The Leinster Front Row preview 2021/22

[wixfjord]

At what cost.
I'd like to see a proper cost benefit analysis done on the basis of the depth for both positions.
what do we gain, what do we lose. Who would be our bench TH and if Furlong got injured or left Ireland then what.

Do you think they're not doing that?

[wixfjord]

Re coaches, does anyone really think Andy Farrell should be making any decisions about the future positions of any of our forwards?

Honest answers only please…

Any decision will be made in tandem with a range of stakeholders, Farrell, national team coaches, Leinster's brains trust and obviously the player and his agent.

It's not like Farrell is just going to click his fingers.

And he's in a much better place to make a decision than 'journos after a boozy lunch or fans on forums' as FLIP says.

[ronk]

But I have zero respect for people who ignore the other side completely. To just keep repeating that it's a stupid idea is just childish and doesn't help your argument if you're not providing any substance to it. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just trying to get people to see the other POV.

Moving a Lion's tighthead to loosehead is highly irregular. It's up to the people who want to do it to put across a clear and coherent argument. And some strong arguments have been raised against it that you have conveniently ignored. Most of them are based around analysis of squads based on 23 players being used on a game day. Sure if you limit it to only looking at first XVs and you want to wait for a narrow window of time after the next RWC when Healy and Kilcoyne are likely to be finishing up and while Furlong is 30 but still going strong.

But all of that is secondary, this issue has been raised often by a vocal minority and has been discussed to death. The strongest argument I have is that I have seen him play many times and genuinely think he's a better tighthead. I was surprised when he moved and even more surprised at the speed he adapted. He's at home. Kinda like the way Shane Horgan was a specialist winger at the end of his career and anyone who hadn't seen him play centre would have never thought of moving him there.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

But I have zero respect for people who ignore the other side completely. To just keep repeating that it's a stupid idea is just childish and doesn't help your argument if you're not providing any substance to it. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just trying to get people to see the other POV.

Moving a Lion's tighthead to loosehead is highly irregular. It's up to the people who want to do it to put across a clear and coherent argument. And some strong arguments have been raised against it that you have conveniently ignored. Most of them are based around analysis of squads based on 23 players being used on a game day. Sure if you limit it to only looking at first XVs and you want to wait for a narrow window of time after the next RWC when Healy and Kilcoyne are likely to be finishing up and while Furlong is 30 but still going strong.

But all of that is secondary, this issue has been raised often by a vocal minority and has been discussed to death. The strongest argument I have is that I have seen him play many times and genuinely think he's a better tighthead. I was surprised when he moved and even more surprised at the speed he adapted. He's at home. Kinda like the way Shane Horgan was a specialist winger at the end of his career and anyone who hadn't seen him play centre would have never thought of moving him there.

I’ve ignored arguments against it? Are you for real? I’ve said there’s pros and cons, said I have no issue with him staying there, and said I have concerns myself. Not only have I acknowledged the concerns, I’ve added to them.

I see both sides and have no issue with people thinking he shouldn’t move and have said that several times. So no, I haven’t ignored anything.

And I certainly haven’t narrowed my analysis based on first 15s and a narrow window of time. I’ve spoken about how Porter might want to be a starter and how this move could benefit him for 7/8 years. I’ve looked at the big picture, that’s the point, others haven’t.

[ronk]

Saying that there's no substance to an opposing argument that has been made in detail might fairly be seen as ignoring the other side. It maybe wasn't helpful to do so at the same time as both
complaining about being ignored and calling people who disagreed with you childish.

You specifically called out Porter starting in the same paragraph that you denied being focused about the 15 at the expense of the 23. If he moved it would be an unmitigated failure if he wasn't a starter for an extended time for Ireland. For 20 years Ireland have had 1 tighthead to start 6N games and they've achieved that with 3 players: Hayes, Ross and Furlong. There's always been a gap in the depth chart and it's been a consistent thorn in the Irish teams side. Finally we actually have a 2nd option, one who was in line to be a test Lion, a level that Hayes and Ross never reached. Let's enjoy the depth while we have it. We're actually alright at loosehead.

