Montpellier v Leinster Friday 17th 8pm

[elephantman]

Common sense should prevail and Montpellier v Leinster should be rescheduled along with the other games cancelled this weekend. Let’s see what happens.

[desperado]

Not sure common sense will prevail with this group responsible for EPCR governance:?
Dominic McKay (interim Chairman), Anthony Lepage (EPCR interim Chief Executive), Martin Anayi (URC), Emmanuel Eschalier (LNR), Mark McCafferty (PRL), Bill Sweeney (RFU) and Andrea Rinaldo (FIR).

A veritable rogues gallery!

[desperado]

Adding to the impression that the EPCR is a joke; interim Chairman, and interim CEO. Not very effective succession planning for such (or any) organisation.

[Oldschool]

Think it's correct to say that the reason our game was declared a 28-0 result (Scarlets ditto) was because the games couldn't be rescheduled.
Given that it now appears that those games can be rescheduled then the original decision should be revoked and the games merely postponed.

[ronk]

It was impossible to reschedule games because it couldn't fit into the French calendar. When they all decided together not to travel, it became possible. Whether it's possible for Montpellier to reschedule depends mostly on their financial appetite for a rescheduled game.

There is no right and wrong in this, there is power and those without any.

[Oldschool]

It was impossible to reschedule games because it couldn't fit into the French calendar. When they all decided together not to travel, it became possible. Whether it's possible for Montpellier to reschedule depends mostly on their financial appetite for a rescheduled game.

There is no right and wrong in this, there is power and those without any.

You're suggesting that it's Montpellier's decision to make, I doubt that, that is the case.
As I pointed out earlier, some animals are more equal than others.

[riocard911]

It was impossible to reschedule games because it couldn't fit into the French calendar. When they all decided together not to travel, it became possible. Whether it's possible for Montpellier to reschedule depends mostly on their financial appetite for a rescheduled game.

There is no right and wrong in this, there is power and those without any.

And ne'er a truer word was said!!!

[desperado]

Think it's correct to say that the reason our game was declared a 28-0 result (Scarlets ditto) was because the games couldn't be rescheduled.
Given that it now appears that those games can be rescheduled then the original decision should be revoked and the games merely postponed.

Thats not correct. Have you read any of the statements at all ?

[Oldschool]

Think it's correct to say that the reason our game was declared a 28-0 result (Scarlets ditto) was because the games couldn't be rescheduled.
Given that it now appears that those games can be rescheduled then the original decision should be revoked and the games merely postponed.

Thats not correct. Have you read any of the statements at all ?

I read this one.

EPCR on December 6th

"We fully appreciate that this is not a route many will want to take however following an extensive review with all parties, postponement of the matches is unfortunately not a viable option due to the extremely busy rugby calendar."

https://twitter.com/ChampionsCup/status ... 71207?s=20
Look out Itchy, he's Irish
Top

[Flash Gordon]

It was impossible to reschedule games because it couldn't fit into the French calendar. When they all decided together not to travel, it became possible. Whether it's possible for Montpellier to reschedule depends mostly on their financial appetite for a rescheduled game.

There is no right and wrong in this, there is power and those without any.

This is where I struggle with the IRFU approach. Irish teams have won 7 of the competitions, we get the biggest crowds and our teams always turn up for games so the quality of the offering is top level. What have Montpellier contributed? They've never won it or come close to winning it, they have often looked disinterested and add questionable value.

I get that the TV deals might be more lucrative in France and England but we have been a major contributor to the tournament all the way through, In years when we haven't been in a semi or final the ERC were hosting events in half empty stadia with is a rubbish matchday experience that looks terrible on TV.

Why aren't the IRFU demanding accountability from the people who made this tournament the way it is? They said the commercial potential wasn't what it needed to be, are we asking the people who run this why what they said they would deliver isn't being delivered? Feels like we are constantly being treated like a minion when in reality the Irish teams have made this tournament what it is.

[Blueberry]

It was impossible to reschedule games because it couldn't fit into the French calendar. When they all decided together not to travel, it became possible. Whether it's possible for Montpellier to reschedule depends mostly on their financial appetite for a rescheduled game.

There is no right and wrong in this, there is power and those without any.

This is where I struggle with the IRFU approach. Irish teams have won 7 of the competitions, we get the biggest crowds and our teams always turn up for games so the quality of the offering is top level. What have Montpellier contributed? They've never won it or come close to winning it, they have often looked disinterested and add questionable value.

I get that the TV deals might be more lucrative in France and England but we have been a major contributor to the tournament all the way through, In years when we haven't been in a semi or final the ERC were hosting events in half empty stadia with is a rubbish matchday experience that looks terrible on TV.

