Leinster vs Ulster, RDS, 27/11/21, 8pm

[ronk]

Sure. There's a chicken and egg problem though. You need to be trustworthy to be trusted.

I don't think he was that bad. A few errors but some decent play too.

In an outhalf the discipline to play a less ambitious game is as important as the toolset to execute a high risk game. He's a good player and he'll do better. But the problem isn't that he's rusty, the problem is that he didn't adjust his game to the fact that he was rusty.

[wixfjord]

Harry Byrne coming on reminded me of him coming on vs Argentina, he didn't do the basics, veering towards the spectacular and forced things when a bit of patience was required. Can't help feeling he sometimes plays for Harry Byrne not the team.

Yep agree. It's becoming a bit of a recurring problem unfortunately.

More premature negativity here.

HB has averaged less than 20 minutes a game in his last 5 matches dating back to June.

He has averaged 1 match a month (until the 'goldrush' of the last 2 weekends when he got a total 45 mins)

He has played for 2 teams in those 5 matches. Starting only 1 (for Leinster) when he lasted 22 minutes before going off after a very heavy collision.

11th June, 54 mins, Leinster victory; 10th July, 28 mins, Irish victory; 3 month's later, 9th October, 22 mins, Leinster victory; 6 weeks later, 30 mins, Irish victory; 27 November, 15 mins, Leinster loss.

So he has played 37 minutes, 7 weeks apart for Leinster thisa season, both times as a sub, once with the pack playing very poorly.


For fear of embarrassing themselves further (although I suspect at least one poster had that capability surgically removed some time ago), some people here need to wind their necks in a lot re HB and let things develop. The Messiah he is not, but neither is he a silly, naughty boy.

Maybe you could send me a DM about it eh?

[riocard911]

A recent quote from Eddie Jones on Marcus Smith, imo the same applies to HByrne:

“Marcus is probably only going to be at his best in his late twenties, so we need to help him along this emotional journey and remind him about the journeys taken by some other great number 10s. When was Dan Carter at his best? At his last World Cup in 2015. Is Beauden Barrett a fully mature 10? No. He is a great player, but the best is still to come for him. Number 10s are like quarterbacks. You’ve got to allow them to fail. You’ve got to give them time to mature. The good ones come through. They repay you. They might have two or three years at their very best. But it is a demanding position.”

Eddie knows what hes talking about.

Good post. I think Harry needs more minutes including to be starting more often, in order to improve his game and his game management. If that be at the expense of his older brother, so be it.

[backrower8]

A recent quote from Eddie Jones on Marcus Smith, imo the same applies to HByrne:

“Marcus is probably only going to be at his best in his late twenties, so we need to help him along this emotional journey and remind him about the journeys taken by some other great number 10s. When was Dan Carter at his best? At his last World Cup in 2015. Is Beauden Barrett a fully mature 10? No. He is a great player, but the best is still to come for him. Number 10s are like quarterbacks. You’ve got to allow them to fail. You’ve got to give them time to mature. The good ones come through. They repay you. They might have two or three years at their very best. But it is a demanding position.”

Eddie knows what hes talking about.

Good post. I think Harry needs more minutes including to be starting more often, in order to improve his game and his game management. If that be at the expense of his older brother, so be it.

Yes, good post, mind you I think if that is what Eddie says he is overplaying how long it takes to get a bloody good return on investment from classy 10s. Dan Carter was pretty sensational in the 2009 Lions series, and that wasn't an isolated incident. Barrett and Farrell were in credit from early in their international careers too.

The problem here, for all players in this era, is getting game time. And that was before Covid further limited the pathways.

[Blueberry]

A recent quote from Eddie Jones on Marcus Smith, imo the same applies to HByrne:

“Marcus is probably only going to be at his best in his late twenties, so we need to help him along this emotional journey and remind him about the journeys taken by some other great number 10s. When was Dan Carter at his best? At his last World Cup in 2015. Is Beauden Barrett a fully mature 10? No. He is a great player, but the best is still to come for him. Number 10s are like quarterbacks. You’ve got to allow them to fail. You’ve got to give them time to mature. The good ones come through. They repay you. They might have two or three years at their very best. But it is a demanding position.”

Eddie knows what hes talking about.

Good post. I think Harry needs more minutes including to be starting more often, in order to improve his game and his game management. If that be at the expense of his older brother, so be it.

Totally agree - Harry needs gametime and lots of it. I have no doubt the talent is there but the problem is people expect him to be J10 who has spent over a decade getting as good as he is.......

We need to invest here to reap rewards.

[Flash Gordon]

A recent quote from Eddie Jones on Marcus Smith, imo the same applies to HByrne:

“Marcus is probably only going to be at his best in his late twenties, so we need to help him along this emotional journey and remind him about the journeys taken by some other great number 10s. When was Dan Carter at his best? At his last World Cup in 2015. Is Beauden Barrett a fully mature 10? No. He is a great player, but the best is still to come for him. Number 10s are like quarterbacks. You’ve got to allow them to fail. You’ve got to give them time to mature. The good ones come through. They repay you. They might have two or three years at their very best. But it is a demanding position.”