We're not really sure which side the next elite prop is going to show up on (Boyle has potential), so it's hard to say that Porter will get a run on one side. We could just be walking into a situation where Ireland have 2 elite looseheads and no tightheads. That 7-8 years might only be 4, with the first 2 being questionable because we'll weaken the squad while Kilcoyne and Healy are still performing (~2 years).

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Saying that there's no substance to an opposing argument that has been made in detail might fairly be seen as ignoring the other side. It maybe wasn't helpful to do so at the same time as both
complaining about being ignored and calling people who disagreed with you childish.

You specifically called out Porter starting in the same paragraph that you denied being focused about the 15 at the expense of the 23. If he moved it would be an unmitigated failure if he wasn't a starter for an extended time for Ireland. For 20 years Ireland have had 1 tighthead to start 6N games and they've achieved that with 3 players: Hayes, Ross and Furlong. There's always been a gap in the depth chart and it's been a consistent thorn in the Irish teams side. Finally we actually have a 2nd option, one who was in line to be a test Lion, a level that Hayes and Ross never reached. Let's enjoy the depth while we have it. We're actually alright at loosehead.

We're not really sure which side the next elite prop is going to show up on (Boyle has potential), so it's hard to say that Porter will get a run on one side. We could just be walking into a situation where Ireland have 2 elite looseheads and no tightheads. That 7-8 years might only be 4, with the first 2 being questionable because we'll weaken the squad while Kilcoyne and Healy are still performing (~2 years).

Spoofer’s argument didn’t have any substance and it was childish. His starting point was that it was ridiculous anyone would even suggest a move, said it made zero sense (Ignoring the previous posts supporting it), and then made the comparison with trading Messi for Harry Maguire. There’s substance to the argument itself, but certainly not in the posts by Flip and Spoofer.

WRT to the comment about being focused on the starting 15, I was saying that Porter’s feelings around being a starter might be worth taking into account, not that me thinking he should start is the be all and end all I.e look at the big picture and not just take a Nucifora approach to treating players like chess pieces.

WRT to the bit about it potentially being an unmitigated disaster. That’s hyperbole, he can move back you know, but also I have acknowledged it’s a risk so not sure why you’re trying to convince me of something I’ve already said I agree with. I think the risk is worth the potential benefits, yourself Flip and Spoofer refuse to even acknowledge that there ARE potential benefits.

The long term ifs and buts are too complicated to get into. We know that right now we have a top class prop spending too much time on the bench (behind a guy who is only 3 years older btw) and might improve the physicality issue we’ve had in so many games since 2018 by getting them to play together from the start. Having that POV is not stupid or ridiculous in any way shape or form.

[Dave Cahill]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

[the spoofer]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Loose Head/ Tight Head. Sure what’s the difference?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Yeah so it might not work, or may not even happen. I’ve acknowledged that so not sure what point you’re making.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Loose Head/ Tight Head. Sure what’s the difference?

Big difference really. The tighthead scrummages against the opposite loosehead and hooker working in tandem and vice versa.

Difficult thing to play both sides but we have a top class player who never starts and we’ve had a physicality problem over the last two and a bit years so perhaps he could switch over to the loosehead side and improve things. He has experience there and some coaches have mentioned it as possibility. I’m intrigued by the possibility and think it’s a risk worth taking.

Hope that helps.

[the spoofer]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Loose Head/ Tight Head. Sure what’s the difference?

Big difference really. The tighthead scrummages against the opposite loosehead and hooker working in tandem and vice versa.

Difficult thing to play both sides but we have a top class player who never starts and we’ve had a physicality problem over the last two and a bit years so perhaps he could switch over to the loosehead side and improve things. He has experience there and some coaches have mentioned it as possibility. I’m intrigued by the possibility and think it’s a risk worth taking.

Hope that helps.

I played TH for close on 23 years sonny. I don’t really need an explanation thanks.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

So your issue is more with your self importance than him moving across? Good to know, and I’ll assume your next childish reply doesn’t actually want a reply in good faith and not bother them.

[backrower8]

Let's get back to the fact that, regardless of what we think, one year ago the Irish coaching team, including the scrum coach Fogarty, 100% intended trying to move Porter back to LH. My conviction on this is derived from the fact that I was told by someone in pro rugby who is very close to Fogarty.

Since then the relevant events are:

1. Furlong had a long term injury and Porter put in a serious shift at TH for Ireland and Leinster that developed him in that position and raised his value and culminated in a Lions selection.

