Leinster v Munster, URC Final Round, Sat. 21st May, 7:15pm, Aviva

[RoboProp]

What is our win/loss ratio with Munster since the Semi-final in 2009? I can't say with any certainty but I would think Connacht and Ulster would have more victories over us in this timeframe

[mildlyinterested]

What is our win/loss ratio with Munster since the Semi-final in 2009? I can't say with any certainty but I would think Connacht and Ulster would have more victories over us in this timeframe

32 games played since 2009 semi final, Munster have won 7 of them.

[Colmodon]

When we beat them in 2009, the record stood at Munster 36 Leinster 34.

It is now Leinster 58 Munster 44* (including the rainbow cup)

[blockhead]

When we beat them in 2009, the record stood at Munster 36 Leinster 34.

It is now Leinster 58 Munster 44* (including the rainbow cup)

The Rainbow wha? That's not a real thing.

[Flash Gordon]

Delighted to see Deegan & Penny stand up last night.

Their compatriots in the red backrow have been grabbing a lot of headlines, so good to see the time honoured tradition of much vaunted Munster backrows being handed their ass against us.

Absolutely. I'll go so far as to have a mini-rant on the subject!

O'Mahony [in fairness to him] is playing the best rugby of his career at the moment, but every time he plays well for Ireland there's this massive surge of offended Munster fans – including the knowledgable ones like Murray Kinsella and Gavin Casey – who go on [and they do go on] about how they can't understand how anybody can criticise O'Mahony.

It's just a different opinion from a different perspective. O'Mahony is not a player who has ever caused us that much trouble. We play these lads all the time, at least twice a season and generally more often, and time after time after time Munster backrows are talked up heading into the match and then get shut down or simply don't do anything that good.

For example, Conan used to routinely outplay Stander: I remember posting the stats here before for the three seasons from the 2016-17 season through to 2018-19 season when they went head to head six times
Conan: 4 CB, 15 DBs, 185m off 76 carries for 2.43m/carry
Stander: 0 CB, 9 DB, 96m off 100 carries for 0.96m/carry

And Stander was a guy who always put himself in the line of fire. Even if he was getting shut down, he'd always keep offering himself up.

I don't have any animus whatsoever against Hodnett or Kendellen, but I've heard or read quite a lot of opinions calling for one or the other of them to go to New Zealand. Ahead of Scott Penny. Are you serious?

If you went to imagine a combined team of Munster and Leinster (not that hard as it comes up for international selection) then there would be 2/3 Munster players with a really good case. De Allende is a hard call. Beirne and Conway would be the others, but they're both ex-Leinster.

A lot was made about how Leinster rested most of the Heineken Cup 23 but look at an example like Loughman. He was cut (or due to be cut) with Ed Byrne and Dooley well ahead of him. He's done well but not enough that anyone thinks Leinster made the wrong call. Cronin is 3/4th choice hooker for Leinster but he's an aging legend with a few good games Inthe tank and a point to prove, same with Toner. On form Larmour and Baird are rockstars, Harry Byrne is more than capable of outplaying Carbery and Healy. Frawley and Osbourne is a better centre pairing than Goggin and Farrell, especially playing an open game.

Munster might well have been the better side if they'd been able to make the rookies look like rookies (as they did for the Rainbow Cup last year, but here Foley scored a try and was a revelation rather than getting an easy sin bin and barely being involved), the retiring hero's look past it, the returning stars look unfit etc.

The problem Munster have had since the 2000's is the way they develop players. It took us years to build our development system and it will take other clubs years to do the same. Part of that system is giving development players game time. Papering over cracks with imports from Leinster or abroad is masking the issue and in many cases it blocks talent coming through. What's more it impacts the club culturally - the 99 Ulster team and the Munster team from the 2000's ran on culture, I'm not sure I could define what they stand for now.

Secondly, they are a really poorly coached team. Our guys played exactly the same game plan that our first choice team play. The entire club trains it and plays it. When Munster got the ball to their backs they looked directionless and they don't have the pack to play a physical/attritional game.

Thirdly, they need to be honest about where they are and address it even if it takes time. It might take years to develop the players - though that might happen quicker if they got game time. The introduction of Casey, who is an excellent player just a few minutes before the end was a case in point. A lot of their issues started with the pace of distribution from the ruck, we had loads of time to set our defensive systems. So even then they didn't play the kid.

Ultimately we played a second/third string team and at times they made mistakes - we gifted them at least 3 scores. So our 2nd/3rds come away having won the game and knowing that they had work ons to get even better. Great for us obviously but extremely concerning for Munster.

