talents before they came into Leinster – Porter, Furlong, Ryan, Doris, Henshaw, Ringrose – but we have also got a fair few lads who'd be comme ci comme ca if they were playing elsewhere and weren't being coached exceptionally well in a really competitive environment.

Jimmy O'Brien could barely make the Irish U20s squad as an inside centre. Dan Sheehan didn't make the Irish U20s as an anything. Josh van der Flier was an undersized runaround openside who wouldn't say boo to a goose when he was an U20. Jamison Gibson Park had made all of six Super 15 starts when he joined Leinster. James Lowe couldn't make the New Zealand U20s.

Look at how Carbery did outside the Leinster environment. He looked like a phenomenal talent at Leinster. You move him to another big, well-resourced club and he stumbled gradually downwards until he fell off the bottom step. Injuries? Do you honestly think that torn ankle ligaments and a broken wrist at Leinster would have meant his career corpsing? Nah. You take him from an environment where he was really well-coached to an environment where he was averagely coached and you see a much bigger fall-off than you would expect.

We're not perfect, we've got a couple issues to figure out ... but we're the second best team in Europe and a seriously short fingernail away from being the best team in Europe. We are doing a hell of a lot of things right.

My take on it is that the season's end has been really disappointing, but I am disappointed for the lads, not by the lads. I don't think that they have let us down, and I don't think that the coaches have let them down. It's knock-out rugby, it can be tough on the guts. To borrow several boxing idioms, we've got to get back off the canvas next season, bite down on the gumshield, and finish the round strong.

And on the pragmatic side of things, you look at the years when we have won the European Cup - 2009, 2011, 2012, 2018 – and you see the contributions that Elsom, Hines, Thorn and Fardy made, all of them big men, all of them experienced foreign internationals, and it is not irrational to think that we could do with same again to get us the extra per cent that we need.

This is a brilliant post - nail on the head stuff.