Why aren't the IRFU demanding accountability from the people who made this tournament the way it is? They said the commercial potential wasn't what it needed to be, are we asking the people who run this why what they said they would deliver isn't being delivered? Feels like we are constantly being treated like a minion when in reality the Irish teams have made this tournament what it is.

Honestly don't know what the IRFU have done or try to do in terms of questioning what the EPCR do but this is the perfect time to raise the hackles and start throwing toys. Obviously if Leinster's appeal is granted it helps but what has occurred here needs a response at national level.

Bottom line is yes the UK and French TV deals are of course bigger than Ireland but if we (Ireland) pulled out what exactly is left of the 'European Cup', not much I'd say considering half the English and French Teams who play every year are never going to win it. Reality is it has become a competition of about 6-8 clubs in Ireland, France and the UK who actually are good enough to win it. Not going to get into a provincial row over this but the reality is in recent years Leinster and to a lesser extent Munster are in that list of 6-8 clubs who have a realistic chance of winning it or getting to the final 4.

Our 4 teams give it 100% every year we enter - can only say this about a handful of other teams who enter every year.

I would like to think the IRFU will raise a serious complaint/discussion with the EPCR post this mess.

Reality is the IRFU has a valuable asset in our provinces in terms of European Cup contributions and we need to ensure that they are getting a fair crack of the whip.

And yes I'm expecting a load of replies going on about how the Nigels and the Frenchies don't give a toss about us.......may be true but I'd love to know how well at a national level we have fought our corner.

[riocard911]

It was impossible to reschedule games because it couldn't fit into the French calendar. When they all decided together not to travel, it became possible. Whether it's possible for Montpellier to reschedule depends mostly on their financial appetite for a rescheduled game.

There is no right and wrong in this, there is power and those without any.

This is where I struggle with the IRFU approach. Irish teams have won 7 of the competitions, we get the biggest crowds and our teams always turn up for games so the quality of the offering is top level. What have Montpellier contributed? They've never won it or come close to winning it, they have often looked disinterested and add questionable value.

I get that the TV deals might be more lucrative in France and England but we have been a major contributor to the tournament all the way through, In years when we haven't been in a semi or final the ERC were hosting events in half empty stadia with is a rubbish matchday experience that looks terrible on TV.

Why aren't the IRFU demanding accountability from the people who made this tournament the way it is? They said the commercial potential wasn't what it needed to be, are we asking the people who run this why what they said they would deliver isn't being delivered? Feels like we are constantly being treated like a minion when in reality the Irish teams have made this tournament what it is.

Honestly don't know what the IRFU have done or try to do in terms of questioning what the EPCR do but this is the perfect time to raise the hackles and start throwing toys. Obviously if Leinster's appeal is granted it helps but what has occurred here needs a response at national level.

Bottom line is yes the UK and French TV deals are of course bigger than Ireland but if we (Ireland) pulled out what exactly is left of the 'European Cup', not much I'd say considering half the English and French Teams who play every year are never going to win it. Reality is it has become a competition of about 6-8 clubs in Ireland, France and the UK who actually are good enough to win it. Not going to get into a provincial row over this but the reality is in recent years Leinster and to a lesser extent Munster are in that list of 6-8 clubs who have a realistic chance of winning it or getting to the final 4.

Our 4 teams give it 100% every year we enter - can only say this about a handful of other teams who enter every year.

I would like to think the IRFU will raise a serious complaint/discussion with the EPCR post this mess.

Reality is the IRFU has a valuable asset in our provinces in terms of European Cup contributions and we need to ensure that they are getting a fair crack of the whip.

And yes I'm expecting a load of replies going on about how the Nigels and the Frenchies don't give a toss about us.......may be true but I'd love to know how well at a national level we have fought our corner.

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ronk]

All the above has been factored in already for them.

The break up of Super Rugby had noises for a few years but it was still a surprise to see it actually happen and when it did it went quickly.

If they can kick SA out it's a much much smaller step to free up a few weekends in the calendar. And there are things they could replace it with. But it's still a big earner with lots of TV money.

It's harder for us because URC isn't as mature and that's something we need to work on to rectify.

[LeinsterLeader]

I'd love to know how well at a national level we have fought our corner.

Yes. This. I am all about this

[allezlesverres]

Common sense should prevail and Montpellier v Leinster should be rescheduled along with the other games cancelled this weekend. Let’s see what happens.

I absolutely agree but I doubt it will happen. I'm sure it is possible to do but it would require flexibility/willingness from Montpellier and if you look at it from their side, there's no way they will want to risk the free 5 points so they will fight tooth and nail against it, and without their cooperation, ECPR wont alter the schedule. It is not a very edifying incident for the tournament or indeed the sport but there we are, I suppose we can chalk it up to the pandemic and hopefully normal service will resume soon.

