Leinster v Bulls Friday RDS 19:35 TG4

[munster#1]

Hi all.

I won’t go into details with my opinion on the game because it won’t be welcomed by some, and will ruin the thread.

However I will commiserate with you all.
Unfortunately I know all too well what you are going through, but that is the joy of sport.

The last few seasons have shown where Leinster have deficiencies. The list of deficiencies is a lot smaller than other teams and very fixable imo.
With the introduction of the SA teams to the URC and the HC, and the fact that they are strengthening their teams for next season, means that other teams must up their games.
Failure to perform a complete evaluation will mean that the gap will only increase next season.

Agreed the SA teams have definitely stopped the procession like nature of the Pro 14 and provides a new challenge now going forward for all the Irish provinces and can only improve standards. That is very clear !!

Trophies are definitely going to be harder to come by.

By all means do post your views on the game, don't imagine it is anything too 'controversial' and jeepers we are all probably thinking the same thing !! In the cold light of day my own feeling is the camp assumed this would be a win, the Glasgow match was a total farce which was the worst possible prep and a level of arrogance in not starting Sexton was a major mistake. Why we made so many mistakes is harder to put the finger on but that can often happen when things don't immediately go the way you want and you have to chase a game. Leinster's season has very few examples of adversity or chasing games (so many including qtr and semi finals in the HEC were blown away in the first half) that the mindset needed to 'dog out' a game isn't always something you can turn on if it isn't regularly practiced. It is a hard balance. But we have young players the likes of Sheehan McCarthy etc who will learn so much from this we have a bright future.

We could do with a couple of key players coming through in the pack or imports , we are close but just need a sprinkling of bulk and nouse. We I feel were one Hines or Thorn away from two trophies this year.....

Firstly, this is me as a Munster fan fully aware that Leinster are a better outfit than Munster, and is in no way me putting the boot in.

You have basically said most of what I would have said.
I think the non selection of Sexton in the starting team shows that mentally Leinster like most others must have thought that the game was a formality, and with the benefit of hindsight, this was a big error.

Leinster have failed to develop FB backup, and rely heavily on Keenan, who I’m assuming was injured?

Some have already said it, but I don’t think it was necessarily just that the Bulls had more power than Leinster, but they, like Munster, tried to match the Bulls in an area where they couldn’t, rather than trying to play the Leinster way.
Leinster have many strengths, but they have shown time and again that when they play big powerful teams that they try to match the power rather than looking to negate it by playing a faster and wider game.

I think Leinster were unfortunate, or poorly coached in terms of timing of peaking.
Dorris, Conan and Ryan are great players, but they seem to have really went off the boil over the last 2 months, with Ryan and Conan looking like shadows of themselves.
When you play a team like LaR and Bulls, if 3 of you back 5 forwards are misfiring, then the result is almost inevitable.

From a very amateurish point of view, from the outside looking in, Leinster need to look at the mental side of the game, and try to establish why they keep falling at the last hurdle.

They need to either look to sign bigger players, or imo they should look to play to their strengths.
Evaluate their largely international standard squad and come up with a game plan that suits the team.

Positions where I believe Leinster need to strengthen:
Reserve LH
Reserve TH (Alalatoa is a good player but you are Furlong injury away from disaster)
Blindside - I would love to see Baird put on a few KG and play there for Leinster and Ireland as a 5.5.
8 - Dorris needs to be given the 8 shirt, imo he is wasted at 6.

Looking past next season Leinster could be in trouble at 10 unless Harry fulfills his promise.

[bails]

I dont think we were outmuscled last night, but I think there were a number of areas where we had difficulties, and dont appear to be able to deal with.

1. Bulls were very physical in defense, and agressively put us under pressure. This defence type has traditionally being one we have struggled with. It took 60 mins, and Sexton's introduction before we started chipping in behind their defensive line, whi worked a number of times.

2. The Bulls appeared to be far more streetwise tham we were. They entered rucks from the side, took players out well beyond the ruck and lived offaide. But more importantly they got away with it, managed the referee better and appeared far better equipped in the street fight. We keep saying it but we need a dog in the pack, someone who will live on the edge and make sure we wont let ourselves be bullied again.

3. We didn't deal with the Bulls kicking game well at all. Our kick return was very poor. In the first half they kicked long up the middle 4 times, none of which we managed to return to their half. For example, on one occasion we kicked directly to touch from just outside our 22, on two occasions we knocked on attempting to run it back, and the other occasion we conceded a penalty at ruck deep in our half.

4. We made am inordinate number of handling errors. I appreciate the ball may have been slippery, but the opposition managed to hold on for long periods, at varying times during the game.

