Enforcer Second-Row Options

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Logorrhea
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Logorrhea »

backrower8 wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 3:59 pm
Leo has shown his propensity as a coach to go for overseas signings - Lowe, Fardy, Alaalatoa
If you are looking for a character trait, surely you should be looking at his propensity to rely on local talent and bring them system? 57 (?) players used this year.

I can understand this fear of Skelton that some of you are expressing. He has been very effective against us the last two times we have faced him. It would of course be nice to sign him, along with a world cup winning scrum half and centre but that's not how we have ever really operated. Why change the model now?

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Flash Gordon »

carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 10:52 am
Thats fine. Just dont expect us to win Europe next year is all. Our current second rows aren't good enough at the business end of Europe, maybe JR excluded. That's fine if we just want to get to quarters or semi finals but it wont get us a fifth star as every other side is spending money on the top level players. I didn't say we are getting a second row. I need we need a second row.
Having Nathan Hines or Brad Thorn in the team would have made no difference in my opinion - by the way, neither of those were game changers in the finals we played. We hammered Ulster and Hines was part of a scrummaging capitulation in the first half of the Saints game. Sexton and JGP would have made a difference.

You can exclude Ryan, who is a proven international but he had a poor game by his standards at the weekend. What we did do was cause them real problems in the line out which if we'd be tactically and executionally smarter we could have turned to our advantage.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by carlow man »

backrower8 wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 1:36 pm
Dave Cahill wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 8:41 am
carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 7:06 am

It does come down to money. If it didn't then why did munster get snyman and dda? They knew they needed world class players to improve. They couldn't do that with Irish players so they bought 2 world cup winners. We are arguing about bringing in 1 world class overseas player. Its double standards unfortunately. The IRFU and nucifora in particular seem desperate to get munster back to the summit of European rugby. At our expense. Its beyond embarrassing.
Money (in the normal non-COVIDworld run of things) isn't the issue. Firstly, have the Leinster coaching team ever shown any sign whatsoever than they want to sign this kind of player? No, they haven't. Secondly, and more importantly, there's the opportunity cost of such a signing. What do we, and more importantly to the IRFU - the national team, lose elsewhere by making this signing. In Munster's case, signing RGS and DDA had nothing like this attached. Munster have one current senior international lock,one promising academy lock, and Kleyn. RGS is not going to be a blocker, coz there is no one really to block. Leinster have Ryan, Baird, Dunne plus Toner, Maloney (and Fardy). There would be a real cost to the national team. Similar with DDA - Munster have Farrell and maybe Sean French, we have the first choice international pairing, plus half a dozen others.
Its not double standards, its the exact same standard the IRFU have always applied. Nationalmannschaft uber alles. Whether thats directly or indirectly. When Leinster were dropping off a bit we got a world cup winning side switching prop, the best non all black in New Zealand and the force of nature that was Rocky Elson - similarly for Ulster a couple of years later, they got Pienaar, Muller, Wannenburg, Afoa and (eventually) Piutau. Even Connacht got Bundee Aki. Those signings weren't made so that the teams could get to European finals, they were made so the national team players could play at the highest sub-international level (HEC knockouts) to be ready for international rugby.
When? Leinster have signed Hines and Thorn to fill gaps and deliver European Champuions Cup wins on the double - that's when.

As for, 'we are overstocked with second rows': we have RyRy away with Irish camp for large chunks of the year, Toner (a fast fading force) and Dunne and Molony. All 3 will need to tog-out for every PRO16 match while internationals are away and resting. Only Dunne arguably has a shot at developing to wear the green and, if he does, it is probably 3+ years away. Every one of them is lightweight compared to Neilog's list at the start of this thread.