Eddie knows what hes talking about.

Good post. I think Harry needs more minutes including to be starting more often, in order to improve his game and his game management. If that be at the expense of his older brother, so be it.

Jones is probably the most singularly ruthless coach in world rugby. He will drop anyone who he thinks isn't going to contribute to the success of the team. He flogs players and drops them when they aren't of any use.

With regards to Harry Byrne, I hear what you are saying in terms of him getting more game time but the reality is that the coaches aren't picking him and with the new URC format there's less opportunity for risk free experimentation. I know someone was getting upset about the comments about Harry pushing things towards the spectacular too often but that was exactly Leo's assessment of the way we played the last quarter. He suggested that there was a need for more patience. Sure he's an inexperienced kid but that's the constructive criticism he needs to take on board to develop.

Ideally he will get more game and development time but I'm not sure he will. The coaches see all the players in training week in week out and the coaches seem to prefer Ross. To be fair, there's probably a bit too much focus on this position and the player given the lack of a clear successor to Sexton but that's the reality of top level sport and playing arguably the most important position on the pitch.

[Dave Cahill]

Harry isn't playing well at the moment, and like a lot of young players when they aren't playing well, he's trying to force form to return. It doesn't work that way and he'll learn that (if he hasn't already). He'll be back and be all the better for it.

[Lock9541]

I’d like to see Harry Byrne get game time starting in the Ail for Lansdowne instead of coming on last few minutes off the bench for Leinster. He needs to be starting games in the Ail to get his confidence back up.

[hugonaut]

Harry isn't playing well at the moment, and like a lot of young players when they aren't playing well, he's trying to force form to return. It doesn't work that way and he'll learn that (if he hasn't already). He'll be back and be all the better for it.

I agree. I think that one was a learning experience for him [and hopefully for Tommy O'Brien too].

He came on when we were 20 points up and playing against 14 men in the Argentina game. He could push the envelope a bit and f*ck up and it didn't really matter, the game was in the bag. This time, his mistakes did matter. It's always better to learn from somebody else's mistakes, but as we have probably all experienced in our own lives, no lesson sticks like learning from a mistake you have made yourself.

[IanD]

A recent quote from Eddie Jones on Marcus Smith, imo the same applies to HByrne:

“Marcus is probably only going to be at his best in his late twenties, so we need to help him along this emotional journey and remind him about the journeys taken by some other great number 10s. When was Dan Carter at his best? At his last World Cup in 2015. Is Beauden Barrett a fully mature 10? No. He is a great player, but the best is still to come for him. Number 10s are like quarterbacks. You’ve got to allow them to fail. You’ve got to give them time to mature. The good ones come through. They repay you. They might have two or three years at their very best. But it is a demanding position.”

Eddie knows what hes talking about.

Interesting post. But....

.... When you start quoting Eddie Jones you have already lost the argument.

[leinsterforever]

Frank Murphy wasn't the reason we lost. He was the reason it was a terrible game with some glaring issues going against both sides.

This is so spot on.

The Furlong penalty where it couldn't have been a ruck got a suitably withering look.

Holding on penalties where the jackal had no release were a feature I noticed.

But, in order to be legal, doesn't Furlong have to get his hands on the ball before he himself forms the ruck?

[Ruckedtobits]

Lots of comments here fed by personal interpretation and long-standing affiliations. It's worth remembering at what age J10 made his Irish debut and how much he learned during the period from age 19 to 24. Sometimes you just can't accelerate that pace of development.

[wixfjord]

According to Leinster backs coach Felipe Contepomi, it’s all part of the learning process for a player who finds himself at an important stage of his career as he looks to take the next step in his development. So far this season, the 22-year-old has played just 38 minutes for Leinster and 30 minutes for Ireland.

“Definitely the first thing is that it’s good to see him training and injury-free for at least a month or more than five weeks,” Contepomi said, referencing Byrne’s injury struggles over the past year.

So that’s the first positive thing to see, and then maybe in the games you could see he’s forcing (things)… he’s very talented but you need to fit that talent into teamwork and into a team-like flow, especially if you’re a 10. You need to make it flow rather than flow yourself.
“It’s something he’s learning and he will learn, but the talent is there and the potential is there, and it’s great to have him and hopefully he will have more minutes and keep developing.

“He’s young, and sometimes we expect (a lot), and sometimes it doesn’t work that easily for a young out-half. You need experiences. It’s not about age, but it’s about passing through similar situations over and over, and sometimes making errors and learning from them, that’s what gives you experience.

I think this is bang on from Felipe, a guy who would know better than anyone how to handle a maverick outhalf.

Clearly Harry is incredibly talented, but clearly he also needs to learn a bit of game management and not try to be constantly doing it all himself or going for the huge Hollywood plays.

I've no doubt that will come with game time.

It's a bit weird that some are choosing to see this as an 'attack' on Harry, it's an observation that is supported by his performances and more importantly by his coaches.