In summary, we appeared weaker mentally than the Bulls
We were taught a lesson in the dark arts at ruck and maul, and particularly in how to get away with it. I suppose more worryingly both La Rochelle and Saracens have done this to us previously in big semi final and finals, and we havent learnt jow to mamage it yet!

[cormac]

We lost that game purely and simply because our lineout was appalling. Can only remember us winning three clean lineouts and we scored off two of them.

[LeinsterLeader]

We lost that game purely and simply because our lineout was appalling. Can only remember us winning three clean lineouts and we scored off two of them.

I think to say our lineout was appalling, you have to give huge credit to the Blues there. They took a risk and put a huge amount of bodies into the air. Some of it was us defo (eg could our disguise been better?) but they definitely went after us there.

For me the losing of the game was simply this ......... we dropped the ball, literally! I counted 5 occasions where players dropped a pass or a ball that was kicked to them when there was nobody near them. I remember each incident like a punch in the stomach as on each occasion we were just turning up the pressure when the valve was released.

So while there's plenty of merit to the Power argument and the scrum argument etc., purely in the context of last nights game, if we don't drop them 5 balls, I think we win the game.

As I've said, small margin!

[Dexter]

LL I don’t think that’s true tbh, even when we annihilate teams there’s still lots of criticism.

Just one thought I’m going to throw out there that could potentially improve things and have nothing to do with power. Should we be looking at bringing in a new coach with particular expertise on the maul/lineout? No disrespect to Leo but I think a new set of eyes would be good and given that Leo keeps signing one year deals it might be prudent to have someone else there helping in that area anyway for when he eventually leaves.

One more thing, a captain who’s there week in week out a la Isa and is used to making decisions or can speak up to someone like Sexton or Ryan in big games might be good. There’s no obvious candidate though tbf.

I think they're good suggestions LRIP and I think your on the right lines in relation to smaller changes like that rather then having to look at changing our rugby style. We were close this year, dam close and I don't think it's time to tear up the script and start again (maybe ultimately it will come to that).

I'd rather we tried to adjust what we do now, like you have suggested above. I like the way we play, I enjoy watching us. I thought the Bulls were brilliant last night, hard and Cynical, real pantomime villain's but awesome with their power ......but I wouldn't like to support them. There's plenty to admire in what they do but there's little excitement. Right now I feel that If we have to become the bulls etc to become successful (or go that route) I don't think I'd bother. A big statement I know but that's how I feel right now. Others feel power is the only way as that's the way the game is going and we have to keep up with the times. Maybe they're right but I hope not. As long as there's a chance buy adjusting what we do we can at some point overcome the big powerful teams on a regular basis, then I'm happy to go through nights light Marseille and last night.

Totally agree with your point on not wanting to support a team with that playing style.
It's an accepted part of the game that if you're technically illegal but get away it then all's fair, but it's very frustrating to see cynicism thrive and be a big part of trophy winning teams, for me anyway. I love the way Leinster play and we were damn close this season playing that way.

[Dave Cahill]

We lost that game purely and simply because our lineout was appalling. Can only remember us winning three clean lineouts and we scored off two of them.

Hard to argue with that - our line out has been pretty mediocre all season and whilst you can get away with it against the lesser teams, once you get to the business end its going to come back on you. Its the 7th ranked lineout, with an 88% success rate, in the competition.

think to say our lineout was appalling, you have to give huge credit to the Blues there. They took a risk and put a huge amount of bodies into the air. Some of it was us defo (eg could our disguise been better?) but they definitely went after us there.

Thats true too, they did indeed go after us there, but they chose to do so because they identified it as a weakness

[Blue Man]

We’re not a bad team but aren’t as good as the hype. However, we can become the best side in Europe. Age profile is positive, work ethic seems strong, coaching ticket is good and conveyor belt is strong.

I don’t think we were out muscled yesterday although the scrum struggled towards the end and they shaded the collisions.

The fact is that we lost the game due to a malfunctioning lineout.

The performance overall was poor, punctuated by skills lapses, bad decision making and cheap turnovers. But the momentum was with us when Johnny came on and we would have won if we secured our lineout ball.

The Saffas are a great addition to the league and Irish rugby will really benefit from tough physical matches. Hopefully the format will settle down post COVID and we get to see more close matches where our players (skills, physicality, resolve, decision making and concentration) are challenged on a more regular basis.

Well done to the Bulls and I look forward to facing them next year

[wixfjord]

For me the losing of the game was simply this ......... we dropped the ball, literally! I counted 5 occasions where players dropped a pass or a ball that was kicked to them when there was nobody near them. I remember each incident like a punch in the stomach as on each occasion we were just turning up the pressure when the valve was released.