Enough of the puritanical "its all about style" or IRFU conformists, It's not even a close analysis as regards our 2nd row stocks. We need and deserve a large 2nd row unit of pedigree.
Totally agree with you there. Unfortunately if you give a different point of view on this forum, some posters take it to the nth degree to shoot you down. It's just an opinion but you would swear some people on here think they are actually making decisions on behalf of the club. It's quite strange how far they are willing to go to get there point across and take moral high ground. I feel we need a second row. I know we probably wont get one but we do need one.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Dave Cahill »

carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 4:59 pm

Totally agree with you there. Unfortunately if you give a different point of view on this forum, some posters take it to the nth degree to shoot you down. It's just an opinion but you would swear some people on here think they are actually making decisions on behalf of the club. It's quite strange how far they are willing to go to get there point across and take moral high ground. I feel we need a second row. I know we probably wont get one but we do need one.
You're entirely entitled to your opinion. I'm entirely entitled to say I agree or disagree with it and why. I thought it was a pretty good discussion actually.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by carlow man »

Have to agree to disagree with you on this. I find you to be quite difficult to have a discussion with in fairness. I'll leave it there. Not going to fall out with anyone. Onwards and upwards for our team.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Hoofhearted »

backrower8 wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 4:12 pm
RoboProp wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:44 am
Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:09 am
Buying in muscle is a short term fix and would be a stick id use to beat Munster and French/English teams. We have to be realistic, we cant win the European Cup every year. We need to develop our own players and compete that way. Lets develop Baird and Dunne etc. Yes it will take time and they will make mistakes, but its only a game at the end of the day.

Look at the players we were missing on Sunday, we did very well considering. A team with a fully fit and firing Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors etc and not just back from injury Ryan and Ringrose would have won that game. I think a lack of top class bench was the downfall, not a lack of power per say and that was down to bad luck with injuries not a lack of a quality squad.
Good first post. Level headed. You'll do well around these parts
1. We don't win it every year. We do lose to the same formula for the last 3 consecutive years though.

2. It is not just a game, it is a business that needs to be successful to live, survive and thrive and is 90% resourced to do so. We are talking about the various ways to bridge the last 10%.

3. You referenced Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors as big solutions to our squad issues on the day. Only 2 of the five are relevant as Cronin is not even first or second choice Hooker and we would only have had one of the 3 backrowers, that you mention, involved based on form. Same applies if you add Doris to the mix. We didn't lose the game at back row. We lost for a range of reasons:

A. With front 5 power the main one
B. Half backs the second, and
C. Lack of precision on the day also a telling factor (big moments with Baird and McGrath try chances).

The Lowe yellow was very surprising.

I see your point on all you have said.

I think its a big simplified to say we lost to the same formula. I've never played at this level in Rugby so what I'm saying here might be absolute tripe, so go easy on what i say next - its just my observation!

At elite level in any sport the margins are tiny. To us cretins in the stands (or behind the couch looking through our fingers) it might look the same old mistakes but in reality each game was markedly different. Power isn't everything and even if we had two big lumps at second row we could still have lost all of those recent big games. Why? Well the teams we played would have analyzed Leinster to death and come at us a different way. We could have had our big lumps totally bypassed and run off the park. Leinster can win lots of different ways and so can the other top 5 or 6 teams in Europe. We could have been tearing our hair out saying "we need a snappy NZ scrumhalf NOW" or "We need bigger centres!"

What we actually need is to develop the outstanding young players we have. Leinster are the envy of Europe when it comes to producing young players. So lets develop a team with the guys we have. Would you really want to let Baird or Dunne sit on a bench looking on for 3 years and never learn from the bad and good days? A rising tide raises all boats, this team is really special. Let's see how they develop. I have great faith in the way Leo and SL run the team.

On success of the team.... we won the league while providing the vast majority of the Irish team and got the semi of the EC, all while playing the Leinster way and knocking out last years champs. Yes we lost a Semi final against a really well drilled and attractive team. No shame in that, but look at what was achieved all while developing serious young players!

