The Leinster Scrumhalf preview 2021/22

[mildlyinterested]

Jamison Gibson Park(29) - signed 3yr contract in 2019
Luke McGrath(28/St. Michaels/UCD) - signed contract in 2021
Nick McCarthy(26/St. Michaels/UCD) - signed contact in 2021

Jamison Gibson Park suffered an untimely injury at the business end of last season which caused him to miss some very big games, his injury underlined the lack of a quality third scrumhalf in the leinster squad that the coaches trusted to play. Parks injury meant Luke McGrath was forced to play a lot of rugby last season, appearing 24 times for leinster with 19 starts(1451 minutes), meaning he was a key player for leinster last season, as has often been the case over the 5 past seasons. That duo have been good enough to win a european cup before, can they again? Finally Nick McCarthy returns from spending two seasons with Munster, the former ireland u20 captain is an upgrade on the now departed young 9's, Rowan Osborne(Munster)/Hugh O'Sullivan(London Irish), but can he push Park or McGrath for their place in leinsters strongest 23 or will he just be a reliable third option?



Academy
Cormac Foley(21/St. Gerards/Lansdowne) - Academy Yr 3
Ben Murphy(20/Pres Bray/Old Wesley) - Academy Yr 1

A problem position for the Leinster academy for several years, Paddy Patterson has switched to the Munster Academy after going on loan last season, meanwhile Cormac Foley moved into his final year in the academy. Foley is inexperienced in the position only focusing full time on it since joining the academy, his pass was simply not good enough when I saw him in action last year. He is joined in the academy by Ben Murphy, who spent some of last season with Munster, Murphy was unlucky to miss out on the irish u20 6 nations due to injury. The son of former leinster coach and current irish u20 coach, Richie Murphy, is a solid if unspectacular option at 9. Are either the answer to Leinster's issues developing a top class 9? I'd be surprised. Might Leinster have lost the most talented scrumhalf of three? Quite possibly.

[ronk]

We spent 2 1/2 years trying to accelerate development of a workable 3rd choice scrumhalf. We failed.

McCarthy was starting to hit form relatively in the late stage of his Munster stint. Hopefully he carries that and builds on it. Because scrumhalves can usually play 80 minutes week in week out 3 is a good panel. I wonder if a more patient approach will favour Foley, if not Leinster appear well placed to skip a generation of academy players and try figuring out later how to develop scrumhalves.

[joooooe]

Is 9 the only position where Leinster have failed to develop a top level player since professionalism came in? It's been said before, but the pathway for scrumhalves in Leinster must be flawed in some way.

[mildlyinterested]

Is 9 the only position where Leinster have failed to develop a top level player since professionalism came in? It's been said before, but the pathway for scrumhalves in Leinster must be flawed in some way.

IMO some recent young leinster scrumhalves simply don't play enough rugby at 9 between the ages of 18 and 22 to develop decision making required for the top level... others haven't had good enough core skills to be a top level 9.

There is an issue in the development pathway for sure.

[joooooe]

Is 9 the only position where Leinster have failed to develop a top level player since professionalism came in? It's been said before, but the pathway for scrumhalves in Leinster must be flawed in some way.

IMO some recent young leinster scrumhalves simply don't play enough rugby at 9 between the ages of 18 and 22 to develop decision making required for the top level... others haven't had good enough core skills to be a top level 9.

There is an issue in the development pathway for sure.

It probably highlights one of the problems with the academy system (which, on balance, is a very good way to produce professional players). If you are good enough aged 18/19/20 you will be selected to go into an academy, where you will receive wonderful coaching but play fewer matches. For a scrumhalf, matches might actually be what you need, whereas for a prop, coaching and top-level training might be what you need.

Do you know if there is any distinction made between positions regarding release to AIL? A change as simple as this could be the difference between producing URC-level 9s and test-level 9s.

[ronk]

Is 9 the only position where Leinster have failed to develop a top level player since professionalism came in? It's been said before, but the pathway for scrumhalves in Leinster must be flawed in some way.

12. But because it's not a specialist position we were able to move good players there.

[ronk]

Luke McGrath is good.

The academy produced talent, it just withered on the vine. Leinster play a system where we'll rotate anywhere fine but fall apart if we don't have confidence in our scrumhalf. It's such a hard position for us, so hard that our scrumhalves are better than we think they are.

It was unusual that we went for a McGrath/ PJH panel when we did. Even then we didn't trust McGrath enough to not to market for a big project. If you look at the scrumhalves we signed we were willing to play guys who were losing pace but we didn't do inexperience.

