Glasgow Warriors v Leinster Friday 7.35 Premier/TG4

[riocard911]

I don't think it was ever the desire of the Irish state to replace English with Irish. As I understand it, the aim was and has always been to rejuvenate the national language, thereby saving that which makes the Irish as a nation unique. I've have nothing against English, however I can say, as someone who has lived on the Continent for 30+ years, that no one there takes our claims to being something other than some variation of Brit seriously, due the vast majority of the population's failure to speak its own native tongue. As the historian Joe Lee pointed out decades ago in his seminal work "Ireland 1912–1985 - Politics and Society" many small European countries manage to maintain their own languages and learn English too and are the better for it.

[Oldschool]

I don't think it was ever the desire of the Irish state to replace English with Irish. As I understand it, the aim was and has always been to rejuvenate the national language, thereby saving that which makes the Irish as a nation unique. I've have nothing against English, however I can say, as someone who has lived on the Continent for 30+ years, that no one there takes our claims to being something other than some variation of Brit seriously, due the vast majority of the population's failure to speak its own native tongue. As the historian Joe Lee pointed out decades ago in his seminal work "Ireland 1912–1985 - Politics and Society" many small European countries manage to maintain their own languages and learn English too and are the better for it.

I would disagree.
For a very long time.
1. You had to pass Irish to pass your leaving certificate.
2. You couldn't get a job in the Civil Service if you didn't pass Irish.
3. If you failed Irish and had to repeat it the best you could get was a.pass.

The ignorance of the continentals has more to do with their own arrogance than the fact that we speak English.
If you are being honest we are culturally far more in tune with the English than any other country.
Given our close historical ties if that's a surprise to them then shame on their ignorance.

And while I am at I don't give a flying damn what they think about our language being English.
I've met plenty of them, worked with quite a few of them and they are like most other people on the planet.
You meet all sorts.
My own impression is that in business they have a lot of respect for Irish people.
The French will almost point blank refuse to speak English to you (even when you are the client) whereas the Germans almost want to show off that they can speak English.
Joe Lee was probably generalising so I wouldn't be overly impressed.
They learn English and are the better for it for one very good reason, perhaps you would like to guess what that reason might. I was able to work it out without having to read any seminal works by an historian
They're all probably learning Chinese now as well.

[riocard911]

Gan dabht, Oldschool, the policies you refer to did cause resentment. That said, I think they were implemented more out of desperation, than any desire to transform the populace into a horde of monolingual Gaeilge-bots. In principle I don't think there is any contradiction between rejuvenating Irish and maintaining English as one of two national languages. According to the linguists, acquiring two languages makes acquiring a third or more even easier. Joe Lee was not referring to small European countries such as Denmark and Finland being better off for learning English in addition to their own languages, but rather being better off in particular intellectually compared to Ireland by virtue of preserving and nurturing their respective native tongues.

p.s. You were absolutely correct: Duolingo is great. I'm currently on 200+ day streak with the aul Erse!!!

[Oldschool]

Gan dabht, Oldschool, the policies you refer to did cause resentment. That said, I think they were implemented more out of desperation, than any desire to transform the populace into a horde of monolingual Gaeilge-bots. In principle I don't think there is any contradiction between rejuvenating Irish and maintaining English as one of two national languages. According to the linguists, acquiring two languages makes acquiring a third or more even easier. Joe Lee was not referring to small European countries such as Denmark and Finland being better off for learning English in addition to their own languages, but rather being better off in particular intellectually compared to Ireland by virtue of preserving and nurturing their respective native tongues.

p.s. You were absolutely correct: Duolingo is great. I'm currently on 200+ day streak with the aul Erse!!!

I'm even winning that battle I'm on 333 with The French.

However there are already some signs that kids in Irish schools are struggling with their reading levels of English.
The warning signs are there and should not be ignored.
You won't get official Ireland to acknowledge that btw

[riocard911]

"kids in Irish schools"? Some kids in Ireland, the UK and the US are having to do remedial English in first year college, their mastery (sic) of the language is so bad. Very little to do with the Gaelscoileanna, I posit. Re your lead on the Duolinguo front all I can say is "chapeau" and fair play to ya!!!

[fourthirtythree]

Free State? Are you living in the 1920s or a member of the IRA in the 1980s?

[Oldschoolsocks]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

[Oldschool]

Free State? Are you living in the 1920s or a member of the IRA in the 1980s?

I knew you'd bite.