The injured players i mentioned are not just (in my humble opinion) needed for the day of the game, there is more to consider. They would have been applying pressure all week before the game to the starters, upping everyone's game in training, in prep and just the level of confidence to the squad. Its tiny % that win these games. I think Jack Conan being replaced by a fit Doris at 60min would have made a huge difference. Connors for VDF, chopping and orgainsing that defence after 55-60 min - fresh and hungry. Squads feed on energy and confidence. Seeing any of Leavy, Doris etc coming on would give any team a lift. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Dexter »

Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 6:28 pm
backrower8 wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 4:12 pm
RoboProp wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:44 am


Good first post. Level headed. You'll do well around these parts
1. We don't win it every year. We do lose to the same formula for the last 3 consecutive years though.

2. It is not just a game, it is a business that needs to be successful to live, survive and thrive and is 90% resourced to do so. We are talking about the various ways to bridge the last 10%.

3. You referenced Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors as big solutions to our squad issues on the day. Only 2 of the five are relevant as Cronin is not even first or second choice Hooker and we would only have had one of the 3 backrowers, that you mention, involved based on form. Same applies if you add Doris to the mix. We didn't lose the game at back row. We lost for a range of reasons:

A. With front 5 power the main one
B. Half backs the second, and
C. Lack of precision on the day also a telling factor (big moments with Baird and McGrath try chances).

The Lowe yellow was very surprising.

I see your point on all you have said.

I think its a big simplified to say we lost to the same formula. I've never played at this level in Rugby so what I'm saying here might be absolute tripe, so go easy on what i say next - its just my observation!

At elite level in any sport the margins are tiny. To us cretins in the stands (or behind the couch looking through our fingers) it might look the same old mistakes but in reality each game was markedly different. Power isn't everything and even if we had two big lumps at second row we could still have lost all of those recent big games. Why? Well the teams we played would have analyzed Leinster to death and come at us a different way. We could have had our big lumps totally bypassed and run off the park. Leinster can win lots of different ways and so can the other top 5 or 6 teams in Europe. We could have been tearing our hair out saying "we need a snappy NZ scrumhalf NOW" or "We need bigger centres!"

What we actually need is to develop the outstanding young players we have. Leinster are the envy of Europe when it comes to producing young players. So lets develop a team with the guys we have. Would you really want to let Baird or Dunne sit on a bench looking on for 3 years and never learn from the bad and good days? A rising tide raises all boats, this team is really special. Let's see how they develop. I have great faith in the way Leo and SL run the team.

On success of the team.... we won the league while providing the vast majority of the Irish team and got the semi of the EC, all while playing the Leinster way and knocking out last years champs. Yes we lost a Semi final against a really well drilled and attractive team. No shame in that, but look at what was achieved all while developing serious young players!

The injured players i mentioned are not just (in my humble opinion) needed for the day of the game, there is more to consider. They would have been applying pressure all week before the game to the starters, upping everyone's game in training, in prep and just the level of confidence to the squad. Its tiny % that win these games. I think Jack Conan being replaced by a fit Doris at 60min would have made a huge difference. Connors for VDF, chopping and orgainsing that defence after 55-60 min - fresh and hungry. Squads feed on energy and confidence. Seeing any of Leavy, Doris etc coming on would give any team a lift. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.
Well said.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by carlow man »

Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 6:28 pm
backrower8 wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 4:12 pm
RoboProp wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:44 am


Good first post. Level headed. You'll do well around these parts
1. We don't win it every year. We do lose to the same formula for the last 3 consecutive years though.

2. It is not just a game, it is a business that needs to be successful to live, survive and thrive and is 90% resourced to do so. We are talking about the various ways to bridge the last 10%.

3. You referenced Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors as big solutions to our squad issues on the day. Only 2 of the five are relevant as Cronin is not even first or second choice Hooker and we would only have had one of the 3 backrowers, that you mention, involved based on form. Same applies if you add Doris to the mix. We didn't lose the game at back row. We lost for a range of reasons:

A. With front 5 power the main one
B. Half backs the second, and
C. Lack of precision on the day also a telling factor (big moments with Baird and McGrath try chances).

The Lowe yellow was very surprising.

I see your point on all you have said.

I think its a big simplified to say we lost to the same formula. I've never played at this level in Rugby so what I'm saying here might be absolute tripe, so go easy on what i say next - its just my observation!

