Flash Gordon wrote:A word on our wingers. Jordan made 217 meters, I don't think I've ever seen that before. Seriously put his hand up for next weekend. Also watching Adam Byrne glide across the pitch and what he gives us in the air really made me think that letting him go is a mistake. I know he's had a torrid time with injuries but the lad is absolutely superb when fit.
Jordan played fullback ,not on the wing,so it is easier to make those type of numbers with that amount of room.
It was brilliant to see him in that type of form before the end of the year.
riocard911 wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 10:25 am
I agree with Hugonaut, that Harry had a good game. Before the match I was intrigued to see which of the two pretenders to J10's crown would come out on top and it was Harry by some distance.
Rewatching the match I had the impression that Murray at this stage is phoning it in, just going through the motions. The look from his eyes, his whole demeanour spoke of boredom and tiredness. He's a mere shadow of the spritely player, who got MOTM in the NZ match in Chicago in 2016. The thought that he might be blocking one or other of our upcoming scrum halves such as Casey or Doak from.going to NZ this summer, playing in the AI's, the 2023 Six Nations as well as the RWC in France, because Nucifora unwisely, IMO, extended his national contract, irritates me intensely.
Murray gets done a lot in defence these days, seems like he can’t move his feet like he used to. Fair enough Larmour is electric and looked incredibly sharp on Saturday but for the break Larmour made near halfway he got past Murray as if he was a front rower.
Maybe Casey was struggling during the week but it was such a strange game to plump for Murray IMO. It seemed perfectly set up to go with Casey and build on the quick tempo game they’d played more of in the last few weeks and see if Casey would be a better option to start in the knock out game. Murray had played reasonably well recently but it still seemed like an open goal to go for Casey.
I haven't previously held a candle for Murray since 2018 but his performance against Toulouse needs mentioned. Granted, he may not be able to replicate that tempo and quality from week to week, but that performance was right up there with what you'd expect from an Irish Squad player.
Munster pack assumed they would have dominance on Saturday and got none, particularly at maul and breakdowns. That should be the first factor of analysis in the assessment of any scrum-half. Foley looked and played better than expected because the Leinster 'donkeys' played like Lions.
Flash Gordon wrote:A word on our wingers. Jordan made 217 meters, I don't think I've ever seen that before. Seriously put his hand up for next weekend. Also watching Adam Byrne glide across the pitch and what he gives us in the air really made me think that letting him go is a mistake. I know he's had a torrid time with injuries but the lad is absolutely superb when fit.
Jordan played fullback ,not on the wing,so it is easier to make those type of numbers with that amount of room.
It was brilliant to see him in that type of form before the end of the year.
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Yes I know, Hugo is nailed on at 15 for the foreseeable and ultimately Jordan can't grow and he's small for a fullback! He made over 100meters vs Monpellier I think and only played one half at wing - again an odd game I know. With ball in hand the lad can produce miracles in tight spaces.
Flash Gordon wrote:A word on our wingers. Jordan made 217 meters, I don't think I've ever seen that before. Seriously put his hand up for next weekend. Also watching Adam Byrne glide across the pitch and what he gives us in the air really made me think that letting him go is a mistake. I know he's had a torrid time with injuries but the lad is absolutely superb when fit.
Jordan played fullback ,not on the wing,so it is easier to make those type of numbers with that amount of room.
It was brilliant to see him in that type of form before the end of the year.
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Yes I know, Hugo is nailed on at 15 for the foreseeable and ultimately Jordan can't grow and he's small for a fullback! He made over 100meters vs Monpellier I think and only played one half at wing - again an odd game I know. With ball in hand the lad can produce miracles in tight spaces.
On the basis of how open he leaves us vs high ball strategies I wouldn’t switch jimmy for him either. Leicester pummelled us with high balls trying to do a sarries on us and that fact all of our back three were imperious under them meant we never batted an eyelid. On the switch side the only way Munster got around us on Saturday night was with the high ball until Adam Byrne came on
Donal Lenihan on Against The Head laying into the Munster slogans "The brave and rhe faithful, nothing impossible " "Stand up and Fight" nonsense is food for my soul.