If it pans out like that, it might at least add a bit of spice to the return leg where I would expect Leinster to give the visitors a warm welcome and an absolute hiding on the pitch.

[Oldschool]

Common sense should prevail and Montpellier v Leinster should be rescheduled along with the other games cancelled this weekend. Let’s see what happens.

I absolutely agree but I doubt it will happen. I'm sure it is possible to do but it would require flexibility/willingness from Montpellier and if you look at it from their side, there's no way they will want to risk the free 5 points so they will fight tooth and nail against it, and without their cooperation, ECPR wont alter the schedule. It is not a very edifying incident for the tournament or indeed the sport but there we are, I suppose we can chalk it up to the pandemic and hopefully normal service will resume soon.

If it pans out like that, it might at least add a bit of spice to the return leg where I would expect Leinster to give the visitors a warm welcome and an absolute hiding on the pitch.

Leinster had no say in the decision, I honestly don't see why Montpellier have any say in reversing it.
This is part of the original problem PSA should have been told he had no say in Leinster's compliance or otherwise with the rules, he should however have been queried strongly about Montpellier's own compliance.

[Flash Gordon]

Common sense should prevail and Montpellier v Leinster should be rescheduled along with the other games cancelled this weekend. Let’s see what happens.

I absolutely agree but I doubt it will happen. I'm sure it is possible to do but it would require flexibility/willingness from Montpellier and if you look at it from their side, there's no way they will want to risk the free 5 points so they will fight tooth and nail against it, and without their cooperation, ECPR wont alter the schedule. It is not a very edifying incident for the tournament or indeed the sport but there we are, I suppose we can chalk it up to the pandemic and hopefully normal service will resume soon.

If it pans out like that, it might at least add a bit of spice to the return leg where I would expect Leinster to give the visitors a warm welcome and an absolute hiding on the pitch.

The big issue is the legal one. Last year anybody who had 5 covid cases forfeited. Toulon were victims of that and went mad about it. Understandable from their side but the rules were in place I guess. The issue here is the rules don't seem to be clear this year and the result is inconsistent application. If that happens we might see clubs lawyering up. As I was saying, there is also an accountability point on the people who run the tournament. Why aren't the rules clear and why are the same situations being treated differently?

[desperado]

Think it's correct to say that the reason our game was declared a 28-0 result (Scarlets ditto) was because the games couldn't be rescheduled.
Given that it now appears that those games can be rescheduled then the original decision should be revoked and the games merely postponed.

Thats not correct. Have you read any of the statements at all ?

I read this one.

EPCR on December 6th

"We fully appreciate that this is not a route many will want to take however following an extensive review with all parties, postponement of the matches is unfortunately not a viable option due to the extremely busy rugby calendar."

https://twitter.com/ChampionsCup/status ... 71207?s=20
Look out Itchy, he's Irish
Top

I despair.... you are quoting a statement which is not the decision on the MHR v Leinster match.
Decision on Leinster match: https://www.epcrugby.com/2021/12/16/hei ... -decision/ '
How did you get out of that statement "quote "I think its correct that the reason our game was declared a 28-0 result ( Scarlets ditto) was because the games couldn't be rescheduled " unquote"
Decision on round other postponed ROUND 2 matches: https://www.epcrugby.com/2021/12/17/epc ... 2-matches/

EPCR made the point of differentiating between the ' exceptional circumstances' , and that the decision on the Leinster match was cancellation based on tournament rules. LR are fuming, we're fuming, and can query if you can postpone matches now; how come you couldn't postpone all of the matches.

[Oldschool]

Thats not correct. Have you read any of the statements at all ?

I read this one.

EPCR on December 6th

"We fully appreciate that this is not a route many will want to take however following an extensive review with all parties, postponement of the matches is unfortunately not a viable option due to the extremely busy rugby calendar."

https://twitter.com/ChampionsCup/status ... 71207?s=20
Look out Itchy, he's Irish
Top

I despair.... you are quoting a statement which is not the decision on the MHR v Leinster match.
Decision on Leinster match: https://www.epcrugby.com/2021/12/16/hei ... -decision/ '
How did you get out of that statement "quote "I think its correct that the reason our game was declared a 28-0 result ( Scarlets ditto) was because the games couldn't be rescheduled " unquote"
Decision on round other postponed ROUND 2 matches: https://www.epcrugby.com/2021/12/17/epc ... 2-matches/

EPCR made the point of differentiating between the ' exceptional circumstances' , and that the decision on the Leinster match was cancellation based on tournament rules. LR are fuming, we're fuming, and can query if you can postpone matches now; how come you couldn't postpone all of the matches.

