European Cup Semi-Final: Away to La Rochelle, Sunday 2nd of May 3pm

[fourthirtythree]

Darce was on Second Captains and spoke about how power was the big issue issue on Sunday and the knock on effects from it.

Shaggy also mentioned how some of our forwards will have lost out on a Lions place because Gatland will have watched them get dominated.

I'm pretty sure Ryan would have been third on his list of Irish locks and wasn't in with a chance unless be moved mountains. Don't think Kelleher can be dismissed from Sunday, don't think Healy was a serious contender but this match wasn't significant. Our back row... Well Doris might have been in with a shout or Leavy if either of them weren't injured. VdF not the kind of player.

Honestly think it will have bugger all impact on lions selection. Was he even there?

[riocard911]

Am I really worried about Lions selections? Not really. Leinster winning European titles is way more important to me than whatever the Lions do or don't do every four years. Does Leinster players getting Lions experience profit Leinster or even Ireland? Not sure on that either. Okay, if they play in the Tests they get to experience huge pressure games and are exposed to new coaches and players from the other nations. But when they come back worn out and unusable for a couple of months or even crocked? In James Ryan's case this summer, I think I'd rather see instagram pics of himself going fishing and off for pints in Connemara with Max Deegan and recharging his batteries then going into battle for the BIL in Safferland.

[joooooe]

Am I really worried about Lions selections? Not really. Leinster winning European titles is way more important to me than whatever the Lions do or don't do every four years. Does Leinster players getting Lions experience profit Leinster or even Ireland? Not sure on that either. Okay, if they play in the Tests they get to experience huge pressure games and are exposed to new coaches and players from the other nations. But when they come back worn out and unusable for a couple of months or even crocked? In James Ryan's case this summer, I think I'd rather see instagram pics of himself going fishing and off for pints in Connemara with Max Deegan and recharging his batteries then going into battle for the BIL in Safferland.

Perhaps not the thread for it, but seeing as it has come up...

Bernard Jackman was on the42.ie Rugby Weekly podcast last week with Murray Kinsella. He said that, in France, when they know they are safe from relegation but out of contention for the Bouclier, they let their SH players go home and arrange any medical procedures for front liners...it got me thinking. Imagine if the Irish squad got just one summer like that? But, alas, the feckin Lions.

Let's face it, the Lions is a relic of amateurism designed to line the pockets of Sky Sports. It is a hype train that appeals to the sort of people who bought tickets for Garth Brooks. I realise that, come July, rugby fans will have very little to discuss and coverage will be wall-to-wall Lions. But deep down we should surely all know that it is nonsense.

The very idea of "Britain and Ireland" should be enough to turn off most viewers, but they'll churn the hypemilk until it turns to hypebutter by having #LionsWatch, #PowerOfFour, and creating a faux "heritage" like Living with the Lions. It is b*%&!x that serves only to injure Ireland's best players every 4 years (whither Jack McGrath?). Imagine how Ireland would do next year if Leinster and Munster used the Rainbow Cup as a development competition and gave their front liners a proper rest and long preseason? Start like a train next year, to use Berch's phrase.

But, yeah, sure, after a 12 month season a trip to pandemic ravaged South Africa seems like a great plan.

I'm more likely to watch the Rainbow Cup. And not likely at all to be checking in here in July.

Rant over. Apologies to all the traditionalists.

[JB1973]

I like garth brooks and the lions so you have me bang to rights (not a fan of chris gaines tbh!)

Leinster simply didn't play that well this weekend that happens, and when it happens in knock out rugby you lose such is life

Injuries didn't help and neither did the fact that a very good front row simply didn't perform on the day

Your still in the elite group of European clubs and will start as one of the faves for next years cup just chalk this one off as a bad day at the office

[backrower8]

I like garth brooks and the lions so you have me bang to rights (not a fan of chris gaines tbh!)

