Leinster Academy 22-23

[mildlyinterested]

Any idea when they will announce an u20s squad for summer training?

They don't usually.

[Plámásing]

I dont think it will be regardless, if he doesnt perform over the summer and next season he wont get a place.

Apologies, "regardless" is a bit extreme but I'm sure he’ll be able to perform well enough to be in the mix. My point is that it seems to me that very early on, certain players, especially the hyped schools players/NTS selected players, are positioned as shoo-ins for academy contracts. I think this marginalises or even excludes some very good players with possibly equal/more potential who are never going to get an equivalent chance or window as the chosen ones are handed most of the opportunities.

I've thought the same in the past from my own experiences playing against players. Fast forward a few years and it shows that the coaches and scouts know a lot more than I do. The players who I've thought have got shafted haven't turned themselves into much of note, where as the players the coaches handpicked have hit incredible levels.

I think good example is Caelan Doris. He was far from hyped up in his year in school, but the coaches saw his incredible talent and he seamlessly moved up the ranks without much hype about him. Now he is without question one of the best players in the world.

Some skills intangible rather than purely athletic skills. For example Coffey could be the hardest working player behind the scenes, a great leader, and may fit better into other systems which other players might not. I'd trust the coaches that see them in training and their opinions. Sure they'll get a few players wrong here and there, but its impossible not to.

What you have just done is talk about hype and then done it yourself calling one of your own Doris one of the best players in the world. A tad hypocritical there? Doris is a phenomenal player but would he get into all of the Top 14 sides? He is too small for the way French like their players. I think he might make a few of the bottom teams but even then I’m not so sure.

Perhaps you’re mistaking support for hype. And in certain quarters which are renowned for hyping up their players eg Michaels there seems to be only one person doing it on this website. You can be proud of players and supportive of them publicly without giving them the unmistakable label of being a potential pro. Slightly over egging your point there? You come across as emotional with buckets of hidden bias behind your musings.

You’re basing your assessment on Doris on the fact Ireland have won a grand slam and a tour down in New Zealand against one of the worst New Zealand sides ever. Yes we won the grand slam and Doris was one of our best players but to overhype him now would be falling for the same trap so many other people have fallen for. He might get injured and have his career finish. Is he better than Costello, Miller, O’Brien, Wallace, Ferris, Heaslip? I’m not so sure.

There are many subjective reasons you have made this assessment on but international competition isn’t as good now as it was ten years ago. I would argue England, New Zealand, Australia and even France (outside of their halfbacks are they really that good? to my mind they are generally slightly flattered and don’t have star studded lineups like they used to) are a long way from their historical dominance. Perhaps that’s one of the reasons Doris looks so good against foreign competition but you don’t say that because you’re interested in building up a player regardless of impartiality.

As to your point on selectors getting it right and identifying talent in training, I agree, I trust their judgement and impartiality. And in terms of certain players fitting into systems and others not so well, that depends on the traits they look for in players. For a coach who was brought up in one style of rugby and one environment, do you think it might be understandable if they look for the same traits they see as important? There are tonnes of unconscious reasons a coach selects a player over others, I don’t doubt their bona fides and intentional impartiality, but is it coincidental there are few players outside the traditional powerhouses in the squad Michaels aside?

[mildlyinterested]

I haven't seen Murtagh but have been watching Coffey and Brophy over the past few months. For me, Brophy looks much more of a threatening 9 (quicker on his feet, higher tempo, eye for a snipe) but not sure about his kicking and defense. From what I've seem of Coffey so far, I haven't been hugely impressed (decent pass, looks like a good place and box kicker but box kicks seemed inconsistent) but as Mildly mentioned in another thread, it looks like he is the chosen one that will be pushed through to the Leinster academy (24/25) regardless. It will be interesting to see it unfold for sure.

I dont think it will be regardless, if he doesnt perform over the summer and next season he wont get a place.

Apologies, "regardless" is a bit extreme but I'm sure he’ll be able to perform well enough to be in the mix. My point is that it seems to me that very early on, certain players, especially the hyped schools players/NTS selected players, are positioned as shoo-ins for academy contracts. I think this marginalises or even excludes some very good players with possibly equal/more potential who are never going to get an equivalent chance or window as the chosen ones are handed most of the opportunities.