At elite level in any sport the margins are tiny. To us cretins in the stands (or behind the couch looking through our fingers) it might look the same old mistakes but in reality each game was markedly different. Power isn't everything and even if we had two big lumps at second row we could still have lost all of those recent big games. Why? Well the teams we played would have analyzed Leinster to death and come at us a different way. We could have had our big lumps totally bypassed and run off the park. Leinster can win lots of different ways and so can the other top 5 or 6 teams in Europe. We could have been tearing our hair out saying "we need a snappy NZ scrumhalf NOW" or "We need bigger centres!"

What we actually need is to develop the outstanding young players we have. Leinster are the envy of Europe when it comes to producing young players. So lets develop a team with the guys we have. Would you really want to let Baird or Dunne sit on a bench looking on for 3 years and never learn from the bad and good days? A rising tide raises all boats, this team is really special. Let's see how they develop. I have great faith in the way Leo and SL run the team.

On success of the team.... we won the league while providing the vast majority of the Irish team and got the semi of the EC, all while playing the Leinster way and knocking out last years champs. Yes we lost a Semi final against a really well drilled and attractive team. No shame in that, but look at what was achieved all while developing serious young players!

The injured players i mentioned are not just (in my humble opinion) needed for the day of the game, there is more to consider. They would have been applying pressure all week before the game to the starters, upping everyone's game in training, in prep and just the level of confidence to the squad. Its tiny % that win these games. I think Jack Conan being replaced by a fit Doris at 60min would have made a huge difference. Connors for VDF, chopping and orgainsing that defence after 55-60 min - fresh and hungry. Squads feed on energy and confidence. Seeing any of Leavy, Doris etc coming on would give any team a lift. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.
Very well put. Our bench was significantly weaker than at any other stage this year. Coupled with the fact JR and ringrose were only just back from injury meant we needed them to be at 100% which was a big ask. With no real option at scrum half on the bench and frawley backing up ross, we really had no one to turn to in the key positions on Sunday. Ross on his best day is still a long way behind Sexton on his. Jgp may have been able to provide something different to luke but we had no one.

I still feel that none of the current locks we have to come through will be what we need in terms of brute force and bringing a real edge to the pack in the big games away in europe when we need to go toe to toe with the big boys. That's just my opinion! I'm sure lots of people on here think differently and some might be thinking the same as myself.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by LeinsterLeader »

Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 6:28 pm

I see your point on all you have said.

I think its a big simplified to say we lost to the same formula. I've never played at this level in Rugby so what I'm saying here might be absolute tripe, so go easy on what i say next - its just my observation!

At elite level in any sport the margins are tiny. To us cretins in the stands (or behind the couch looking through our fingers) it might look the same old mistakes but in reality each game was markedly different. Power isn't everything and even if we had two big lumps at second row we could still have lost all of those recent big games. Why? Well the teams we played would have analyzed Leinster to death and come at us a different way. We could have had our big lumps totally bypassed and run off the park. Leinster can win lots of different ways and so can the other top 5 or 6 teams in Europe. We could have been tearing our hair out saying "we need a snappy NZ scrumhalf NOW" or "We need bigger centres!"

What we actually need is to develop the outstanding young players we have. Leinster are the envy of Europe when it comes to producing young players. So lets develop a team with the guys we have. Would you really want to let Baird or Dunne sit on a bench looking on for 3 years and never learn from the bad and good days? A rising tide raises all boats, this team is really special. Let's see how they develop. I have great faith in the way Leo and SL run the team.

On success of the team.... we won the league while providing the vast majority of the Irish team and got the semi of the EC, all while playing the Leinster way and knocking out last years champs. Yes we lost a Semi final against a really well drilled and attractive team. No shame in that, but look at what was achieved all while developing serious young players!