Leinster simply didn't play that well this weekend that happens, and when it happens in knock out rugby you lose such is life

Injuries didn't help and neither did the fact that a very good front row simply didn't perform on the day

Your still in the elite group of European clubs and will start as one of the faves for next years cup just chalk this one off as a bad day at the office

Thanks for your analysis and encouragement, but we have chalked off 3 of these in 3 consecutive years for similar reasons...when it really counts. We shouldn't accept that and need to sort it out in my opinion.

[backrower8]

Two intelligent strands of commentary from @hugonaut and @backrower8.

A further outlook might be that Leinster now have a file opened on LAR and over the weeks and months ahead, that will be pored over, analysed and scrutinised to objectively determine what actually happened to us, by clarifying aspects such as:

1. How much below par did we play because of unforced errors?
2. How much below par did we play because they focused on our unrecognised weaknesses?
3. What weaknesses have they got that we didn't recognise?
4. How well did we optimise our perceived advantages and if not, why not?
5. Have we got the players /units capable of taking advantage of their identified weaknesses?
6. Could we beat LAR with our current or anticipated Squad strength 7 of 10 times?
7. Are there any positions in our Squad which are so limited that LAR would beat us 8/10?
8. Where's the list of replacement candidates if Yes is the answer to question 7.

Apart from the Sarries games in recent years, I remember hearing of tough objective reviews of Toulouse s/f in 2010 and others which led to altered focus by rugby management. There was certainly one post 2006 s/f against our southern cousins.

LAR have now been added to a list of teams on which we have an open file, which includes Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Sarries & Exeter - all teams that are respected and from whom we can always learn. Part of that learning may be copying particular elements of what they do (the highest tribute). Part of it may be learning to counteract what they do (the most satisfying).

The first part however is being very objective and brutal in the analysis of what happened and why.

I can't buy into the theory that now that we have played them we will do serious analysis on them. The Heineken Champions Cup is our definer. They have been at the top of the Top 14 all season. There is no problem getting VT to analyse them. We had 3 weeks since they qualified to play us and nothing else but Munster to occupy our minds in the intevening weeks.

[RoboProp]

Am I really worried about Lions selections? Not really. Leinster winning European titles is way more important to me than whatever the Lions do or don't do every four years. Does Leinster players getting Lions experience profit Leinster or even Ireland? Not sure on that either. Okay, if they play in the Tests they get to experience huge pressure games and are exposed to new coaches and players from the other nations. But when they come back worn out and unusable for a couple of months or even crocked? In James Ryan's case this summer, I think I'd rather see instagram pics of himself going fishing and off for pints in Connemara with Max Deegan and recharging his batteries then going into battle for the BIL in Safferland.

Perhaps not the thread for it, but seeing as it has come up...

Bernard Jackman was on the42.ie Rugby Weekly podcast last week with Murray Kinsella. He said that, in France, when they know they are safe from relegation but out of contention for the Bouclier, they let their SH players go home and arrange any medical procedures for front liners...it got me thinking. Imagine if the Irish squad got just one summer like that? But, alas, the feckin Lions.

Let's face it, the Lions is a relic of amateurism designed to line the pockets of Sky Sports. It is a hype train that appeals to the sort of people who bought tickets for Garth Brooks. I realise that, come July, rugby fans will have very little to discuss and coverage will be wall-to-wall Lions. But deep down we should surely all know that it is nonsense.

The very idea of "Britain and Ireland" should be enough to turn off most viewers, but they'll churn the hypemilk until it turns to hypebutter by having #LionsWatch, #PowerOfFour, and creating a faux "heritage" like Living with the Lions. It is b*%&!x that serves only to injure Ireland's best players every 4 years (whither Jack McGrath?). Imagine how Ireland would do next year if Leinster and Munster used the Rainbow Cup as a development competition and gave their front liners a proper rest and long preseason? Start like a train next year, to use Berch's phrase.

But, yeah, sure, after a 12 month season a trip to pandemic ravaged South Africa seems like a great plan.

I'm more likely to watch the Rainbow Cup. And not likely at all to be checking in here in July.

Rant over. Apologies to all the traditionalists.