So it's harder to get a chance because we rotate less and we have a premium on long service.

McGrath got extra chances because he was an underage star and it was well lined up for him with Reddan and Boss able to mentor him and allow a safe introduction.

Munster were forced to accelerate Casey when we tried to sign him (losing a talented player would be more humiliating than us getting a 5th star), they were half stuck when Matthewson had to leave and there was no risk of blowback over ditching McCarthy.

[mildlyinterested]

Luke McGrath is good.

The academy produced talent, it just withered on the vine. Leinster play a system where we'll rotate anywhere fine but fall apart if we don't have confidence in our scrumhalf. It's such a hard position for us, so hard that our scrumhalves are better than we think they are.

It was unusual that we went for a McGrath/ PJH panel when we did. Even then we didn't trust McGrath enough to not to market for a big project. If you look at the scrumhalves we signed we were willing to play guys who were losing pace but we didn't do inexperience.

So it's harder to get a chance because we rotate less and we have a premium on long service.

McGrath got extra chances because he was an underage star and it was well lined up for him with Reddan and Boss able to mentor him and allow a safe introduction.

Munster were forced to accelerate Casey when we tried to sign him (losing a talented player would be more humiliating than us getting a 5th star), they were half stuck when Matthewson had to leave and there was no risk of blowback over ditching McCarthy.

Luke McGrath is good but he still has an issue with his pass at the highest level. McGrath was trusted young as he was a good decision maker at a young age, his biggest issue was always his pass, something he improved but has never gotten to an elite level.

If leinster had a talent like Casey or Doak in the academy they'd get plenty of gametime.. but leinster rugby haven't produced a 9 with that level of talent since probably.. Ciaran Scally. A notable point on both Casey and Doak is that they are both are sons of coaches who played 9.

After that there was the mess with Cooney and MOC, resulting in him playing and developing into an excellent 9 elsewhere.

Then there has been the recent inability to develop 9's that have came through the underage system and into the academy. Someone like Hughie was identified by the system at a very young age, joined the academy straight from school and then barely played 9 in meaningful games at any level while at leinster, consequently his development stalled and his lack of gametime at the position, not playing 9 in school, became a huge issue.

I'll be interested to see how Patterson gets on in Munster, could easily turn into another situation where leinster look foolish when it comes to scrumhalf talent development.

[ronk]

Our long history of signing 9s works against us in terms of having coaches. I'd actually sign a high level ex player as a skills coach with some academy duties. Most of the obvious candidates have moved onto other things or are already doing well.

We'd probably need to look further afield.

Having lost McNamara we might have room.

[mildlyinterested]

Our long history of signing 9s works against us in terms of having coaches. I'd actually sign a high level ex player as a skills coach with some academy duties. Most of the obvious candidates have moved onto other things or are already doing well.

We'd probably need to look further afield.

Having lost McNamara we might have room.

we've lost McNamara and Hugh Hogan.

Leinsters skills 1 to 15 aren't as good as they used to be, unfortunately. Nor do we play with the same ambition, this may be down to new rules and how the game is refed but leinster are a team that looks to physically dominant you and go through you, if you stop that you generally stop this leinster rugby team. Luckily there are very few teams that can stop that, but that means that often when they face a side that can, they don't have the skills/ability to adapt and overcome.

[ronk]

Lots of ex- scrumhalves made good coaches. Contact skills is too important to neglect, I think we'd want a specialist. So my thinking is 2 coaches.

The best move for Leinster is usually to do something different and unconventional when it comes to coaching structure. Let's face it, I'm a little bit nervous that Contepomi is the one telling our scrumhalves how to play. But maybe it's a good thing, any scrumhalf who could figure out where Contepomi was going to be could manage any system.

[arsebiscuits1]

Tom Tierney spent a bit of time in Munster as an EPDO in recent years and seemed to focus exclusively on scrumhalves.

As a person on the inside said to me... "he just kind of rounds up the academy and sub academy scrum halves and gets them to f%~k medicine balls at each other for an hour"

Obviously a humorous oversimplification but Casey would have been in that group at that time and the benefits there are evident.

Munster coaching isn't something I'd be looking to emanate. But specialist coaching for specialist positions by those with specialist experience seems a no brainer for me

[joooooe]

Could Leinster hire Frank Murphy as a specialist scrumhalf coach? Whatever about his ability as a coach it would remove him from the league roster of referees.

[mildlyinterested]

Could Leinster hire Frank Murphy as a specialist scrumhalf coach? Whatever about his ability as a coach it would remove him from the league roster of referees.