I think the academy and underage coaches see these players an awful lot and while there can be mistakes made its fairly rare in recent years. I don't think they play favourites, though it can appear that way at times.

[paddyor]

What you have just done is talk about hype and then done it yourself calling one of your own Doris one of the best players in the world. A tad hypocritical there? Doris is a phenomenal player but would he get into all of the Top 14 sides? He is too small for the way French like their players I think he might make a few of the bottom teams but even then I’m not so sure.

The French have no time for forwards who are *checks notes* 6ft 4 and 106kg?

He’s as big as mercer, gros, jelonch, roumat and many more. Isn’t Sam simmonds on his way to France next season? The French default to big lumps but they absolutely have a place for lighter workhorses like jelonch or mercer. Like he might not make it at 8 ahead of aldritt in LAR, but I could see him squeezing out Dillane. And the French play left and right so he’s a perfect fit across the backrow.

[FtD]

Apologies, "regardless" is a bit extreme but I'm sure he’ll be able to perform well enough to be in the mix. My point is that it seems to me that very early on, certain players, especially the hyped schools players/NTS selected players, are positioned as shoo-ins for academy contracts. I think this marginalises or even excludes some very good players with possibly equal/more potential who are never going to get an equivalent chance or window as the chosen ones are handed most of the opportunities.

I've thought the same in the past from my own experiences playing against players. Fast forward a few years and it shows that the coaches and scouts know a lot more than I do. The players who I've thought have got shafted haven't turned themselves into much of note, where as the players the coaches handpicked have hit incredible levels.

I think good example is Caelan Doris. He was far from hyped up in his year in school, but the coaches saw his incredible talent and he seamlessly moved up the ranks without much hype about him. Now he is without question one of the best players in the world.

Some skills intangible rather than purely athletic skills. For example Coffey could be the hardest working player behind the scenes, a great leader, and may fit better into other systems which other players might not. I'd trust the coaches that see them in training and their opinions. Sure they'll get a few players wrong here and there, but its impossible not to.

What you have just done is talk about hype and then done it yourself calling one of your own Doris one of the best players in the world. A tad hypocritical there? Doris is a phenomenal player but would he get into all of the Top 14 sides? He is too small for the way French like their players. I think he might make a few of the bottom teams but even then I’m not so sure.

Perhaps you’re mistaking support for hype. And in certain quarters which are renowned for hyping up their players eg Michaels there seems to be only one person doing it on this website. You can be proud of players and supportive of them publicly without giving them the unmistakable label of being a potential pro. Slightly over egging your point there? You come across as emotional with buckets of hidden bias behind your musings.

You’re basing your assessment on Doris on the fact Ireland have won a grand slam and a tour down in New Zealand against one of the worst New Zealand sides ever. Yes we won the grand slam and Doris was one of our best players but to overhype him now would be falling for the same trap so many other people have fallen for. He might get injured and have his career finish. Is he better than Costello, Miller, O’Brien, Wallace, Ferris, Heaslip? I’m not so sure.

There are many subjective reasons you have made this assessment on but international competition isn’t as good now as it was ten years ago. I would argue England, New Zealand, Australia and even France (outside of their halfbacks are they really that good? to my mind they are generally slightly flattered and don’t have star studded lineups like they used to) are a long way from their historical dominance. Perhaps that’s one of the reasons Doris looks so good against foreign competition but you don’t say that because you’re interested in building up a player regardless of impartiality.

As to your point on selectors getting it right and identifying talent in training, I agree, I trust their judgement and impartiality. And in terms of certain players fitting into systems and others not so well, that depends on the traits they look for in players. For a coach who was brought up in one style of rugby and one environment, do you think it might be understandable if they look for the same traits they see as important? There are tonnes of unconscious reasons a coach selects a player over others, I don’t doubt their bona fides and intentional impartiality, but is it coincidental there are few players outside the traditional powerhouses in the squad Michaels aside?

Caelan Doris would struggle to get into half the teams in the Top 14?!

Congratulations, that's the dumbest thing I'll read all week.

He'd start for the French national team, he'd start for Toulouse, or La Rochelle.

The All Blacks would find a slot for him in their back row.