I would agree with a lot of what you're saying the Lions kind of lost all lustre for me with the 2005 tour. I watched the 09 and 13 with passing interest and checked out completely for 17. The players put a lot of stock in it themselves though, for many of them being selected and starting on a lions test team is the ultimate accolade of their career.

[backrower8]

Darce was on Second Captains and spoke about how power was the big issue issue on Sunday and the knock on effects from it.

Shaggy also mentioned how some of our forwards will have lost out on a Lions place because Gatland will have watched them get dominated.

This short-termist BS that you are as good as your last big, high visibility game and that is all that matters.

In that case why are people talking about Mako, Billy V, Sinckler, Jamie George all touring? They were all dominated when it matered this season...and by us!! They have been playing lower level games since then, some very low, while we have lost to Heineken finalists with no English team in a semi or Welsh teams in the last 16 FFS!

Kelleher monstered LCD head-to-head in Exeter and has better stats than him across almost identical minutes this season 663 LCD / 631 RK. Many more tackles 69 / 120, fewer missed 8 / 3 (YES just 3 missed out of 120!) and metres per carry (2.3m / 3m) and similar conttributions per game 12.5 / 12.8 (tackles + carries)

Bougarit was MOTM with 33m off 8 carries, 10 tackles and 3 turnovers (the best bit - like RK did in Exeter)

But RK was our second highest forward for metres on Sunday with 25m off 10 carries (Vito 27m, Alldritt 35m, Skelton 42m). Even though we had slightly more possession we had 2 of the 3 top tacklers in VDF (17) and RK (15). Vito was 2nd (16).

Jack Conan delivered the highest forward metres 54m on the pitch, with only Lowe having higher across both sides (63m). Their forwards delivered 181 metres mainly through 4 players in double digits, we had 146m mainly off 3 and Conan delivering over 1 in 3 of them in a beaten pack....but you will hear about Sam Simmonds and Billy V and even CJ for Lions all of whom he monstered in high pressure games.

Ahh! Feeling better now

[injoewetrust]

The most important player missing from the game at the weekend was Will Connors. The ideal player to chop down Skelton, Vito etc.

The other biggest issue was McGrath had a shocking day with his kicking and to my mind he always struggles against the big physical teams as I feel he is slower to move the ball away.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[LeinsterLeader]

SL's press conference is worth a listen on his thoughts on the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRbPxdoNo3g

[Ruckedtobits]

Two intelligent strands of commentary from @hugonaut and @backrower8.

A further outlook might be that Leinster now have a file opened on LAR and over the weeks and months ahead, that will be pored over, analysed and scrutinised to objectively determine what actually happened to us, by clarifying aspects such as:

1. How much below par did we play because of unforced errors?
2. How much below par did we play because they focused on our unrecognised weaknesses?
3. What weaknesses have they got that we didn't recognise?
4. How well did we optimise our perceived advantages and if not, why not?
5. Have we got the players /units capable of taking advantage of their identified weaknesses?
6. Could we beat LAR with our current or anticipated Squad strength 7 of 10 times?
7. Are there any positions in our Squad which are so limited that LAR would beat us 8/10?
8. Where's the list of replacement candidates if Yes is the answer to question 7.

Apart from the Sarries games in recent years, I remember hearing of tough objective reviews of Toulouse s/f in 2010 and others which led to altered focus by rugby management. There was certainly one post 2006 s/f against our southern cousins.

LAR have now been added to a list of teams on which we have an open file, which includes Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Sarries & Exeter - all teams that are respected and from whom we can always learn. Part of that learning may be copying particular elements of what they do (the highest tribute). Part of it may be learning to counteract what they do (the most satisfying).

The first part however is being very objective and brutal in the analysis of what happened and why.

I can't buy into the theory that now that we have played them we will do serious analysis on them. The Heineken Champions Cup is our definer. They have been at the top of the Top 14 all season. There is no problem getting VT to analyse them. We had 3 weeks since they qualified to play us and nothing else but Munster to occupy our minds in the intevening weeks.

You're correct and my suggestion of us only opening a file" at this point was a little trite. We compile very detailed analysis on all opponents in European competition but we particularly analyse those who impress us or beat us. We follow their every move and nuance. We review who they sign and let go and why in both instances.

