The Leinster Front Row preview 2021/22

[FLIP]

Porter would be seriously ill advised by those around him if he moved to LH. A potentially career damaging move vs being one of the two best THs in the NH. The idea needs to head off with the rest of the silly season nonsense.

Why do you keep saying this is 'silly season' nonsense or media/fan driven?

Whether you agree with it or not, it has been discussed by both Leinster & Irish coaches.

Because I struggle to believe the Leinster coaching staff are that stupid. It's a stupid idea of the sort usually cooked up by journos after a boozy lunch or fans on forums. The practicalities and risks of it are clear.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I find this so tedious. I’ve said this a good few times now but I totally understand why people would be against the move and if the various coaches involved see it as not being viable for whatever reason (no THs stepping up in the last 2 years being a big one) then so be it. But to think that it’s a ridiculous idea to move him across and flat out ignore the potential upside is a really really poor way to argue the case for staying put.

This argument also always ignores the fact that Porter is likely to prefer being a starter than a perennial sub. He was outstanding while Furlong was injured but then dropped immediately when he returned.

I also don’t agree with the money argument. I can’t imagine he’d move across without ensuring that his salary won’t plummet, surely people realise that himself and his agent would think to check this first? I would actually argue that a starting LH who is also high up on the depth chart for TH could ask for a bigger salary than someone who is going to be a constant backup until the first choice guy retires and covering LH the odd time.

[the spoofer]

TH is the most important player on the pitch. LH's are not. There is a reason why top class TH's (of which Porter is one) get paid oodles of cash. Furlong could be off next year and then what do we do? It makes zero sense for Ireland, Leinster or Porter for him to move. I'd be shocked if, in the current scenario, it's considered.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

“Zero sense”...utter nonsense.

There are pros and cons. Some would go for it, some wouldn’t...but “zero sense”? Rubbish.

[wixfjord]

Porter would be seriously ill advised by those around him if he moved to LH. A potentially career damaging move vs being one of the two best THs in the NH. The idea needs to head off with the rest of the silly season nonsense.

Why do you keep saying this is 'silly season' nonsense or media/fan driven?

Whether you agree with it or not, it has been discussed by both Leinster & Irish coaches.

Because I struggle to believe the Leinster coaching staff are that stupid. It's a stupid idea of the sort usually cooked up by journos after a boozy lunch or fans on forums. The practicalities and risks of it are clear.

Well you better believe it then! Like have you just ignored the fact that this has been talked about for quite a while and isn't just something that has been 'cooked up'?!

https://www.otbsports.com/sport/ireland ... ow-1112584
https://www.the42.ie/andrew-porter-tigh ... 9-Mar2021/

The practicalities and risks of it are clear absolutely, as are the potential upsides.

You've one opinion, and that's fine. But it's something that has been discussed by Farrell, McBryde et al.

[ronk]

There's also things specific to Porter.

He was a recognised talent at loosehead but he made the switch fast, really fast. He actually progressed faster (IMO) than he was as a loosehead. When a move goes that well, that fast it's a strong indicator that they they weren't in the best place to start off.

He played a long time ago at loosehead and by using him as an emergency loosehead we were able to bring an extra player in a different position (centre I think) at the RWC. If it was felt that he'd easily move across he would have been doing it more often.

He's a strong mobile tighthead. They are rare and valuable. As a loosehead he's not remarkably mobile, he's probably way off in terms of being a dominant attacking loosehead.

Put him at loosehead with an immobile tighthead and you have lost the action at tighthead and possibly lost something at loosehead. Leave him at tighthead and you can compensate for a slightly less mobile loosehead if you want to prioritize scrums or you can survive with a loose loosehead and make hay in the loose.

The use case for moving relies on us being well stocked at tighthead (we won't be if he moves) and him being a dominant loosehead who obliterates opposition (basically saying that he was wasted at tighthead). Or we are so stuck at loosehead that we need drastic action. 50 caps for Archer level crisis. If anyone believed that then the Irish coaching team need to be sacked right now in a way that ends their careers for letting Cronin be cut.

[wixfjord]

TH is the most important player on the pitch. LH's are not. There is a reason why top class TH's (of which Porter is one) get paid oodles of cash. Furlong could be off next year and then what do we do? It makes zero sense for Ireland, Leinster or Porter for him to move. I'd be shocked if, in the current scenario, it's considered.

I mean that's totally untrue.

Not sure why there's so much dogma around this discussion!

I don't think anyone is saying it's a sure thing that he'll acclimatise back to LH, or that it's not a risk.

The decision won't be taken lightly but there are absolutely upsides for all three parties.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

There's also things specific to Porter.

He was a recognised talent at loosehead but he made the switch fast, really fast. He actually progressed faster (IMO) than he was as a loosehead. When a move goes that well, that fast it's a strong indicator that they they weren't in the best place to start off.

He played a long time ago at loosehead and by using him as an emergency loosehead we were able to bring an extra player in a different position (centre I think) at the RWC. If it was felt that he'd easily move across he would have been doing it more often.

