Leinster Squad 21-22

[wixfjord]

Leinster player of the year: Robbie Henshaw
Leinster young player of the year: Ronan Kelleher

No qualms about Robbie but would have had Scott penny for young player

I think Kelleher has shown more at a higher level, both in blue and green.

A great season, but has SP played a minute of Euro rugby yet?

[Serb]

No, has 29 caps, all in the league / Rainbow Cup

[ronk]

I don’t care that they’re all URC level, he’s probably the most likely bolter left in the backrow in Ireland (Coombes already has bolted) in terms of the RWC.

[wixfjord]

I don’t care that they’re all URC level, he’s probably the most likely bolter left in the backrow in Ireland (Coombes already has bolted) in terms of the RWC.

He'll have to step up a level and get past Josh/Will to do that.

[hugonaut]

I don’t care that they’re all URC level, he’s probably the most likely bolter left in the backrow in Ireland (Coombes already has bolted) in terms of the RWC.

He'll have to step up a level and get past Josh/Will to do that.

It wouldn't surprise me if he did. He is miles ahead of where any of the other opensides in the squad were at that stage of their respective careers:

Penny: 29 appearances [23+6]/1827 mins, 16 tries @ 21 years 10 months
Leavy: 13 appearances [6+7]/525 mins, 2 tries @ 21 years 10 months
JVDF: 6 appearances [2+4]/260 mins, 0 tries @ 21 years 10 months
Connors: 3 appearances [1+2]/130 mins, 0 tries @ 21 years 10 months

[ronk]

It's the most attritional position. Ireland need depth. Penny has played about the same amount of rugby as Coombes at 2 years younger.

Of the backrows not capped before the tour who was likely to be the next in the depth chart in the medium term?

Now maybe he was carrying a knock or needed the rest for next season. Or maybe the others are more versatile. Or maybe Faz just wanted a proper look at them.

There's a list of players who might rise usefully up the depth chart in the next 2 years, Penny is one of those and one of the most important ones. Right now Ireland have vdF and POC as tested options at 7 with Leavy and Connors as long term scratches. That's a problem.

There are a few positions where the Irish depth chart could dry out very quickly. And this was a good time to do something about it.

[wixfjord]

It's the most attritional position. Ireland need depth. Penny has played about the same amount of rugby as Coombes at 2 years younger.

Except Coombes has started Euro knockouts and league finals. He's first choice for Munster.

Like I agree Penny is a great talent with huge potential, but at the moment he's blocked behind 2 guys at Leinster who have had very strong seasons (and possibly 3 if Leavy gets fit).

Also we started Timoney there at the weekend.

[ronk]

It's the most attritional position. Ireland need depth. Penny has played about the same amount of rugby as Coombes at 2 years younger.

Except Coombes has started Euro knockouts and league finals. He's first choice for Munster.

Like I agree Penny is a great talent with huge potential, but at the moment he's blocked behind 2 guys at Leinster who have had very strong seasons (and possibly 3 if Leavy gets fit).

Also we started Timoney there at the weekend.

Coombes has 3 HC caps, 1 more than his Ireland caps. He also has one more try than Penny. He's playing a lot of rugby for someone who's being blocked.

I'm glad that Coombes got picked. I worry that Ireland are light at 7. Connors shot up the depth chart very fast. I think Penny has been playing the same way.

[wixfjord]

It's the most attritional position. Ireland need depth. Penny has played about the same amount of rugby as Coombes at 2 years younger.

Except Coombes has started Euro knockouts and league finals. He's first choice for Munster.

Like I agree Penny is a great talent with huge potential, but at the moment he's blocked behind 2 guys at Leinster who have had very strong seasons (and possibly 3 if Leavy gets fit).

Also we started Timoney there at the weekend.

Coombes has 3 HC caps, 1 more than his Ireland caps. He also has one more try than Penny. He's playing a lot of rugby for someone who's being blocked.

I'm glad that Coombes got picked. I worry that Ireland are light at 7. Connors shot up the depth chart very fast. I think Penny has been playing the same way.

Yep exactly, Coombes has played Euro and finals rugby and has a clear run at the 8 jersey in Munster for a decade now if he comes good on his promise. You're dead right.

Penny hasn't played that level yet and is currently behind 28 year old and 25 year old internationals along with a guy who's potentially one of our best players if he could get back fit.

So yes, he's blocked at the moment and will need to overcome that to get anywhere near a RWC squad because we're not taking 3 opensides (along with POM potentially).

[ronk]

We might not be taking any if we don't have depth and get a run of injuries.

Penny has gotten loads of game time including at 8. The way he'd be blocked is if Nucifora blocks him to pressure him to move to a different province.

[Dave Cahill]

Penny has gotten loads of game time including at 8.

Penny is going into his fourth season with the senior squad, where he is fourth choice 7, behind three internationals, and fourth choice 8, again behind three internationals. He is he youngest of his six rivals with between 2 and 7 years on them

He has gotten lots of game time in the Pro14 and Rainbow Cup, but he has played zero minutes in Europe.

Over the last three years there have been significant injuries to all three 7s ahead of him and all three 8s ahead of him. So the opportunities are there for him, right? They aren't really though. As soon as those injured players have come back, despite him getting all those minutes in their absence, they go straight into the European squads, straight into the international squads - he gets more minutes against Zebre away.

He is now entering into dangerous territory. If you were his agent - and remember, despite what we often think of them, agents aren't just there to do contract negotiations with a players team or sponsors, the largest part of their role is career guidence, and their only interest is the player. Not his club, not his country - the player. So if you had a talented player like Scott Penny, who we'll assume wants to be a top player at international and european level - preferably at Leinster, what would your advice be? Could you see him reaching either or both of those goals as things currently stand at Leinster?