The injured players i mentioned are not just (in my humble opinion) needed for the day of the game, there is more to consider. They would have been applying pressure all week before the game to the starters, upping everyone's game in training, in prep and just the level of confidence to the squad. Its tiny % that win these games. I think Jack Conan being replaced by a fit Doris at 60min would have made a huge difference. Connors for VDF, chopping and orgainsing that defence after 55-60 min - fresh and hungry. Squads feed on energy and confidence. Seeing any of Leavy, Doris etc coming on would give any team a lift. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.
:clap: Good post HH. A bit of optimism that was badly needed

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by neiliog93 »

Yes, it is a ''bit" simplified to say we lost to the same formula in the European Cup the last three years - but only a bit. Being comprehensively strangled and overpowered by monstrous Polynesian forwards was a feature in all three matches. Probably the most important feature.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by carlow man »

Exactly. For me it has been a massive influencer on the outcome. Not saying its reason we lost but its something we lack and still do. Could be the missing piece of the jigsaw but as many others have said on here, we dont look like we are going to sign that type of player so we have to go with what we have and hope it gets us over the line. Very frustrating if we dont find the answers to the questions that teams like sarries and la Rochelle are posing to us.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by ronk »

neiliog93 wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 9:12 pm
Yes, it is a ''bit" simplified to say we lost to the same formula in the European Cup the last three years - but only a bit. Being comprehensively strangled and overpowered by monstrous Polynesian forwards was a feature in all three matches. Probably the most important feature.
Losing the tactical kicking battle was pretty big.

Looking at the team that we put out it looks like underachievement. Looking at the team from the previous week and what’s expected for this week then you see how cobbled together we are. We ran out of steam after the worst season for injuries I’ve ever seen(by miles), and it was still a decent showing away in France for a Heineken Cup semi final against an ex-long-time-coach. Not many teams would have gotten this far in the same circumstances. 2 positions in our backs came in in-form and without major disruption by injuries or loss of form and both of those played more rugby than usual.

The normal way with the Heineken Cup is that rough days like Sunday are what makes the future winners. We’ll do better next time.

It still hurts that we didn’t do it with what we had. It should have been enough.

Would a marquee signing at €500k+/year have made a difference, possibly. Would it have been financially sustainable if we had won a Heineken Cup or two, probably. Did the IRFU prefer to take talented players away, definitely.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Fan with smartphone »

It’s worth looking at Limecat’s preview and the section saying injured players for both teams. Then take into consideration that Sean O’Brien kind of had to move on last season. Now, Leinster bring in top drawer players everywhere, but I don’t think any other team could’ve remotely handled that throughput.

So to me, Leinster have first world problems! This ain’t like they are hitting a glass ceiling. You just can’t guarantee winning this competition in any year. In terms of winning it, as the saying goes - the best ability is availability. After that, a decent draw helps. Some years you get Bordeaux in a semi final. Other years you get Exeter away and then La Rochelle away.

I don’t think you necessarily need to sign a heffalump. It’d be nice as a luxury item, but look at how Baird was fit to eviscerate the La Rochelle maul. If a 2012 Brad Thorn fell into your lap, then yeah it’s a no brainer for any team, but there aren’t many (any) like for like Will Skeltons. He’s almost comic book massive, is a superb athlete, and can play too. He also looks like a good lad so I don’t think it’s about being too nice! You want tough and smart. I think you have that from within.

It’s surprising to me that the criticism that would previously have been aimed at Ireland, and Hugo alluded to it, applied to Leinster. They became too one dimensional and easy to hit. That’ll soon lose you collisions. From close in there’s a very reliable try scoring machine, but from further our there just weren’t enough offloading forwards when not winning the contact or on the ground. I know people say you can’t offload without winning contact as if that’s just a truism, but is it really? Bodyshape, handling, angle can all make up for meeting someone bigger. That Ireland showed the way to do this at the end of the 6 nations and its Leinster who didn’t, is a real surprise to me.

Additionally, the Exeter win - which was an astonishing display - may have created a little bit of complacency. Exeter have been a little down this season and I don’t think they stack up in the power stakes to this La Rochelle team anyway. Trying to go down that road again was just a very big ask with men missing and some key men still trying to get into form and fitness. Losing Ruddock (who was superb and a great foil for jVDF against Exeter) just tipped it into a bridge too far for me.