[leinsterforever]

Cormac Foley did really, really well. Just rewatching it here and he had a good, reliable game across his time on the pitch, highlighted by the two big moments – his try and his outstanding 50-22 kick.

He has improved so much in the space of a year. He's got better at every facet of his job and on the basis of that performance, he's got a professional career ahead of him for Leinster. Wasn't sure that was going to be the path for him before the weekend's game.

I thought that Harry [quietly] had a good game. A lot of people were looking for him to try and do less [I wasn't one of them!] and either that performance was an outlier, or the people who run the team were thinking the same thing, told him how to make it happen, and he listened to them.

It seems to me that the contrasting fortunes of Foley and Hugh O'Sullivan is compelling evidence for the benefits of academy scrumhalves getting significant gametime in the AIL. It's like the scrumhalf equivalent of back three players going off to play 7s. Getting a lot of possessions in match situations can be beneficial for skills, decision making and, ultimately, confidence.

[Colmodon]

The introduction of Casey, who is an excellent player just a few minutes before the end was a case in point. A lot of their issues started with the pace of distribution from the ruck, we had loads of time to set our defensive systems. So even then they didn't play the kid.

Casey didn't play at all, it was Patterson that came off the bench. Casey was sick and dropped out before kick off

[Flash Gordon]

The introduction of Casey, who is an excellent player just a few minutes before the end was a case in point. A lot of their issues started with the pace of distribution from the ruck, we had loads of time to set our defensive systems. So even then they didn't play the kid.

Casey didn't play at all, it was Patterson that came off the bench. Casey was sick and dropped out before kick off

Ah ok, that would explain it, my bad. Point still stands though, Murray has just got a central, Casey plays a game that would make Carbery's job easier and works within the Ireland system, will he play with a big money central contract player in front of him? Player development is a problem for them, looking at other positions like, say, centre, they're produced nothing for years.

[the spoofer]

The introduction of Casey, who is an excellent player just a few minutes before the end was a case in point. A lot of their issues started with the pace of distribution from the ruck, we had loads of time to set our defensive systems. So even then they didn't play the kid.

Casey didn't play at all, it was Patterson that came off the bench. Casey was sick and dropped out before kick off

Ah ok, that would explain it, my bad. Point still stands though, Murray has just got a central, Casey plays a game that would make Carbery's job easier and works within the Ireland system, will he play with a big money central contract player in front of him? Player development is a problem for them, looking at other positions like, say, centre, they're produced nothing for years.

You could take the best bits of Colin Patterson, John Robbie and Robbie McGrath, combine them into a super 9 and you still wouldn't make Joey Carbury look like a top class 10.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Cormac Foley did really, really well. Just rewatching it here and he had a good, reliable game across his time on the pitch, highlighted by the two big moments – his try and his outstanding 50-22 kick.

He has improved so much in the space of a year. He's got better at every facet of his job and on the basis of that performance, he's got a professional career ahead of him for Leinster. Wasn't sure that was going to be the path for him before the weekend's game.

I thought that Harry [quietly] had a good game. A lot of people were looking for him to try and do less [I wasn't one of them!] and either that performance was an outlier, or the people who run the team were thinking the same thing, told him how to make it happen, and he listened to them.

I know Murray slipped away from him and he couldn’t stop JOD for the tries but I really liked Foley’s defence. He was really hungry for it and his tackle on Earls in particular was very well done.

[riocard911]

I agree with Hugonaut, that Harry had a good game. Before the match I was intrigued to see which of the two pretenders to J10's crown would come out on top and it was Harry by some distance.

Rewatching the match I had the impression that Murray at this stage is phoning it in, just going through the motions. The look from his eyes, his whole demeanour spoke of boredom and tiredness. He's a mere shadow of the spritely player, who got MOTM in the NZ match in Chicago in 2016. The thought that he might be blocking one or other of our upcoming scrum halves such as Casey or Doak from.going to NZ this summer, playing in the AI's, the 2023 Six Nations as well as the RWC in France, because Nucifora unwisely, IMO, extended his national contract, irritates me intensely.

[Flash Gordon]

Casey didn't play at all, it was Patterson that came off the bench. Casey was sick and dropped out before kick off

Ah ok, that would explain it, my bad. Point still stands though, Murray has just got a central, Casey plays a game that would make Carbery's job easier and works within the Ireland system, will he play with a big money central contract player in front of him? Player development is a problem for them, looking at other positions like, say, centre, they're produced nothing for years.

You could take the best bits of Colin Patterson, John Robbie and Robbie McGrath, combine them into a super 9 and you still wouldn't make Joey Carbury look like a top class 10.