You're either smoking crack or you wouldn't know a rugby ball if it hit you in the face if you don't think Caelan Doris is one of the best players in the world over the past 18 months or so.

[arsebiscuits1]

Incoherent waffle about Doris that has no business being quoted directly

Boards.ie is leaking

[Observingprop123]

Boards.ie is leaking

Genuinely flabbergasted that I could both be given abuse for saying the only forward nominated for player of the tournament at the 6 nations is good at rugby, while agreeing with everything else I said. Only on the Internet.

[Plámásing]

I didn’t mean it to come across as abusive when I was writing it but on second reading I can see how you might take the emotional part as a personal insult. It was meant to highlight what I thought were your motivations for making what I thought was a hypocritical comment. After all, you then came out and called him without doubt one of the best in the world. There are some people that vocally support players on here and why not. It is used by many to turn it back against them and misrepresent it as “hype”.

Your comment about Rueben Moloney previously was what I would call hype. A tad hypocritical? I took your comment on Doris having relatively no hype coming through as incorrect and also as a slight at those people who supposedly do hype up players. By implication suggesting that Blackrock don’t hype up their players. There was plenty of talk about Doris after his schools career and to say there wasn’t is just wrong.

[Observingprop123]

I didn’t mean it to come across as abusive when I was writing it but on second reading I can see how you might take the emotional part as a personal insult. It was meant to highlight what I thought were your motivations for making what I thought was a hypocritical comment. After all, you then came out and called him without doubt one of the best in the world. There are some people that vocally support players on here and why not. It is used by many to turn it back against them and misrepresent it as “hype”.

Your comment about Rueben Moloney previously was what I would call hype. A tad hypocritical? I took your comment on Doris having relatively no hype coming through as incorrect and also as a slight at those people who supposedly do hype up players. By implication suggesting that Blackrock don’t hype up their players. There was plenty of talk about Doris after his schools career and to say there wasn’t is just wrong.

Only player I've hyped is Sam Prendergast. I asked the Moloney question because when I watched him play he looked like he had potential and looked a classy operator. I've no idea if he will be good a level or 2 up, but would like to see it.

Doris was talked about after his schools career I'd say but wasn't one of the names I personally heard during his time in school(and I heard a lot of names of players who did and didn't make it). I could be mistaken with this but alas its not the end of the world. It was only a point to illustrate the coaches seem to know what they're doing.

[RoboProp]

Incoherent waffle about Doris that has no business being quoted directly

Boards.ie is leaking

True, This is what happens when people who eat paint chips are allowed near a computer!

[OTT]

The nerves are eating away at me today. This thread is a tonic, thanks for the laugh Plámásing, I needed it

[mildlyinterested]

Potential Leinster 19s

Prop
James Wyse(Clongowes)
Alex Usanov(Belvedere)
Alex Mullan(Blackrock)
Riain Coogan(St. Michaels)
Adam Watchorn(Kilkenny)
Kieran Hunter(Wicklow RFC)
Tadhg Ronan(Carlow RFC)

Hooker
Tom Stewart(St. Michaels)
Mikey Yarr(Blackrock)
Fionn Hickey(Tullow RFC)

Lock
Alan Spicer(Belvedere)
Billy Corrigan(Pres Bray)
Ronan Mahon(Boyne RFC)
Tom Chadwick(CBC Monkstown)

Backrow
James White(St. Michaels)
Jack Angulo(Blackrock)
Aaron O'Brien(St. Marys)
Sam Corrgian(St. Michaels)
Ruairi Munnelly(Newbridge)
Paddy Bramley(Kilkenny College)
Jack Boyan(Mullingar RFC)

Scrumhalf
Tom Murtagh(Clongowes)
Andrew Doyle(Athy RFC)
Dylan Kelly(Portlaoise RFC)

Outhalf
Casper Gabriel (Terenure)
Sam Wisniewski(Castleknock)
Tadhg Duff(Boyne RFC)

Centre
Evan Moynihan(St. Marys)
Paddy Taylor(Newbridge)
Connor Fahy(Wexford RFC)
Andrew Cosgrave(St. Michaels)

Back Three
Todd Lawlor(Newbridge)
Andre Ryan(Belvedere)
Ciaran Mangan(Newbridge)
Paidi Farrell(Tullamore RFC)

[mildlyinterested]

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/leinster-r ... r-2023-24/

Leinster confirm academy entrants

McCarthy x2, COT, Molony, Gunne, Cooney, Henry Mc and Osborne.