The EPCR decided that our match couldn't be postponed.
As a consequence of that decision, they then had to decide who to award the result to.

To make it very clear the EPRC didn't firstly decide to give Montpellier a 28-0 victory over Leinster and then subsequently decide that the match couldn't be postponed and played at a later date.

Subsequently the EPCR decided that matches could be postponed, after all.
It is therefore recumbent on them to apply that decision retrospectively.
Regardless of the rules appled, the important thing is that the rules were applied because a postponement wasn't possible, according to the EPRC.
They can't have it both ways although no doubt they will.
Any statement the EPRC made after the postponements was and is simply self serving. The application of hindsight nothing more.
Ase for exceptional circumstances.
An exceptional circumstance would be to ensure the integrity of the competition. If the favourite or one of the favourites to win the competition is knocked out by exceptional circumstances then that's another exceptional circumstance that needs to be considered.

Thankfully I don't suffer from despair so I can only hope that my efforts to explain my own understanding of the situation will somehow have the effect of reducing your anguish (anguish and despair seem to go together).

[LeinsterLeader]

Anyway, GT has laid out why he feels it ain't going to happen, on OTB. Not a lot of sympathy from Gerry and he does bring up some good points (eg going against the medics decision when "You need those medical personnel in this current climate”), but I feel he hasn't covered all the basis here (eg how were Wasps were allowed to play their game via Munster and also Leinster believing they had passed the objectives they were required to)

That said, I think he's right and there will be no change. Mainly because back tracking at this stage would be deemed by EPCR as opening a bigger can of worms then just sticking to their guns.

Rugby journalist Gerry Thornley believes it’s unlikely that Leinster will succeed in overturning the decision to cancel their Champions Cup game against Montpellier.

Leinster’s trip to France was called off last Thursday after the province reported multiple Covid-19 cases within the club.

As per the Tournament Rules, the French outfit were thus awarded a 28-0 win.

Reports this weekend suggested that Leinster would appeal the verdict.

Leinster’s stance came in the wake of the news that European games between English and French clubs, also due to take place at the weekend, were merely postponed, with hopes to play these fixtures at a later date.

However, Thornley notes that there are subtle differences between Leinster’s situation and that of the English and French clubs.

Speaking on Monday Night Rugby, the Irish Times journalist outlined the intricacies of the decision to cancel Leinster’s crucial European tie.

“In the case of Leinster-Montpellier, Montpellier had one case on Monday, which was their fifth in total, and none after that,” Thornley said.

“They were testing everyday as well, and reported no other cases; Leinster were reporting positive cases on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and again on Thursday.”

“I’m told that we’re talking in excess of 20 over the four days. The problem is that they were coming from the wider group.”

“Whereas with Munster, who were able to isolate the group that were in the high-performance centre from the other two bubbles that were affected by the South Africa trip, this was not the case in Leinster.”

Thornley: "You need those medical personnel in this current climate”
Thornley also noted that the cancellation of this weekend’s fixture was not merely a snap decision.

“They had the Match Risk Advisory Committee, which includes CMOs and doctors and medics from all across of the six participating countries,” Thornley explained.

“From this, they drew a panel of seven to adjudicate on this match. I’m told the IRFU CMO was also involved in this. They came to the unanimous decision that the match should not go ahead, that it was unsafe to do so.”

“Even though Leinster got permission from Public Health Ireland and went to extraordinary lengths with PCR tests and antigen tests, the fact is that the ERC’s medical advisory group said this game should not go ahead.”

“If you’re going to employ a raft of CMOs and medics to make that decision, you can’t really ignore it and go against it,” Thornley argued.

“Otherwise, they’ll just walk away, and you need those medical personnel in this current climate.”

Thornley continued by stressing the contrasting aspects between Leinster’s plight and that of English and French clubs.

“The postponed games came out of the blue because of the French government’s travel restrictions imposed between the UK and France.”

“Therefore, they couldn’t use the 28-0 walkovers, that blunt instrument that they have.”

“All they could do is postpone five Champions Cup games and two Challenge Cup games. I’m not sure they really had any other choice.”

“They are the rules; it is unfair"
Thornley also remarked that such unfortunate circumstances can befall any European team. “All participating clubs and all three leagues signed up to the regulations that are in place - that includes Leinster.”

“A verdict, however unpalatable it is to them, has been made. I just don’t see how it’s going to be reversed.”

“They are the rules; it is unfair. It was unfair when Toulon pitched up in Dublin last year to play Leinster in the last 16, and they were told to go home.”

“There weren’t many tears shed for Toulon then. I think there’s been some sympathy in France. But I can’t see Montpellier being of a mind to play the game when they’ve already been awarded a walkover.”