Eddie Jones blames public schools for building 'compliant' rugby players

[FLIP]

Eddie Jones has his own beef with public schools and the stereotypical output from them based on how he was treated in his playing days in Australia. What he says on this has to take that into account.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Eddie Jones has his own beef with public schools and the stereotypical output from them based on how he was treated in his playing days in Australia. What he says on this has to take that into account.

There is some merit in what you say but lets not forget the fact that he’s a massive f%~king troll

[riocard911]

Eddie Jones has his own beef with public schools and the stereotypical output from them based on how he was treated in his playing days in Australia. What he says on this has to take that into account.

There is some merit in what you say but lets not forget the fact that he’s a massive f%~king troll

... with a massive chip on each shoulder to boot!!!

[wixfjord]

Whatever you say about Jones and his trolling, he does have a point here.


Lancaster in 2019:

“There are so many different personality types,” Lancaster explains. “What I found over here is a lot of the players are quiet, they are detail-orientated. They are very respectful of coaches and what they say and everything else, which is great, great qualities but equally they need to be leaders on the field. So, sometimes, you’ve got to push this person who is traditionally quite reserved and quite quiet to be more vocal in meetings, to be more vocal in training sessions, to be more vocal in games because ultimately they are the ones that drive the performance.

“From my point of view we are trying to grow the leadership within the organisation and in the team mainly because the top-end players . . . I mean, Johnny is not an introverted person. Sean O’Brien was not an introvert.”

"I wouldn’t describe it as a drawback because ultimately the strength of the schools system in Leinster is there for everyone to see. It’s amazing what it creates in terms of the competition, the talent pool, but there’s no doubt that part of independent thinking and player ownership and leadership is by doing things on your own, not having coaches to spoon-feed you all the time.

“I’m not saying they do that in the schools system.

“I’ve done three sessions with all the schools coaches and I’ve talked a lot about the balance between the structured and unstructured game and how, at school level, it’s important to allow them to do that. Because it’s all very well and good that a player is comfortable in his schools system, but as soon as he leaves that and comes to university or comes to Leinster to play in a different system, they have to be independent and be adaptable.

“So I don’t think it’s a drawback but it’s certainly something that could be a weakness if you allowed it to be.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4094773

I would agree with that.

What he's saying is that there's huge benefits to basically being treated like a pro rugby player from 16 - 21 in an environment where you're with like minded people, living at home and given all the opportunities. There's also a lot of 'cohesion' developed between guys who have played together for that long. We more than any team benefit to that.

It's a double sided coin though.

There could also have problems associated with this in terms of developing resilience, diversity, independent thinking and not having enough outside opinions (look at our coaching team, diversity of opinions is clearly a priority).

So we need to sustain the schools system and continue to invest in the production line.

But we also need to ensure we're pushing the players that come from it to develop their own character and come out of their shell (as Lancaster says above).

While also giving those from outside 'traditional' pathways greater opportunities and making their journey to the top simpler.

[Flash Gordon]

I just don't see the evidence for this. We won 4 European Cups and 6 Nations with players who came through this system - nobdoy can tell me that 2011 team didn't have resilience or leadership. Same for the 2009 team. The 2018 team balls out a tough and tight game and it was Racing who bottled it. I understand that some players are introverts but that's nothing to do with schooling, it's the way you are born. What coaching and leadership does is teach you the way to play. We've seen that in our history - same players transforming with coaching, the most dramatic incidence being what Michael Chieka made Leinster in my opinion. The most dramatic reverse being MOC.

Most clubs would have coaching specifically pointed at developing leadership skills and resilience. You do that in the classroom but you also train the scenarios on the park. They also coach confidence into you - you can see that with players coming in and how they transform - Tommy O'Brien is a case in point. Great kid with a fantastic attitude who has become a much better player by putting himself out there and trying things he wouldn't have.

And again to repeat the point, diversity is a good thing. More of it will make us stronger and broaden the talent pool.

[wixfjord]

I just don't see the evidence for this. We won 4 European Cups and 6 Nations with players who came through this system - nobdoy can tell me that 2011 team didn't have resilience or leadership. Same for the 2009 team. The 2018 team balls out a tough and tight game and it was Racing who bottled it. I understand that some players are introverts but that's nothing to do with schooling, it's the way you are born. What coaching and leadership does is teach you the way to play. We've seen that in our history - same players transforming with coaching, the most dramatic incidence being what Michael Chieka made Leinster in my opinion. The most dramatic reverse being MOC.

Most clubs would have coaching specifically pointed at developing leadership skills and resilience. You do that in the classroom but you also train the scenarios on the park. They also coach confidence into you - you can see that with players coming in and how they transform - Tommy O'Brien is a case in point. Great kid with a fantastic attitude who has become a much better player by putting himself out there and trying things he wouldn't have.

And again to repeat the point, diversity is a good thing. More of it will make us stronger and broaden the talent pool.

Did you attend a private school yourself?