Not only on this Board but also throughout various Club boards in France, nobody yet appears to have a coherent game plan to take on LAR. Much like when Toulon were in their pomp, the commentary is about the need for any Club playing them, particularly at home, as to how you have to take every chance and hope that you can get at Kerr-Barlow or West. Even the Toulouse fans, who beat them in Lafrandre in February, 11-14, conceded that they were fortunate with that result.

Some of the commentators / analysts on Rugbyrama and L'Equipe, suggest that Racing, Clermont and Toulouse have a stronger cadre of players when everyone is available. But other than suggesting that Racing & Toulouse have more influential half-backs, nobody that I have read has outlined a believeably game plan that appears logical.

Because of the desire of EPCR to build the tension of the competition through the latter stages, you get very little time to really "prep" an opposition from the time of identification of your semi-final opponent. Many will disagree, but I would been happier playing Toulouse than LAR precisely because of our familiarity with them as well as our recent record.

Perhaps our Squad have also been a little spoiled by the quality of pre-analysis against teams like Toulouse & Exeter. Certainly, I can rarely remember a more effective game plan than we displayed against Chiefs, to the point where some of their own fans and neutral commentators attributed our victory to a significant underperformance by a number of their star players. That's a viewpoint I don't accept as I consider their "underperformance" can largely be attributed to the manner that our defence dismantled their attack and our attack probed areas of their weaknesses.

It isn't chess and we can't replay every action with full analysis. But until we can objectively dissect what happened to us, we can't begin to rectify the flaws.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

[Oldschoolsocks]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

Definitely not untrue, Ryan is a big unit does he lack a nasty streak?

[OTT]

Alternatively don’t get to the biggest games and you will never come up short in them.

[OTT]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

Definitely not untrue, Ryan is a big unit does he lack a nasty streak?

He carried our pack against Saracens a few months ago, he was phenomenal that day (imo) lead the comeback on his own. Won’t be remembered because we fell short and the scrum was destroyed but he was unbelievable for us.

Think he looked to be a game or two shy of where he needed to be on Sunday because of injuries, Gatland has picked a load of out of form players that he rates, he obviously doesn’t rate Ryan pity for him personally but great for his body and for us because we need him in tip top shape because he’s one of our leaders and world class (he’s no Johnny Hill that’s for sure )players.

[RobbieRockBoy]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

Definitely not untrue, Ryan is a big unit does he lack a nasty streak?

anyone who allows himself to be shoe'd lying down by an alleged fat cnut is a wimp

[Twist]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

Definitely not untrue, Ryan is a big unit does he lack a nasty streak?

anyone who allows himself to be shoe'd lying down by an alleged fat cnut is a wimp

Time to learn how that “ignore” function works....

[Oldschoolsocks]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

Definitely not untrue, Ryan is a big unit does he lack a nasty streak?

He carried our pack against Saracens a few months ago, he was phenomenal that day (imo) lead the comeback on his own. Won’t be remembered because we fell short and the scrum was destroyed but he was unbelievable for us.

Think he looked to be a game or two shy of where he needed to be on Sunday because of injuries, Gatland has picked a load of out of form players that he rates, he obviously doesn’t rate Ryan pity for him personally but great for his body and for us because we need him in tip top shape because he’s one of our leaders and world class (he’s no Johnny Hill that’s for sure )players.

He is a phenomenal player, but I think he lacks aggression

[Oldschoolsocks]

According to ROC, Gatland said that La Rochelle's physical dominance on Sunday was a factor in Ryan not going, and that Leinster have been beaten up regularly in the biggest games.

Ouch!

Definitely not untrue, Ryan is a big unit does he lack a nasty streak?

anyone who allows himself to be shoe'd lying down by an alleged fat cnut is a wimp

Oh dear, it’s the “alleged” that gives you away. Archer is objectively both fat and a cnut...

[fourthirtythree]

Ask an England supporter if Ryan lacks a "nasty streak", not the Irish media.