I'm hearing a bit of noise from Munster that they are beginning to agree that Joey is best placed at fullback. He may not be a world class player but he's a good player and he's currently next in line to Sexton. Think it's pretty clear that him moving out of the Leinster coaching environment to a poor coaching set up was a big mistake. Look ata guy like De Allende, he's a world class centre who looks distinctly average when he plays the Munster game plan.

[the spoofer]

Ah ok, that would explain it, my bad. Point still stands though, Murray has just got a central, Casey plays a game that would make Carbery's job easier and works within the Ireland system, will he play with a big money central contract player in front of him? Player development is a problem for them, looking at other positions like, say, centre, they're produced nothing for years.

You could take the best bits of Colin Patterson, John Robbie and Robbie McGrath, combine them into a super 9 and you still wouldn't make Joey Carbury look like a top class 10.

I'm hearing a bit of noise from Munster that they are beginning to agree that Joey is best placed at fullback. He may not be a world class player but he's a good player and he's currently next in line to Sexton. Think it's pretty clear that him moving out of the Leinster coaching environment to a poor coaching set up was a big mistake. Look ata guy like De Allende, he's a world class centre who looks distinctly average when he plays the Munster game plan.

Carbery may be regarded as second to Sexton but he should not be. Ross Byrne is streets ahead of him in game management.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I agree with Hugonaut, that Harry had a good game. Before the match I was intrigued to see which of the two pretenders to J10's crown would come out on top and it was Harry by some distance.

Rewatching the match I had the impression that Murray at this stage is phoning it in, just going through the motions. The look from his eyes, his whole demeanour spoke of boredom and tiredness. He's a mere shadow of the spritely player, who got MOTM in the NZ match in Chicago in 2016. The thought that he might be blocking one or other of our upcoming scrum halves such as Casey or Doak from.going to NZ this summer, playing in the AI's, the 2023 Six Nations as well as the RWC in France, because Nucifora unwisely, IMO, extended his national contract, irritates me intensely.

Murray gets done a lot in defence these days, seems like he can’t move his feet like he used to. Fair enough Larmour is electric and looked incredibly sharp on Saturday but for the break Larmour made near halfway he got past Murray as if he was a front rower.

Maybe Casey was struggling during the week but it was such a strange game to plump for Murray IMO. It seemed perfectly set up to go with Casey and build on the quick tempo game they’d played more of in the last few weeks and see if Casey would be a better option to start in the knock out game. Murray had played reasonably well recently but it still seemed like an open goal to go for Casey.

[SoupyNorman]

Casey wasn't deemed fit to play at all. Struck down with an illness.

[Flash Gordon]

A word on our wingers. Jordan made 217 meters, I don't think I've ever seen that before. Seriously put his hand up for next weekend. Also watching Adam Byrne glide across the pitch and what he gives us in the air really made me think that letting him go is a mistake. I know he's had a torrid time with injuries but the lad is absolutely superb when fit.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Casey wasn't deemed fit to play at all. Struck down with an illness.

I know but I’m saying that was only relevant if he was sick during the week as opposed to after the team was picked. If he was fine before the team was picked then he should have been down to start IMO.

[Flash Gordon]

Casey wasn't deemed fit to play at all. Struck down with an illness.

I know but I’m saying that was only relevant if he was sick during the week as opposed to after the team was picked. If he was fine before the team was picked then he should have been down to start IMO.

The issue beyond the game we played at the weekend is that a scrum half with fading powers in on a central contract. From Casey's point of view Connacht have 2 very good scrum halves, JGP is Ireland's first choice, Doak looks like the real deal and who knows, Foley may emerge. I think Casey might be a better prospect but will he play?

[Oldschool]

I agree with Hugonaut, that Harry had a good game. Before the match I was intrigued to see which of the two pretenders to J10's crown would come out on top and it was Harry by some distance.

Rewatching the match I had the impression that Murray at this stage is phoning it in, just going through the motions. The look from his eyes, his whole demeanour spoke of boredom and tiredness. He's a mere shadow of the spritely player, who got MOTM in the NZ match in Chicago in 2016. The thought that he might be blocking one or other of our upcoming scrum halves such as Casey or Doak from.going to NZ this summer, playing in the AI's, the 2023 Six Nations as well as the RWC in France, because Nucifora unwisely, IMO, extended his national contract, irritates me intensely.

Do we need a pre-retirement contract for the likes of Murray.
Most of the bells and whistles of a central contract without the guarantee of selection and the bonuses that go with selection.

[Long time lurker]

Murray has been bang average for years. A total waste of a central contract. A good effort from Foley. I'm hoping there's an upward trajectory from him. It would be great if he can force his way into the panel versus the domestic league sides.