Am I the only one who thought Murray looked good on Saturday? He’s never been a pacey kind of 9 but I thought he was pretty sharp overall. He was operating in a Munster side that simply weren’t delivering. Some of the stuff was strange. Numerous times they had 5 men securing a ruck that Leinster weren’t competing for. Their shape was terrible. Carbery wasn’t controlling anything and Goggin was incredibly poor. Their front 5 were fairly anonymous as an attacking force (Ahern may be an exception there). There was so little front foot ball for Murray to play off and so few good options for him to play to. I felt he did what he could, but was never going to look great in that set-up.
The mad thing about the game was that a couple of times Munster played unstructured off turnover and looked good. They just couldn’t create that in phase play at all. They struggled to get past second phase, and even at times struggled on second phase. Some of it was shocking stuff. So it looked as though the skill set was there to a point but when it came to their structure, they just couldn’t get it right. Whether that’s the players or the coaches I don’t know. Probably a mix of the two.
molloyjh wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 9:57 am
Am I the only one who thought Murray looked good on Saturday? He’s never been a pacey kind of 9 but I thought he was pretty sharp overall. He was operating in a Munster side that simply weren’t delivering. Some of the stuff was strange. Numerous times they had 5 men securing a ruck that Leinster weren’t competing for. Their shape was terrible. Carbery wasn’t controlling anything and Goggin was incredibly poor. Their front 5 were fairly anonymous as an attacking force (Ahern may be an exception there). There was so little front foot ball for Murray to play off and so few good options for him to play to. I felt he did what he could, but was never going to look great in that set-up.
The mad thing about the game was that a couple of times Munster played unstructured off turnover and looked good. They just couldn’t create that in phase play at all. They struggled to get past second phase, and even at times struggled on second phase. Some of it was shocking stuff. So it looked as though the skill set was there to a point but when it came to their structure, they just couldn’t get it right. Whether that’s the players or the coaches I don’t know. Probably a mix of the two.
It's a common problem when you start to change the system. It takes a while to get it right. Some parts will look better fast, but against a defence that knows how to play that way they will be a step ahead.
Leinster 2nds train against a well executed version of that.
I thought Murray played okay but he's a senior player who should be able to dictate the structure better.
molloyjh wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 9:57 am
Am I the only one who thought Murray looked good on Saturday? He’s never been a pacey kind of 9 but I thought he was pretty sharp overall. He was operating in a Munster side that simply weren’t delivering. Some of the stuff was strange. Numerous times they had 5 men securing a ruck that Leinster weren’t competing for. Their shape was terrible. Carbery wasn’t controlling anything and Goggin was incredibly poor. Their front 5 were fairly anonymous as an attacking force (Ahern may be an exception there). There was so little front foot ball for Murray to play off and so few good options for him to play to. I felt he did what he could, but was never going to look great in that set-up.
The mad thing about the game was that a couple of times Munster played unstructured off turnover and looked good. They just couldn’t create that in phase play at all. They struggled to get past second phase, and even at times struggled on second phase. Some of it was shocking stuff. So it looked as though the skill set was there to a point but when it came to their structure, they just couldn’t get it right. Whether that’s the players or the coaches I don’t know. Probably a mix of the two.
Being honest, they looked about 3 to 6 months away from hearing a big CLICK, and then they’ll be good again…
ronk wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 10:15 am
It's a common problem when you start to change the system. It takes a while to get it right. Some parts will look better fast, but against a defence that knows how to play that way they will be a step ahead.
Leinster 2nds train against a well executed version of that.
I thought Murray played okay but he's a senior player who should be able to dictate the structure better.
Maybe, but I’d expect guys further out to be doing that. At 10, 12 and/or 15 mainly. The scrum half has enough to be doing trying to get from ruck to ruck and getting clean ball from each to be trying to direct the back line at the same time.
Oldschoolsocks wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 11:04 am
Being honest, they looked about 3 to 6 months away from hearing a big CLICK, and then they’ll be good again…
I’m not so sure. We’ve seen glimpses of what they’ve been trying to do at various times throughout the season, even early on in the season. If it was going to click it would have done so by now surely? Larkham has been there long enough. It’s hard to see his tenure there as anything other than a failure really.