Peter Stringer be a better idea if we are trying to get underage and academy scrumhalves pass to improve.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Could Leinster hire Frank Murphy as a specialist scrumhalf coach? Whatever about his ability as a coach it would remove him from the league roster of referees.

[ronk]

Could Leinster hire Frank Murphy as a specialist scrumhalf coach? Whatever about his ability as a coach it would remove him from the league roster of referees.

Peter Stringer be a better idea if we are trying to get underage and academy scrumhalves pass to improve.

Stringer is the problem.

He’s the embodiment of the idea that a scrum half can do 1 on none passing drills all the way to the top.

The automatic assumption for any underachieving scrum half is that they aren’t staying late enough after training working on their pass.

To break the cycle we need to import an outside coach. Someone who played all their career outside Ireland would be ideal. But maybe someone like Mathewson.

Reddan learnt a lot at Wasps and improved hugely. Hart looked better in France. Cooney showed promise but failed at 2 provinces and was an instant success taking over Pienaar’s role.

Stringer might have the work ethic to be a good coach. But the game moved on a long time ago now. He might also be expensive.

We need to be able to set an up tempo game when we want, e.g. by taking more tap penalties, by having a breaking threat, by anticipating line breaks.

[Ruckedtobits]

Six years ago (2015) the Leinster Academy Board identified the need to appoint a specialist scrum-half Coach. The appointment was vetoed by the IRFU, supposedly because of the precedent it would establish. It was a short sighted decision, but that is how the IRFU operates.

I still belief such an appointment would be appropriate and ideally the role could be extended by an appointment with dual focus on half-backs. As an appropriate candidate, Pierre Mignoni has demonstrated his expertise in this area and there are a number of former French half-backs, and credible language skills, with international experience in both positions.

The role might be a Consultancy appointment, rather than a full-time role and an annual fee of c.€40k for 120 hours (10 hours per month). would secure the required services.

As for the contention that Leinster are a team that must dominate up-front to secure victory, I disagree and suggest that there are a number of examples since the advent of Stuart Lancaster which disprove this hypothesis.

[mildlyinterested]

Six years ago (2015) the Leinster Academy Board identified the need to appoint a specialist scrum-half Coach. The appointment was vetoed by the IRFU, supposedly because of the precedent it would establish. It was a short sighted decision, but that is how the IRFU operates.

I still belief such an appointment would be appropriate and ideally the role could be extended by an appointment with dual focus on half-backs. As an appropriate candidate, Pierre Mignoni has demonstrated his expertise in this area and there are a number of former French half-backs, and credible language skills, with international experience in both positions.

The role might be a Consultancy appointment, rather than a full-time role and an annual fee of c.€40k for 120 hours (10 hours per month). would secure the required services.

As for the contention that Leinster are a team that must dominate up-front to secure victory, I disagree and suggest that there are a number of examples since the advent of Stuart Lancaster which disprove this hypothesis.

Unfortunately those performances didn't occur in the most important game of the season, twice against Saracens and against La Rochelle.

Leinster were found wanting when they didn't have superiority up front, it's the blueprint, leinster are fortunate that few sides have the size/power to do that, but until they find an answer to that issue the 5th star will remain elusive.

A specialist scrum-half coach would be great but will it happen given the financial restraints?

Also not sure 10 hours a month would solve the issue, which is multi pronged at underage and academy level.

[mildlyinterested]

Looking ahead these are the scrumhalf prospects coming through the system:

U20
Conor Duggan(Castleknock)
Michael Moloney(Blackrock)
Oisin Devitt(Clongowes)
Seanan Devereux(St. Marys)

Unclear who the standout in this group is, i'd lean towards Duggan but there has been so little rugby played it's hard to call.

U19
Fintan Gunne(St. Michaels)
Oscar Cawley(Naas RFC)
Culann Carbery(Athy RFC)
Conor Tracey(St. Marys)

Gunne and Cawley have been rotating for the 19's so far these interpros.

U18 Schools
Patrick Byrne(Temple Carrig)
Tadhg Brophy(Newbridge)
Oliver Coffey(Blackrock)

Byrne and Brophy trained with the 18's last season too, wait and see who of the three get the 1st start against Ulster.

U18 Clubs
Andrew Doyle(Athy RFC)
Jack Nolan(Lansdowne)
Dylan Kelly(Portlaoise RFC)

Doyle has started both clubs games.

[mildlyinterested]

Rob Gilsenan was starting 9 for UCD at the weekend...