I'm not sure I can. Much as I love to blame Nucifora for everything (are we sure he wasn't involved in running the match in wembley on sunday - asking for a friend) I'd be hard pressed to blame him if Penny decided to move - because if I were Penny's representative, I'd be thinking along those same lines myself. If I want Scott Penny to be an International and to play European rugby, its just not going to happen the way things currently are at Leinster unless a lot of things outside of Scott's or my control happen. And thats no way to run a career.

[mildlyinterested]

this will be a big season for Penny and many other players, some will stay at leinster others will leave.

but let's not forget that Penny just signed a new contract with leinster so is clearly happy with how things have progressed to date, he is after all still only 21.

[wixfjord]

We might not be taking any if we don't have depth and get a run of injuries.

Penny has gotten loads of game time including at 8. The way he'd be blocked is if Nucifora blocks him to pressure him to move to a different province.

What does that mean? He's currently blocked behind two senior internationals and another potentially world class 7 on the way back from a serious injury.

The RWC is two seasons away, and if he's going to go he'll need to either leapfrog two of those or hope for injuries.

He's played 8 this year but I'd say we'd all agree he's a 7 moving forward given his size, and certainly at test level.

As Dave says above, much as I would hate to see it happen, there is definitely logic in him and Nucifora wanting a move to another province where he would be guaranteed a starting 7 jersey for all big games.

[ronk]

This is so much like the same thing last year with Will Connors. And it's just as poorly thought out.

Of course he flew up the depth chart and wasn't blocked at all. A move would have done him no good.

Same again here for Penny. If he moves he still needs to be better than vdF, Connors and Leavy to get international caps. But the chances of him doing that goes way down.

Meanwhile this tour represents Jordi Murphy falling completely out of the Irish depth chart.

In time Penny will move up the depth chart anyway, but Faz missed a chance to actively develop.

[wixfjord]

This is so much like the same thing last year with Will Connors. And it's just as poorly thought out.

Of course he flew up the depth chart and wasn't blocked at all. A move would have done him no good.

Same again here for Penny. If he moves he still needs to be better than vdF, Connors and Leavy to get international caps. But the chances of him doing that goes way down.

Meanwhile this tour represents Jordi Murphy falling completely out of the Irish depth chart.

In time Penny will move up the depth chart anyway, but Faz missed a chance to actively develop.

Connors flew up the depth chart because he took his chance due to injuries right? So he was blocked, but he got lucky.

The same may happen with Scott, but it's less likely because Connors is there now and we're now even closer to the RWC.

Like my point here isn't that SP isn't a brilliant and exciting talent.

But that he'll have his work cut out for him to get anywhere near a RWC squad without a lot of luck due to having three test level players ahead of him in blue.

That's unarguable.

By the way, you've conveniently ignored that we gave a guy his debut at openside in the USA test!

[wixfjord]

You've also given the example of Coombes, who has come from nowhere to now being a good bet for the 23, mainly because he has gotten a clear run in the Munster backrow and played in lots of high level games.

SP hasn't had that opportunity and, as bitter as it might seem to say it, would probably get that opportunity elsewhere.

[dropkick]

This is so much like the same thing last year with Will Connors. And it's just as poorly thought out.

Of course he flew up the depth chart and wasn't blocked at all. A move would have done him no good.

Same again here for Penny. If he moves he still needs to be better than vdF, Connors and Leavy to get international caps. But the chances of him doing that goes way down.

Meanwhile this tour represents Jordi Murphy falling completely out of the Irish depth chart.

In time Penny will move up the depth chart anyway, but Faz missed a chance to actively develop.

Connors flew up the depth chart because he took his chance due to injuries right? So he was blocked, but he got lucky.

The same may happen with Scott, but it's less likely because Connors is there now and we're now even closer to the RWC.

Like my point here isn't that SP isn't a brilliant and exciting talent.

But that he'll have his work cut out for him to get anywhere near a RWC squad without a lot of luck due to having three test level players ahead of him in blue.

That's unarguable.

By the way, you've conveniently ignored that we gave a guy his debut at openside in the USA test!

Timoney and Boyle. The other provinces being poor helps Leinsters squad players but if someone gets ahead of Connors and VDF that's more traffic ahead of Penny. Not to mention the possibility of Leavy coming back. John Hodnett could be thereabouts next season.

[ronk]

Also Connors was in Ireland camps before making his first HC appearance. His single HC cap was a month before his first Ireland cap.

Training without a cap would have been decent preparation. A cap would have been better.

[wixfjord]

Yep, so he played Euro and Pro14 knockout rugby because he got a shot through injury before he was capped for Ireland. Exactly what I said above there.

Penny has done neither of those things and at the start of the season with three other guys fit (fingers crossed) he will be back to 4th in the pecking order.

So we go back to what I said at the start - He'll have to step up a level and get past Josh/Will/Leavy to get near a RWC squad.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Every fibre of my being disagrees with ronk on this...but we’ve had the same argument 3/4 times over the years and he’s always ended up being right

I think it’s too simplistic to say he’s 4th choice 7 because of how injury prone Connors is and you’d have to have a big question mark around Leavy at this stage. Also think that our coaches are quite brave in selection.

So I don’t think he’s that far off making a proper breakthrough but it’ll be a huge task to actually do it...if that makes sense.

Just on Penny and this isn’t in reference to anything others have said here but I think he’s massively underrated in general because of his size and others stealing the limelight. As far as I’m concerned he’s got everything apart from being a good lineout option...brilliant tackler, good over the ball, really strong in close quarters, reads the game brilliantly, links well, and when you factor in his age I can’t wait to see how he develops over the next couple of years.