[erskinechilders]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

Primary schools often don't take it seriously due to the fact that very few of the primary teachers are fluent speakers. You only need a C ( H5 these days ) to get in to primary teaching. As a gaeilgeoir and someone who received all 14 years of primary and secondary level education through Irish, I'm immensely proud to be able to speak the language. I believe more and more primary schools should be gaeilscoileanna, with the option of doing French, Spanish, german etc. in secondary school as is.

Wales have started to do likewise and over the last 20/30 years the % of people fluent in Welsh has gone through the roof. Cardiff are hoping 70% of the primary schools in the area will be Welsh speaking schools by the end of the decade.

[Laighin Break]

Free State? Are you living in the 1920s or a member of the IRA in the 1980s?

He also likes to use the term the british isles (see Connacht thread), just trying to be a WUM. Best not to bite

[Laighin Break]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

No doubt something needs to be done to improve the standard. Unfortunately it seems that the unions are often very reluctant to change in general (see calls for introducing continuous assessment voted down)
Each year there seem to be more and more gaelscoileanna opening, which is great, but will the demand of fluent Irish speaking teachers be there? That's an issue.
To say primary schools haven't taken it seriously though is a bit of a generalisation. Some are great, some don't care. Same goes for gaelscoileanna - some are great at promoting the language and you'll hear kids speaking Irish everywhere, some are terrible and all the kids will speak English.

However there are already some signs that kids in Irish schools are struggling with their reading levels of English.

Please share this study as I reckon this is complete BS. No one I know struggled with this more than other subjects.

[riocard911]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

Primary schools often don't take it seriously due to the fact that very few of the primary teachers are fluent speakers. You only need a C ( H5 these days ) to get in to primary teaching. As a gaeilgeoir and someone who received all 14 years of primary and secondary level education through Irish, I'm immensely proud to be able to speak the language. I believe more and more primary schools should be gaeilscoileanna, with the option of doing French, Spanish, german etc. in secondary school as is.

Wales have started to do likewise and over the last 20/30 years the % of people fluent in Welsh has gone through the roof. Cardiff are hoping 70% of the primary schools in the area will be Welsh speaking schools by the end of the decade.

+1

[Oldschool]

Free State? Are you living in the 1920s or a member of the IRA in the 1980s?

He also likes to use the term the british isles (see Connacht thread), just trying to be a WUM. Best not to bite

Too late

[Oldschool]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

No doubt something needs to be done to improve the standard. Unfortunately it seems that the unions are often very reluctant to change in general (see calls for introducing continuous assessment voted down)
Each year there seem to be more and more gaelscoileanna opening, which is great, but will the demand of fluent Irish speaking teachers be there? That's an issue.
To say primary schools haven't taken it seriously though is a bit of a generalisation. Some are great, some don't care. Same goes for gaelscoileanna - some are great at promoting the language and you'll hear kids speaking Irish everywhere, some are terrible and all the kids will speak English.

However there are already some signs that kids in Irish schools are struggling with their reading levels of English.

Please share this study as I reckon this is complete BS. No one I know struggled with this more than other subjects.

Very predictable Ostrich response.
So you seriously think that.
A. The civil servants are going to carry out such a study.
B. Publish any adverse observations.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

No doubt something needs to be done to improve the standard. Unfortunately it seems that the unions are often very reluctant to change in general (see calls for introducing continuous assessment voted down)
Each year there seem to be more and more gaelscoileanna opening, which is great, but will the demand of fluent Irish speaking teachers be there? That's an issue.
To say primary schools haven't taken it seriously though is a bit of a generalisation. Some are great, some don't care. Same goes for gaelscoileanna - some are great at promoting the language and you'll hear kids speaking Irish everywhere, some are terrible and all the kids will speak English.

However there are already some signs that kids in Irish schools are struggling with their reading levels of English.

Please share this study as I reckon this is complete BS. No one I know struggled with this more than other subjects.

It is a generalisation - but I think it is correct, fourteen years of education in a subject and the vast majority of pupils graduate without the ability to carry on a conversation as Gaeilge. My kids went to one of the largest national schools in the country, and the level of knowledge of the language leaving sixth class is horrendously bad. My son came home with a test paper for me to sign, he got 46% basically because he could not count people. I rang the teacher and she explained that he was slightly above average in the class.

so when you say some are great and some don't care I think you're bang on and this stinks of an education system that is just not taking it seriously at all.

shame really...