2. Leinster signed an elite class TH, in Ala'alatoa, spending serious and scarce budget in the process. To think that we eschewed the opportunity to shore up our callow and ageing 2nd row stocks, which had a lot to do with our loss to La Rochelle, in order to have 3 elite class THs is highly unlikely.

3. Healy's graph has fallen significantly in the last 12 months, particularly as a starter in international or knockout HC matches, while there has been very little development in the LH stocks with O'Sullivan making his first tentative steps towards the summit.

I remain of the opinion that an attempt to transition Porter will be made.

As an aside, reference has been made to 'a minority' here who speak positively about the prospect of Porter transitioning. It seems to me that there is a pretty even split between the two camps on this debate.

I suggest that we park this and let the chips fall as they may because there is no progress being made or new information being offered, its just descending into a disrespectful and bitter thread.

[Oldschoolsocks]

.

[FLIP]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Yeah so it might not work, or may not even happen. I’ve acknowledged that so not sure what point you’re making.

It's not that it might not work. It's that it's much more difficult and far less of a sure thing of success than you and a lot of others make it out to be, and the possible outcomes of failure are far worse than you seriously acknowledge.

If he succeeds (and success is that he makes the switch and is a Lion's top 2 LH and Irelands undisputed first choice, anything less is a failure) then I'd be extremely glad for him, and if Leinster and Ireland don't suffer because of it then that's also good.

[ronk]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Bit like that Carbery fella being a break-glass scrumhalf. Again let the Ireland squad have extra depth elsewhere for the RWC.

Not a realistic suggestion for a career move.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

Bit like that Carbery fella being a break-glass scrumhalf. Again let the Ireland squad have extra depth elsewhere for the RWC.

Not a realistic suggestion for a career move.

It’s not really like that at all though.

You may have been too busy watching Greg McGrath tear it up at Connacht to notice this recently but this would be a good example fo how it might work. This guy hadn’t played loosehead for ages and then moved across to destroy the Lions scrum and turn the series around.

https://www.sarugby.co.za/news-features ... loosehead/

[Peg Leg]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

And at the time it was his provincial specialist coach, that pushed for the move across. That same coach now happens to be Porter's current international specialist coach. I can see why people see this as a quick fix that could play out well, but I think the downside is too great.

[wixfjord]

A propos of nothing, this discussion is about a chap who has one start, lasting 46 minutes, 5 years ago, as a senior professional loosehead.

Carry on.

And, of course, a number of years playing LH in his youth as well, including an excellent showing in a Junior RWC. Like he's a LH by trade.

You've said before that he struggled to get past Dooley/Byrne when he was LH, which is not exactly correct.

Porter played 1 season of LH at pro level when he was 20/21 (his first season) and got 200 mins of gametime.

Dooley (who is 2.5 years older and was in his third year out of the academy) got 600 mins that year and Byrne got less than 50 due to injury.

[riocard911]

Let's get back to the fact that, regardless of what we think, one year ago the Irish coaching team, including the scrum coach Fogarty, 100% intended trying to move Porter back to LH. My conviction on this is derived from the fact that I was told by someone in pro rugby who is very close to Fogarty.

Since then the relevant events are:

1. Furlong had a long term injury and Porter put in a serious shift at TH for Ireland and Leinster that developed him in that position and raised his value and culminated in a Lions selection.

2. Leinster signed an elite class TH, in Ala'alatoa, spending serious and scarce budget in the process. To think that we eschewed the opportunity to shore up our callow and ageing 2nd row stocks, which had a lot to do with our loss to La Rochelle, in order to have 3 elite class THs is highly unlikely.

3. Healy's graph has fallen significantly in the last 12 months, particularly as a starter in international or knockout HC matches, while there has been very little development in the LH stocks with O'Sullivan making his first tentative steps towards the summit.

I remain of the opinion that an attempt to transition Porter will be made.

As an aside, reference has been made to 'a minority' here who speak positively about the prospect of Porter transitioning. It seems to me that there is a pretty even split between the two camps on this debate.

I suggest that we park this and let the chips fall as they may because there is no progress being made or new information being offered, its just descending into a disrespectful and bitter thread.

+1 (speaking as a life member of the front-row union)