With a fair wind, I think Leinster win this competition next year. The next 10 years - contenders every year. How many are actually won? You just can’t make promises on that.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Fan with smartphone »

Last thing I’d say and I’ve just realised this is the wrong thread. The kicking game could’ve tested them more. Its hard to tell on tv, but it looked like Rog had them defend narrow in order to win contact and breakdown thereafter. Lowe nearly got on the end of a great Byrne cross kick. I think there were more opportunities to be had out there. Larmour came close with the pass obviously and even Baird’s chance - they’d nobody home. But at the same time Rog lassoed Byrne a bit too - it’s often been done to O’Gara himself- and they didn’t allow the passing game to get outside them. I really think they are a very good side. Botia is an awful loss for the final, but Toulouse will have to get a lot right to beat em.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Peg Leg »

Fan with smartphone wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:29 pm
Last thing I’d say and I’ve just realised this is the wrong thread. The kicking game could’ve tested them more. Its hard to tell on tv, but it looked like Rog had them defend narrow in order to win contact and breakdown thereafter. Lowe nearly got on the end of a great Byrne cross kick. I think there were more opportunities to be had out there. Larmour came close with the pass obviously and even Baird’s chance - they’d nobody home. But at the same time Rog lassoed Byrne a bit too - it’s often been done to O’Gara himself- and they didn’t allow the passing game to get outside them. I really think they are a very good side. Botia is an awful loss for the final, but Toulouse will have to get a lot right to beat em.
I too acknowledge the wrong threadedness of this post but reply anyway:
LaR played a blinder with regards to our kicking game, thye took it away from us. Our tactics have been to kick from our half and play in theirs, so they put 3 in the back field when we were in our own half and left one or two when we were in their half. We couldn't kick from our half, we didn't want to in theirs.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Serb »

Interview with Lancaster in The42 today:
Lancaster says there could be scope to add more quality to the squad, in the shape of an overseas signing, over the summer.

“I wouldn’t mind one,” he says with a laugh.

“Sometimes rugby is physics, isn’t it? It’s mass times velocity, and it’s helpful to have one or two (players) who can do that.

“That’s up to us to try and create the opportunity, persuade the powers that be to do that. I still believe that a homegrown squad that we’ve got can compete at the top end of Europe, I really do.”
Skelton to Leinster confirmed.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Fan with smartphone »

Peg Leg wrote:
May 5th, 2021, 9:29 am
Fan with smartphone wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:29 pm
Last thing I’d say and I’ve just realised this is the wrong thread. The kicking game could’ve tested them more. Its hard to tell on tv, but it looked like Rog had them defend narrow in order to win contact and breakdown thereafter. Lowe nearly got on the end of a great Byrne cross kick. I think there were more opportunities to be had out there. Larmour came close with the pass obviously and even Baird’s chance - they’d nobody home. But at the same time Rog lassoed Byrne a bit too - it’s often been done to O’Gara himself- and they didn’t allow the passing game to get outside them. I really think they are a very good side. Botia is an awful loss for the final, but Toulouse will have to get a lot right to beat em.
I too acknowledge the wrong threadedness of this post but reply anyway:
LaR played a blinder with regards to our kicking game, thye took it away from us. Our tactics have been to kick from our half and play in theirs, so they put 3 in the back field when we were in our own half and left one or two when we were in their half. We couldn't kick from our half, we didn't want to in theirs.
Absolutely. And then also coralled Byrne in the way New Zealand and Gatland have done in the past to O’Gara. They were prepared to give him the run, but not the pass to the outside. That meant the game was played narrow, where La Rochelle were waiting for the contact and to attack the breakdown. All the pieces were working together.

Blueberry
Graduate
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Blueberry »

Enjoyable thread this.....

For me anyway we would massively benefit from a couple of lumps in the pack to give us a degree of parity in the Sarries, La Rochelle style games where no one can deny power was an element in our downfall.

Every poster who has pointed out other issues be it lack of depth in our bench, tactical issues, kicking problems etc etc is also correct, defeats are very rarely one factor.