[wixfjord]

Totally agree - Harry needs gametime and lots of it. I have no doubt the talent is there but the problem is people expect him to be J10 who has spent over a decade getting as good as he is.......

Absolutely nobody expects that at all.

Why is a fairly reasoned critique of a very talented player about how he needs to evolve being met with such annoyance and abuse?

Nobody is expecting him to be perfect at all, but like do people think fans on a Leinster board should just be constantly positive even in the face of facts to the contrary?

[riocard911]

Harry's major "mistake" vs Ulster was to kick the ball out on the full just after the Ulster restart. Leo even alluded to it in his post-match interview. There are two things about that. One, it looked to me, that it was so close to the line - and maybe even on it - that coming at it from another angle, the touch judge might have given the line out right there and not back from where HB had kicked it. Had the decision gone Leinster's way and had they subsequently managed to keep Ulster down deep in their half and score the next try, we'd all be singing Harry's praises to the roof. Two, the top players push things and make things happen - with the risk being, that it doesn't always work. Johnny Sexton has more than ten years more experience than Harry at Test level and he still over-egged a kick to touch in the RWC2019 quarter-final vs NZ, and because of the low height on the ball at the line Richie Muonga was able to keep the damn thing in and Ireland's opportunity for a line out maul plus try was lost. One could argue, that that one kick was the decisive moment in the match. Have we forgiven J10 for this particular mistake? I certainly have.

[wixfjord]

Harry's major "mistake" vs Ulster was to kick the ball out on the full just after the Ulster restart. Leo even alluded to it in his post-match interview. There are two things about that. One, it looked to me, that it was so close to the line - and maybe even on it - that coming at it from another angle, the touch judge might have given the line out right there and not back from where HB had kicked it. Had the decision gone Leinster's way and had they subsequently managed to keep Ulster down deep in their half and score the next try, we'd all be singing Harry's praises to the roof. Two, the top players push things and make things happen - with the risk being, that it doesn't always work. Johnny Sexton has more than ten years more experience than Harry at Test level and he still over-egged a kick to touch in the RWC2019 quarter-final vs NZ, and because of the low height on the ball at the line Richie Muonga was able to keep the damn thing in and Ireland's opportunity for a line out maul plus try was lost. One could argue, that that one kick was the decisive moment in the match. Have we forgiven J10 for this particular mistake? I certainly have.

You love a bit of whataboutery eh?

All players make mistakes. Nobody is castigating Harry for trying things or making errors.

What you and other seem to want to make out is that people are calling for his head or something?

That's not the case.

He's a good, talented player who can be a really great player when he learns a little bit more self control and to use his teammates rather than trying to do it all.

That will hopefully come with experience.

But it's not wrong, harsh or unfair to highlight it. Particularly since the people who really know him, his coaches, have also done it publicly.

[riocard911]

Harry's major "mistake" vs Ulster was to kick the ball out on the full just after the Ulster restart. Leo even alluded to it in his post-match interview. There are two things about that. One, it looked to me, that it was so close to the line - and maybe even on it - that coming at it from another angle, the touch judge might have given the line out right there and not back from where HB had kicked it. Had the decision gone Leinster's way and had they subsequently managed to keep Ulster down deep in their half and score the next try, we'd all be singing Harry's praises to the roof. Two, the top players push things and make things happen - with the risk being, that it doesn't always work. Johnny Sexton has more than ten years more experience than Harry at Test level and he still over-egged a kick to touch in the RWC2019 quarter-final vs NZ, and because of the low height on the ball at the line Richie Muonga was able to keep the damn thing in and Ireland's opportunity for a line out maul plus try was lost. One could argue, that that one kick was the decisive moment in the match. Have we forgiven J10 for this particular mistake? I certainly have.

You love a bit of whataboutery eh?

All players make mistakes. Nobody is castigating Harry for trying things or making errors.

What you and other seem to want to make out is that people are calling for his head or something?

That's not the case.

He's a good, talented player who can be a really great player when he learns a little bit more self control and to use his teammates rather than trying to do it all.

That will hopefully come with experience.

But it's not wrong, harsh or unfair to highlight it. Particularly since the people who really know him, his coaches, have also done it publicly.

I wasn't trying to engage in whataboutery at all, but merely to contribute to the discussion. I agree with all the points you make and what Leo and Felipe said also. All good.

[Oldschool]

Nobody, as far as I'm aware, has mentioned the lack of leadership both on and off the pitch.
Leinster never got into gear and at no stage did it appear that a council of war was in progress to at the very least get the aggression going never mind the thinking part of the process.
This is the second time, this season, that this has happened, meaning we didn't learn from the first experience.
That's now something that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

[mildlyinterested]

they are missing scott fardy a lot.

[RoboProp]

they are missing scott fardy a lot.

You really can't put a € sign on the added value a player like Fards brought to the squad. I think we still need an Ollie, Isa, Hinsey or Fards to steady the ship when the internationals are away.