He played in the 2016 JWC and then made his debut for Ireland in EDIT: June 2017, what is it about the time pre TH between those two events (a total of maybe 6 months or so?) make you think he wasn't progressing well at LH? I would imagine that part of his progression was based on potential and the need for him to be ready for the World Cup (where it would have also been factored in that he could cover both sides by then) as opposed to how well he was actually doing at TH.

As for the bit about moving him across more often if he'd been good enough. Furlong was injured for ages so he was needed at TH and Healy was still top class in 2018 and comfortably first choice in 2019 when we were also trying to get Jack McGrath back to top form a year after he'd been a Lion and a year out from the World Cup. So I don't really see when he should have been moving across.

[ronk]

He made the switch to tighthead in 2017. He was still wearing 17 in Feb 2017. He took under 3 months to train, made a good debut for Leinster at tighthead and was into the Irish team that summer and a Leinster regular soon after.

I've seen people bolt; James Ryan played for Ireland before he played for Leinster due to unusual circumstances. But to bolt while making probably the hardest positional switch in rugby, I'm still surprised that it actually was possible. It's astonishing.

Only a few months ago he was picked to the Lions tour while Shinkler was left at home, initially.

His ability to slide across against RWC minnows was a party trick to bring 1 less prop to the RWC. It's never been taken seriously by a coach such as Leo, Joe, Faz, Gatland. Back in 2018 we knew how old Healy would be in 2021. McGrath faded but Kilcoyne had an Indian summer and O'Sullivan has appeared on the radar. On the tighthead side Abdeladze has been stalled by injury. Moore was brought back but hasn't reached his previous level. So the tighthead depth position is worse than expected while the loosehead situation is about even.

Even if you disagree about the loosehead situation and think it's a disaster about to happen, why aren't people up in arms about Cronin leaving. He's abrasive, strong and a good scrummager. He's not the best loosehead in the loose, but that's okay if that's where people think the gap is.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

He made the switch to tighthead in 2017. He was still wearing 17 in Feb 2017. He took under 3 months to train, made a good debut for Leinster at tighthead and was into the Irish team that summer and a Leinster regular soon after.

That doesn't address my point. What was it about the pre Feb 2017 performances at LH make you think he wasn't developing as well/quickly as he did when he moved to TH? Porter, Ryan, and Stockdale were all fast tracked because they were huge talents who would be top class by the time the World Cup came around, it really wasn't a case of Porter tearing it up at TH that he couldn't be ignored.

I've seen people bolt; James Ryan played for Ireland before he played for Leinster due to unusual circumstances. But to bolt while making probably the hardest positional switch in rugby, I'm still surprised that it actually was possible. It's astonishing.

Sure...but that's completely irrelevant to his potential ability at LH.

Only a few months ago he was picked to the Lions tour while Shinkler was left at home, initially.

And for the next one he could well be the starting LH

His ability to slide across against RWC minnows was a party trick to bring 1 less prop to the RWC. It's never been taken seriously by a coach such as Leo, Joe, Faz, Gatland. Back in 2018 we knew how old Healy would be in 2021. McGrath faded but Kilcoyne had an Indian summer and O'Sullivan has appeared on the radar. On the tighthead side Abdeladze has been stalled by injury. Moore was brought back but hasn't reached his previous level. So the tighthead depth position is worse than expected while the loosehead situation is about even.

Huh? Party trick? It was sensible planning that a guy who had played LH two and a half years out from the WC could cover there if needed when you have to pick a limited squad. Never taken seriously by the coaches? He hasn't been a dual prop so what was to be taken seriously? They played him at TH because he had made the move to TH. I'm sure he's moved across a few times when needed but that's about the extent of what could be expected. If a guy with such limited time in the 3 jersey (until Furlong's long term injury) had also been double jobbing on the other side then that would have hampered him on both sides. And if you're arguing that the TH depth was poor why would you think the coaches thought about moving him across and decided not to based on ability rather the lack of depth?

Even if you disagree about the loosehead situation and think it's a disaster about to happen, why aren't people up in arms about Cronin leaving. He's abrasive, strong and a good scrummager. He's not the best loosehead in the loose, but that's okay if that's where people think the gap is.
Because he wasn't very good? His best reviews came when it was announced that he was leaving. Cronin is irrelevant when it comes to Porter, you're talking about a potential first choice LH for the next 7/8 years not moving because a 30 year old journeyman with 3 caps wasn't kept around to sit on Munster's bench.

[the spoofer]

“Zero sense”...utter nonsense.

There are pros and cons. Some would go for it, some wouldn’t...but “zero sense”? Rubbish.

It's utter nonsense to move a world class TH to LH. It's the equivalent of trading Messi for Harry Maguire. You can survive with an ok loosehead, you can't with an ok TH.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

“Zero sense”...utter nonsense.

There are pros and cons. Some would go for it, some wouldn’t...but “zero sense”? Rubbish.