Oldschoolsocks wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 11:04 am
Being honest, they looked about 3 to 6 months away from hearing a big CLICK, and then they’ll be good again…
I’m not so sure. We’ve seen glimpses of what they’ve been trying to do at various times throughout the season, even early on in the season. If it was going to click it would have done so by now surely? Larkham has been there long enough. It’s hard to see his tenure there as anything other than a failure really.
Yup, for whatever reason one of the best attacking FHs to grace the game was not at all successful with Munster, also have to agree that there have been some “false dawns” for our southern cousins.
In saying that I wouldn’t be surprised if there is all of a sudden they do get good when it does click into place, and I thought what was on display vs us in the Aviva looked a lot of the way there
Munster did look good in moments. They are evolving and credit to Larkham for that. They have a good squad and if Lancaster was coaching them, I think they'd be a lot better. Good man Stu, keep working in the pale!
Oldschoolsocks wrote: ↑May 24th, 2022, 11:04 am
Being honest, they looked about 3 to 6 months away from hearing a big CLICK, and then they’ll be good again…
I’m not so sure. We’ve seen glimpses of what they’ve been trying to do at various times throughout the season, even early on in the season. If it was going to click it would have done so by now surely? Larkham has been there long enough. It’s hard to see his tenure there as anything other than a failure really.
Yup, for whatever reason one of the best attacking FHs to grace the game was not at all successful with Munster, also have to agree that there have been some “false dawns” for our southern cousins.
In saying that I wouldn’t be surprised if there is all of a sudden they do get good when it does click into place, and I thought what was on display vs us in the Aviva looked a lot of the way there
A world cup winning coach wasn't successful with Munster.
Hoofhearted wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 8:28 pm
Donal Lenihan on Against The Head laying into the Munster slogans "The brave and rhe faithful, nothing impossible " "Stand up and Fight" nonsense is food for my soul.
Slogans won' win you Rugby games.
He's right, to be fair the Munster team in the 2000's probably played better than the sum of their parts because of their culture - not that they weren't good players. However, there are consequences to having coaches and players coming in from other provinces and other countries, that culture has to evolve and it hasn't yet from what I can make out.
Being brave and fighting hard isn't really a point of differentiation, there are teams across the world that do that too and they also have adventurous and innovative game plans and cultures driven by performance and identity.
Performance starts with honesty about where you are, Donal is being honest.
There's no question that individual skills levels are up at Munster and i think it's also fair enough to say that - given the player quality level at the province - the team is getting a decently high level of individual performance from them.
I just think that the absence of good attacking shape for long stints in all games is alarming. There's attacking intent and a fair degree of skill and power at times but the lack of joined-up thinking and execution of a game plan is very evident.
The new coaching ticket can't come fast enough and they need an injection of talent in key areas that hopefully in time will come from the improved academy.
[quote=jezzer post_id=804277 time=1653411643 user_id=73]
There's no question that individual skills levels are up at Munster and i think it's also fair enough to say that - given the player quality level at the province - the team is getting a decently high level of individual performance from them.
I just think that the absence of good attacking shape for long stints in all games is alarming. There's attacking intent and a fair degree of skill and power at times but the lack of joined-up thinking and execution of a game plan is very evident.
The new coaching ticket can't come fast enough and they need an injection of talent in key areas that hopefully in time will come from the improved academy.
[/quote]
There's an inertia to change in Munster. And it runs surprisingly deep. An example that always stands out for me is Nick Williams. Not world class but a potentially effective player. They liked the upside of his carrying but fans and players (my opinion) didn't like the downside and didn't want to carry him.
There's no room for Fancy Dan forwards. Conway set an U20 record for trys scored. He had to reinvent himself as a kick chaser to be a success in the team.
We might talk about our surprise at the lack of opportunities for Ahern, but Wycherley hasn't had that issue at all, completely the opposite. 86 Munster caps at only 24!! Coombes has 50 Munster caps.
There's a reason that Wycherley walks into the team but guys like Ahern and Coombes have to amaze before they get trusted.
Munster need to change how they pick the team. Jeremy Loughman can pass, but that wasn't a priority so he had to wait to get selected. It's useful when he plays, but I don't think he's getting picked because of it. Kendellen may have played a lot of rugby (19 games) but his 2nd game was against Castres in December. Wouldn't have happened without injuries. Pick guys who can play rugby, not guys who can fight.
true legend