[paddyor]

Is there any word who isn't getting a contract or moving on? 4 promoted to senior deals so need 3/4 to make room for this lot.

[mildlyinterested]

Is there any word who isn't getting a contract or moving on? 4 promoted to senior deals so need 3/4 to make room for this lot.

Hanan, Smith, SOB, Comerford and O'Reilly all leaving.

Soroka, McKee, Russell moving up.

Might Prendergast move up early?

[mildlyinterested]

Prop
Temi Lasisi (22/Enniscorthy RFC/Lansdowne) - Year 3
Jack Boyle (21/St. Michaels/UCD) - Year 3
Rory McGuire (21/Blackrock College/UCD) - Year 2
Paddy McCarthy (20/Blackrock College/DUFC) - Year 1

Hooker
Lee Barron (22/St. Michaels/DUFC) - Year 3
Gus McCarthy (20/Blackrock/UCD) - Year 1

Lock
Conor O'Tighnearnaigh(20/St. Michaels/UCD) - Year 1

Backrow
James Culhane (20/Blackrock/UCD) - Year 2
Diarmuid Mangan (20/Newbridge/UCD) - Year 2
Liam Molony (19/Blackrock/DUFC) - Year 1

Scrumhalf
Ben Murphy (22/Pres Bray/Clontarf) - Year 3
Fintan Gunne (20/St. Michaels/Terenure) - Year 1

Outhalf
Charlie Tector (21/Kilkenny/Lansdowne) - Year 2
Sam Prendergast(20/Newbridge/Lansdowne) - Year 2

Centre
Ben Brownlee (20/Blackrock/UCD) - Year 2
Hugh Cooney (20/Blackrock/Clontarf) - Year 1

Back Three
Chris Cosgrave (22/St. Michaels/UCD) - Year 3
Aitzol King (21/Balbriggan RFC-CUS/Clontarf) - Year 2
Henry McErlean (20/St. Michaels/Terenure) - Year 1
Andrew Osborne (20/Naas RFC/Naas) - Year 1

[wixfjord]

That is a serious academy intake. Some raw talent in there.

[hugonaut]

That is a serious academy intake. Some raw talent in there.

Yes, it seems like a really good group. For one thing, excellent diversity across the positions: a prop, a hooker, a lock, a flanker, a scrum-half, a centre, a winger and a fullback. No doubling up, where giving one player a selection boost directly hurts the chances of the other payer.

Secondly, winning a Grand Slam – or two Grand Slam's in O'Tighearnaigh's case – seems to help players progress to the senior ranks. I think it gives the players confidence and it seems to generate a bit of energy and expectation around them from the coaches' point of view ... if the players are given a chance, they'll be confident rather than tentative about it.

Genuinely a bit surprised that Spicer isn't in there. He's a once in a generation physical specimen. But when you take O'Tighearnaigh's route into account, the bar is very, very high.

[mildlyinterested]

That is a serious academy intake. Some raw talent in there.

Yes, it seems like a really good group. For one thing, excellent diversity across the positions: a prop, a hooker, a lock, a flanker, a scrum-half, a centre, a winger and a fullback. No doubling up, where giving one player a selection boost directly hurts the chances of the other payer.

Secondly, winning a Grand Slam – or two Grand Slam's in O'Tighearnaigh's case – seems to help players progress to the senior ranks. I think it gives the players confidence and it seems to generate a bit of energy and expectation around them from the coaches' point of view ... if the players are given a chance, they'll be confident rather than tentative about it.

Genuinely a bit surprised that Spicer isn't in there. He's a once in a generation physical specimen. But when you take O'Tighearnaigh's route into account, the bar is very, very high.

Been awhile since anyone skipped the sub-academy and Spicer is still quite young only turning 19 next year.

Not to mention he missed out on irish schools due to injury.

I imagine he will be in next seasons class along with Andrew Sparrow, Hugo McLaughin and a few others.

[ronk]

Nice write up on the players: https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/05/03/ei ... r-academy/

8 is a big class but it seems justified by the talent and seems to match the number leaving the academy.

Hugely exciting group of players.