So while there's plenty of merit to the Power argument and the scrum argument etc., purely in the context of last nights game, if we don't drop them 5 balls, I think we win the game.

As I've said, small margin!

I think you can say this about the Marseille game too, and a lot of the games we've lost that have been put down to 'power deficit' over the last few years.

In Marseille it wasn't the lineout, it was our some big errors in key moments of the game like JOB's knee, Keenan/Sexton's mess up and some other smaller errors like knock ons.

Clearly having a more 'powerful' team makes everything else easier, but that doesn't mean the reason we're losing is 'power'.

Bulls haven't got anywhere near the freak athletes that Atonio/Skelton are, but because we're so used now to just blaming everything on 'oh we haven't gotten a 22 stone brute of a second row' then it just becomes the default narrative imo.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I might be missing something but it seems to me that the chat is pretty nuanced and there’s very little in regard to power being the only issue and nobody mentioning it is going over the top about it.

I mean if we’d just had Kelleher fit and then a loosehead we trusted more than Healy then that might have got us over the line. That doesn’t require anything major.

I’d be curious if people dismissing the power element could talk through what the Bulls did to dominate us? Or what the difference between beating most teams but struggling against Saracens, La Rochelle, and the Bulls is? Bar contesting our lineout it looked like they dominated physically. It wasn’t the only thing but it was certainly a part of it.

As always there wasn’t just one issue anyway so focusing on one thing is a fool’s game.

One last thing, weight does not equal power. Just a quick example, Ronan Kelleher and Herring are listed as roughly the same weight. Who would you rather be tackled by? Who would you rather try and run over? Who would you rather try and shift off a ball on the deck? If you did all three things against both players then who will fatigue you more and maybe lead to you making errors as a result?

[Oldschoolsocks]

I might be missing something but it seems to me that the chat is pretty nuanced and there’s very little in regard to power being the only issue and nobody mentioning it is going over the top about it.

I mean if we’d just had Kelleher fit and then a loosehead we trusted more than Healy then that might have got us over the line. That doesn’t require anything major.

I’d be curious if people dismissing the power element could talk through what the Bulls did to dominate us? Or what the difference between beating most teams but struggling against Saracens, La Rochelle, and the Bulls is? Bar contesting our lineout it looked like they dominated physically. It wasn’t the only thing but it was certainly a part of it.

As always there wasn’t just one issue anyway so focusing on one thing is a fool’s game.

One last thing, weight does not equal power. Just a quick example, Ronan Kelleher and Herring are listed as roughly the same weight. Who would you rather be tackled by? Who would you rather try and run over? Who would you rather try and shift off a ball on the deck? If you did all three things against both players then who will fatigue you more and maybe lead to you making errors as a result?

I could be way off here, but I think there is a definite correlation between us not getting our quick ruck ball and the perception that it was power that beat us in the end. I can’t remember who posted that he wanted to see us with three in the ruck, but I think that was actually pretty on the nail.

And tbh one thing the defeat by La Rochelle reminded me of most is the last time Northampton beat us in Lansdowne, they just slowed the game right down to allow their bigger units to catch their breath at regular intervals.

So I think while we lost the game in the lineout, we actually failed to win it at the ruck - if that makes sense?

[wixfjord]

I might be missing something but it seems to me that the chat is pretty nuanced and there’s very little in regard to power being the only issue and nobody mentioning it is going over the top about it.

I mean if we’d just had Kelleher fit and then a loosehead we trusted more than Healy then that might have got us over the line. That doesn’t require anything major.

I’d be curious if people dismissing the power element could talk through what the Bulls did to dominate us? Or what the difference between beating most teams but struggling against Saracens, La Rochelle, and the Bulls is? Bar contesting our lineout it looked like they dominated physically. It wasn’t the only thing but it was certainly a part of it.

As always there wasn’t just one issue anyway so focusing on one thing is a fool’s game.

One last thing, weight does not equal power. Just a quick example, Ronan Kelleher and Herring are listed as roughly the same weight. Who would you rather be tackled by? Who would you rather try and run over? Who would you rather try and shift off a ball on the deck? If you did all three things against both players then who will fatigue you more and maybe lead to you making errors as a result?

Couple of points there LRIP (not sure why you didn't quote me since you're responding to me right?).

There have been quite a few posts post game, as there was post Marseille, pinpointing 'power' as a key reason we lost. You did it yourself right?