For me everytime I watch Leinster play I look at two things to give a sense of how the game is progressing. The first thing is forward collisions, if we are winning these we nearly always win, classic front foot ball stuff. Then I look to what we doing with the ball.

Generally speaking in games where we are winning collisions or achieve parity in collisions we win. In games where we struggle with collisions or are behind the curve we struggle. Saracens, La Rochelle games very simple examples. It is not the only reason we lost but it makes winning much harder.....

Yes the above is incredibly slimpistic but it is critical.

If we look at our second row stocks for next year the only guy right now who at the top level can win those collisions is to a degree Ryan. Therefore to me it is a pretty simple issue.

Will we get a second row ? Are we looking to get a second row ? I don't know and quite frankly none of you do.

But to me anyway it is something that would significantly help in the hunt for a fifth star.

Even with a signing we will still probably be putting 12-13 home grown players on the pitch in our first 15 so don't think it is diluting the Leinster ethos.

JB1973
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by JB1973 »

It's hard to win any game of rugby if your losing the collisions it's even harder when your set piece is struggling

However your pack had guys like Furlong Healy and Ryan in it, these are top class front 5 forwards who have delivered at test level let alone European cup level, guys like Kellher Conan and Ruddock are big physical players to so it's not like your going out there with a powder puff undersize pack and it's not like you get blown away on a regular basis even at this level of European rugby. The game before this you went to the defending champions and beat them handily enough . Sometimes even the best sides just play badly

You could look to get a giant NIQ lock to replace fardy and if you can get dan leavy back to full form and fitness he brings a real presence to the breakdown that would help, you could also look to bring in some genuine top level pace out wide, if your really pushing the boat out an du plessis size hooker of the bench would also be nice!.

That's hardly massive surgery to the squad and it should be something you should be able to manage easily enough

Your 3 defeats in Europe in the last 3 years have been in a final to a side that was basically financially doping, a qf defeat to the same side where you didn't turn up (and tbh that was a real bad performance) and to a top French side away from home who could easily do a t14 and European double.

When your winning so often It must be a kick in the teeth to lose games but you need to keep in perspective where you are , there is not a single team in the pro 14 that wouldn't want to swop playing squads or coaching staff with you.

Certainly no need to panic just yet folks, let's see how things are in 12 months when you have a full crowd behind you and a fully fit sexton at ten

Blueberry
Graduate
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Joined: April 4th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Blueberry »

JB1973 wrote:
May 5th, 2021, 3:21 pm
It's hard to win any game of rugby if your losing the collisions it's even harder when your set piece is struggling

However your pack had guys like Furlong Healy and Ryan in it, these are top class front 5 forwards who have delivered at test level let alone European cup level, guys like Kellher Conan and Ruddock are big physical players to so it's not like your going out there with a powder puff undersize pack and it's not like you get blown away on a regular basis even at this level of European rugby. The game before this you went to the defending champions and beat them handily enough . Sometimes even the best sides just play badly

You could look to get a giant NIQ lock to replace fardy and if you can get dan leavy back to full form and fitness he brings a real presence to the breakdown that would help, you could also look to bring in some genuine top level pace out wide, if your really pushing the boat out an du plessis size hooker of the bench would also be nice!.

That's hardly massive surgery to the squad and it should be something you should be able to manage easily enough

Your 3 defeats in Europe in the last 3 years have been in a final to a side that was basically financially doping, a qf defeat to the same side where you didn't turn up (and tbh that was a real bad performance) and to a top French side away from home who could easily do a t14 and European double.

When your winning so often It must be a kick in the teeth to lose games but you need to keep in perspective where you are , there is not a single team in the pro 14 that wouldn't want to swop playing squads or coaching staff with you.

Certainly no need to panic just yet folks, let's see how things are in 12 months when you have a full crowd behind you and a fully fit sexton at ten
Good post and is essence a massive lump instead of Fardy is ideal and helps negate the 'power' issue against the very lumpy top sides, Sarries etc.

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