[Oldschoolsocks]

I just don't see the evidence for this. We won 4 European Cups and 6 Nations with players who came through this system - nobdoy can tell me that 2011 team didn't have resilience or leadership. Same for the 2009 team. The 2018 team balls out a tough and tight game and it was Racing who bottled it. I understand that some players are introverts but that's nothing to do with schooling, it's the way you are born. What coaching and leadership does is teach you the way to play. We've seen that in our history - same players transforming with coaching, the most dramatic incidence being what Michael Chieka made Leinster in my opinion. The most dramatic reverse being MOC.

Most clubs would have coaching specifically pointed at developing leadership skills and resilience. You do that in the classroom but you also train the scenarios on the park. They also coach confidence into you - you can see that with players coming in and how they transform - Tommy O'Brien is a case in point. Great kid with a fantastic attitude who has become a much better player by putting himself out there and trying things he wouldn't have.

And again to repeat the point, diversity is a good thing. More of it will make us stronger and broaden the talent pool.

Did you attend a private school yourself?

I didn’t go to a private school, but I played with many a mad hard b$&%@#d who did…

[blaker]

I think any overly homogenous group / culture CAN be problematic. Not always, and not nececessarilly in the short term but there are myriad examples of monoculture / group think failing to see or manage issues.

I think people are ascribing physical softness with what Jones / Stu said and I don’t think that’s it. I also don’t think Jones is saying he’d like a team of ASBOs.

I would argue that Dan Leavy is a great example of what Jones wants in a player but who disproves his arguement. Dan was very tough but I doubt he was much tougher than Ruddock for example. What he did have was - serious science here - a go F@@k yourself I’m winning - type of attitude. So did Sean O Brien. I suspect Jones arguement is that perhaps a background of comfort and not REALLY having to fight for what you get shaves the 1 or 2% edge off a player that might make all the difference

[wixfjord]

I think any overly homogenous group / culture CAN be problematic. Not always, and not nececessarilly in the short term but there are myriad examples of monoculture / group think failing to see or manage issues.

I think people are ascribing physical softness with what Jones / Stu said and I don’t think that’s it. I also don’t think Jones is saying he’d like a team of ASBOs.

I would argue that Dan Leavy is a great example of what Jones wants in a player but who disproves his arguement. Dan was very tough but I doubt he was much tougher than Ruddock for example. What he did have was - serious science here - a go F@@k yourself I’m winning - type of attitude. So did Sean O Brien. I suspect Jones arguement is that perhaps a background of comfort and not REALLY having to fight for what you get shaves the 1 or 2% edge off a player that might make all the difference

Yes, I don't know where that has come from as it's not what I'm discussing at all.

[the spoofer]

I just don't see the evidence for this. We won 4 European Cups and 6 Nations with players who came through this system - nobdoy can tell me that 2011 team didn't have resilience or leadership. Same for the 2009 team. The 2018 team balls out a tough and tight game and it was Racing who bottled it. I understand that some players are introverts but that's nothing to do with schooling, it's the way you are born. What coaching and leadership does is teach you the way to play. We've seen that in our history - same players transforming with coaching, the most dramatic incidence being what Michael Chieka made Leinster in my opinion. The most dramatic reverse being MOC.

Most clubs would have coaching specifically pointed at developing leadership skills and resilience. You do that in the classroom but you also train the scenarios on the park. They also coach confidence into you - you can see that with players coming in and how they transform - Tommy O'Brien is a case in point. Great kid with a fantastic attitude who has become a much better player by putting himself out there and trying things he wouldn't have.

And again to repeat the point, diversity is a good thing. More of it will make us stronger and broaden the talent pool.

Did you attend a private school yourself?

I attended both and there was little/no difference other than the educational standards in the private school were higher. Most schools focus on sport, private schools may be rugby while public schools were often GAA.

[The Doc]

Why are people conflating all sorts of things here - Lancaster wasn't talking about toughness, or resilience or leadership or confidence or any of these things. His point was about a healthy level of questioning - if you go through your teenage years in a quasi-professional environment where you learn to implement the plan rather than question it (because you don't have the experience to be able to debate) - then that can carry through to the pro team.

And I don't think he was saying everyone has to change - it was to explain why it was important to have some other approaches or voices in the playing group

[Flash Gordon]

Why are people conflating all sorts of things here - Lancaster wasn't talking about toughness, or resilience or leadership or confidence or any of these things. His point was about a healthy level of questioning - if you go through your teenage years in a quasi-professional environment where you learn to implement the plan rather than question it (because you don't have the experience to be able to debate) - then that can carry through to the pro team.

And I don't think he was saying everyone has to change - it was to explain why it was important to have some other approaches or voices in the playing group

I'm pretty sure Ellis Genge wasn't in the debating society. Again, this isn't a school thing, you're not more likely to question or challenge because you went a non-private school it's a function of the environment you create. Ireland famously made a breakthrough performance and culture wise when Rob Kearney stood up in a team meeting and suggested that some squad members felt that the Munster lads weren't as committed to Ireland as Munster. That wasn't true of course but the fact that the environment was here that he could say that was critical.

I'd always respect what Lancaster says and he is obviously closer to any of the players than we are but as someone said earlier, Eddie Jones is a massive troll and he's also somebody who is looking for excuses to avoid accountability for the fact that England aren't as good as they should be at the moment and in their response the RFU have called him on the comment.