[hugonaut]

In principle I don't think there is any contradiction between rejuvenating Irish and maintaining English as one of two national languages. According to the linguists, acquiring two languages makes acquiring a third or more even easier. Joe Lee was not referring to small European countries such as Denmark and Finland being better off for learning English in addition to their own languages, but rather being better off in particular intellectually compared to Ireland by virtue of preserving and nurturing their respective native tongues.

A link to a précis of a study on this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110915.htm

"According to the researchers, these results show that the more languages a person learns, the higher his or her intelligence will be ... fluency and skills in one language assist in the language acquisition of a second language, and possessing skills in two languages can boost the learning process of a third language."

[Oldschool]

I just think that if Irish is to be a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert, then there should be a workable solution to teaching it as a subject.

I got an awful shock when I realised my kids were so bad at it. They are incredibly bright kids, but their standard of Irish is worse than mine and mine is scraping a D in Pass Leaving Cert level. It's obvious to me that the primary schools just hasn't taken is seriously

No doubt something needs to be done to improve the standard. Unfortunately it seems that the unions are often very reluctant to change in general (see calls for introducing continuous assessment voted down)
Each year there seem to be more and more gaelscoileanna opening, which is great, but will the demand of fluent Irish speaking teachers be there? That's an issue.
To say primary schools haven't taken it seriously though is a bit of a generalisation. Some are great, some don't care. Same goes for gaelscoileanna - some are great at promoting the language and you'll hear kids speaking Irish everywhere, some are terrible and all the kids will speak English.

However there are already some signs that kids in Irish schools are struggling with their reading levels of English.

Please share this study as I reckon this is complete BS. No one I know struggled with this more than other subjects.

It is a generalisation - but I think it is correct, fourteen years of education in a subject and the vast majority of pupils graduate without the ability to carry on a conversation as Gaeilge. My kids went to one of the largest national schools in the country, and the level of knowledge of the language leaving sixth class is horrendously bad. My son came home with a test paper for me to sign, he got 46% basically because he could not count people. I rang the teacher and she explained that he was slightly above average in the class.

so when you say some are great and some don't care I think you're bang on and this stinks of an education system that is just not taking it seriously at all.

shame really...

Does the outcome reflect in any way the choices that secondary school pupils, parents and teachers make when deciding what subjects to spend their precious time on.
Bearing in mind that those decisions are influenced by what kind of careers they may be thinking of following.

[Laighin Break]

However there are already some signs that kids in Irish schools are struggling with their reading levels of English.

Please share this study as I reckon this is complete BS. No one I know struggled with this more than other subjects.

Very predictable Ostrich response.
So you seriously think that.
A. The civil servants are going to carry out such a study.
B. Publish any adverse observations.

So you just made that up. Very good

[Oldschool]

In principle I don't think there is any contradiction between rejuvenating Irish and maintaining English as one of two national languages. According to the linguists, acquiring two languages makes acquiring a third or more even easier. Joe Lee was not referring to small European countries such as Denmark and Finland being better off for learning English in addition to their own languages, but rather being better off in particular intellectually compared to Ireland by virtue of preserving and nurturing their respective native tongues.

A link to a précis of a study on this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110915.htm

"According to the researchers, these results show that the more languages a person learns, the higher his or her intelligence will be ... fluency and skills in one language assist in the language acquisition of a second language, and possessing skills in two languages can boost the learning process of a third language."

That's not really the issue tho'.
It's what languages should the time be spent on.
For instance I'm learning French for a number of reasons.
One of them (not the main one) being the fact that learning a second language is a very good way of avoiding Senility and/or Alzheimer's.
Teaching Gaelic and the setting up of Scoil Gaelge (there seems to be a concerted push to build more and more of them it would seem.) is fine so long as it's not at the expense of other subjects and especially English given how important that language is to the rest of the world.
We have a huge advantage already in having English as our effective first language it would be stupid to give that up voluntarily.

[Oldschool]

Please share this study as I reckon this is complete BS. No one I know struggled with this more than other subjects.

Very predictable Ostrich response.
So you seriously think that.
A. The civil servants are going to carry out such a study.
B. Publish any adverse observations.

So you just made that up. Very good

Yep but not without some hard evidence for believing it's quite likely to happen.
Take Slaintecare as example.
A number of the top people involved resign
Next "day" you and I are told 97% of the "items" for implementation have been achieved.
So why did the resignations happen if things are going so swimmingly.