I'm not saying we require a major change at all. In fact I'm saying that small tweaks to other parts of the game would've gotten us over the line in both games.

I don't think Bulls dominated us at all, or that they 'dominated physically'. Why do you think they did?

We had 48% posession, 70% territory, made double the clean breaks, metres run, defenders beaten that they did. The big issue wasn't being physically dominated at all. It was a totally malfunctioning lineout and some really poor handling errors from the likes of JOB, Henshaw, McCarthy and Doris.

Nothing at all to do with 'power'.

I totally agree that focusing on one thing is a fool's game, that's exactly what I'm saying above. Talking about 'power' is way too simplistic.

I also agree that weight =/= power. In fact if you look at the starting packs then I'd us as having clearly more 'powerful' players, bar perhaps Coetzee.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Yeah I preferred to just post passively aggressively as I have been doing since I called out your harsh posts about Luke McGrath. More enjoyable that way.

[wixfjord]

Yeah I preferred to just post passively aggressively as I have been doing since I called out your harsh posts about Luke McGrath. More enjoyable that way.

Haha fair enough!

[hugonaut]

We lost that game purely and simply because our lineout was appalling. Can only remember us winning three clean lineouts and we scored off two of them.

Just rewatched it on the TG4 player and you are not wrong.

27:25, 62:15, 63:55 - three pennos to 5m lineouts which we lost cleanly. That is going to hurt you in any game.

[Joeman]

Having watched both URC semi finals and premiership semi finals also this weekend I would dearly like to know what the success rate was for teams electing to kick to the corner versus taking the 3 pts on offer.

Given this has been subject of debate in our 2 end of season losses where we adopted differing approaches the above would be an interesting number. I'm very much in the take the 3pts camp (only reason we were in game in Marseille with 90 secs left). I would be amazed if the success rate over the 4 semi finals was more than 15-20%.

Of course teams behind by more than 3pts with only minutes on the board have little choice but to go for broke! Still a bird in the hand.......

[Joeman]

Can I add 1 more note in relation to last night's game.

Did anyone else pick up on the graciousness of the Bulls players who took the time to meet with and accept the congrats of Leinster supporters along the grandstand? In my many years attending RDS games I've never seen an opposition side take the time to mingle with fans and in particular chat with kids.

I know what team I'll be cheering for next Saturday!

[paddyor]

LL I don’t think that’s true tbh, even when we annihilate teams there’s still lots of criticism.

Just one thought I’m going to throw out there that could potentially improve things and have nothing to do with power. Should we be looking at bringing in a new coach with particular expertise on the maul/lineout? No disrespect to Leo but I think a new set of eyes would be good and given that Leo keeps signing one year deals it might be prudent to have someone else there helping in that area anyway for when he eventually leaves.

One more thing, a captain who’s there week in week out a la Isa and is used to making decisions or can speak up to someone like Sexton or Ryan in big games might be good. There’s no obvious candidate though tbf.

Molony Shirley? He won’t be making many Irish teams, even if he makes the squads imo.

[paddyor]

We lost that game purely and simply because our lineout was appalling. Can only remember us winning three clean lineouts and we scored off two of them.

Just rewatched it on the TG4 player and you are not wrong.

27:25, 62:15, 63:55 - three pennos to 5m lineouts which we lost cleanly. That is going to hurt you in any game.

On top of that there was scramble balls and knock ons or poor clearance from the improvised attack after. Stats say 79% but it felt more like 60%

[munster#1]

Interesting that Leo has confirmed that the result could be due to poor mental preparation of the team.
At this level it is crazy to think that a team wouldn’t be mentally prepared for a Semi final especially from a team as remarkable as Leinster.

From the Indo:

The head coach suggested that a combination of their one-sided opening night win over the same opposition and last week's 12-try hammering of Glasgow softened his team's mindset for this game as they produced an untypically inaccurate and ill-disciplined performance under huge pressure from a well-coached South African side.

[desperado]

Having watched both URC semi finals and premiership semi finals also this weekend I would dearly like to know what the success rate was for teams electing to kick to the corner versus taking the 3 pts on offer.

Given this has been subject of debate in our 2 end of season losses where we adopted differing approaches the above would be an interesting number. I'm very much in the take the 3pts camp (only reason we were in game in Marseille with 90 secs left). I would be amazed if the success rate over the 4 semi finals was more than 15-20%.

Of course teams behind by more than 3pts with only minutes on the board have little choice but to go for broke! Still a bird in the hand.......

Vs LAR, where our lineout and maul were going well we took our 3 pointers; v Bulls when our lineout was misfiring we did the opposite - when possibly we should have kicked for goal.