It's utter nonsense to move a world class TH to LH. It's the equivalent of trading Messi for Harry Maguire. You can survive with an ok loosehead, you can't with an ok TH.

No it's the equivalent of Messi being on the bench behind Mbappé and then realising that if you play him in midfield he could start and play at the top level for another 5 years.

Hard to take your argument seriously or in good faith when you're ignoring everything said by the other side and making spurious comparisons.

[the spoofer]

“Zero sense”...utter nonsense.

There are pros and cons. Some would go for it, some wouldn’t...but “zero sense”? Rubbish.

It's utter nonsense to move a world class TH to LH. It's the equivalent of trading Messi for Harry Maguire. You can survive with an ok loosehead, you can't with an ok TH.

No it's the equivalent of Messi being on the bench behind Mbappé and then realising that if you play him in midfield he could start and play at the top level for another 5 years.

Hard to take your argument seriously or in good faith when you're ignoring everything said by the other side and making spurious comparisons.

In fairness it's hard to take anyone's argument seriously when they are actually considering moving a world class TH to LH. It's also the case that Porter won't sit on the bench, he will play at least 30 minutes of the serious games and what happens if TF decides to take the Toulouse €1m a year cash next year? Do we move Porter back?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

What happens if Porter is pissed off at not starting and Toulouse offer him big money? Will he be happy being a sub until Furlong leaves or retires? Then we're f%~ked on both sides.

Again, I totally respect someone for weighing up both sides and deciding that on balance Porter should stick to TH. I'm pretty sure I was the first person to suggest the move on here and have been banging the drum for about two years I think, and yet even I can see the risks involved, and am less certain myself after the progress of other THs stalled.

But I have zero respect for people who ignore the other side completely. To just keep repeating that it's a stupid idea is just childish and doesn't help your argument if you're not providing any substance to it. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just trying to get people to see the other POV.

[wixfjord]

In fairness it's hard to take anyone's argument seriously when they are actually considering moving a world class TH to LH.

Farrell & Robyn McBryde then wouldn't agree.

[Oldschool]

In fairness it's hard to take anyone's argument seriously when they are actually considering moving a world class TH to LH.

Farrell & Robyn McBryde then wouldn't agree.

Very few people doubt that Porter could make the transition back to to LH but that's not the issue.
People who take a very short view of things (that's the job they are in) are not necessarily the best people to make a judgment on Porter.
Where would have been if Porter had been playing LH for a season, Furlough pulled the injury did and then we were looking at moving our world class LH back to his old position.

[wixfjord]

In fairness it's hard to take anyone's argument seriously when they are actually considering moving a world class TH to LH.

Farrell & Robyn McBryde then wouldn't agree.

Very few people doubt that Porter could make the transition back to to LH but that's not the issue.
People who take a very short view of things (that's the job they are in) are not necessarily the best people to make a judgment on Porter.
Where would have been if Porter had been playing LH for a season, Furlough pulled the injury did and then we were looking at moving our world class LH back to his old position.

If he were to make the (admittedly risky) move, it could guarantee Ireland and Leinster's LH for best part of a decade.

That's not a short view.

I would think coaches who seem him every day are exactly the best people to make a judgement on him too.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Re coaches, does anyone really think Andy Farrell should be making any decisions about the future positions of any of our forwards?

Honest answers only please…

[Oldschool]

Farrell & Robyn McBryde then wouldn't agree.

Very few people doubt that Porter could make the transition back to to LH but that's not the issue.
People who take a very short view of things (that's the job they are in) are not necessarily the best people to make a judgment on Porter.
Where would have been if Porter had been playing LH for a season, Furlough pulled the injury did and then we were looking at moving our world class LH back to his old position.

If he were to make the (admittedly risky) move, it could guarantee Ireland and Leinster's LH for best part of a decade.

That's not a short view.

I would think coaches who seem him every day are exactly the best people to make a judgement on him too.

At what cost.
I'd like to see a proper cost benefit analysis done on the basis of the depth for both positions.
what do we gain, what do we lose. Who would be our bench TH and if Furlong got injured or left Ireland then what.

[mildlyinterested]

Very few people doubt that Porter could make the transition back to to LH but that's not the issue.
People who take a very short view of things (that's the job they are in) are not necessarily the best people to make a judgment on Porter.
Where would have been if Porter had been playing LH for a season, Furlough pulled the injury did and then we were looking at moving our world class LH back to his old position.

If he were to make the (admittedly risky) move, it could guarantee Ireland and Leinster's LH for best part of a decade.

That's not a short view.

I would think coaches who seem him every day are exactly the best people to make a judgement on him too.

At what cost.
I'd like to see a proper cost benefit analysis done on the basis of the depth for both positions.
what do we gain, what do we lose. Who would be our bench TH and if Furlong got injured or left Ireland then what.

they signed the bench TH in Mike A, captain of Samoa and starting TH for the Crusaders for multiple seasons.