European Cup Semi-Final: Away to La Rochelle, Sunday 2nd of May 3pm

[wixfjord]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I do think it's pretty knee jerk to say we need to sign a journeyman ProD2 player or a guy who is playing club rugby in Oz as a solution, just because they're big.

Again, how did Exeter manage to win it last year without that player? We were more than powerful enough to beat them.

How did we beat Sarries three years ago and Toulouse two years ago twice with such an 'underpowered' pack?

As I've said multiple times now, I think 'we need more power' is a very simplistic way to look at that game yesterday.

'We need a proper test level 9'
or
'We need our new leadership group (Ringrose, Ryan) to step up and do it on the big stage'

would be areas i would look to first.

[OTT]

Important to remember that we lost for multiple reasons. Power was the big one for me and it’s not just a case of them rumbling forward and us not being able to stop them, it obviously has the knock on effect of tiring us out and trying to do things on the back foot etc etc.

But we didn’t help ourselves in lots of ways. Luke’s kicking was shite and even allowing for the pressure we were under, it annoyed me that even if that was the tactic we had to use that we didn’t then let Ross kick more or move it out to a Ringrose etc. Their lineout was poor so why not kick to touch more often instead of putting ourselves under pressure when they won kicks back? Even when we won them (Josh tapping back to Conan) we got turned over because we weren’t organised.

And as I said yesterday I don’t understand why we went away from the close in carrying/latching. Ryan got turned over twice because he went on his own (although Conan made a brilliant clearout and was so unlucky that Ringrose went off his feet), why was that happening instead of showing more patience and staying organised? We just didn’t help ourselves.

But just in terms of trying to sign some power, in an ideal world I think we’d sign a big lump in the second row but it’s not going to happen. The good news is that IMO we could look a lot better this time next year if we have Porter and Furlong both starting with Alaalatoa on the bench, Sheehan on the bench, Baird a year older, Ryan fitter and sharper, proper depth in the back row again, someone like Soroka breaking through etc etc.

I think we need to focus on developing some of the young second rows in particular. I’m a huge fan of Molony but I think yesterday’s game should mean that someone like him loses out on some game time next season to try and get the likes of Dunne or even McCarthy up to speed.

We don’t need him to be our version of Skelton though. If he was able to stop guys like Skelton and Antonio dead and make 20 tackles in the first 50 minutes before we unleash someone more mobile like Baird then we’d be laughing.

Personally I think we need to stop thinking of signing the likes of Skelton or Snyman and think more about someone being Damian Browne 2.0, and I think we can achieve that.

Two good rational posts. If we threw a Skelton 2.0 against their Skelton yesterday maybe it would have made a difference to the scores but that is just speculation and it also allows the other 14 lads on both teams away with not being important.

As you rightly say we kicked the ball to them through poor box kicking in the second half which gave them attacking field position. Their lineout was under a lot of pressure when we competed for it why not kick the ball to touch around half way and let them continue to throw crooked or continue to compete up the pitch where their maul would not have been as dangerous. We basically invited continuous pressure the whole of the second half. I’ve loved the way Luke has managed our young 10s in the Pro 14 but I was crying out for him to trust his 100 Leinster cap international half back partner yesterday to have a bigger role in our decision making and tactical kicking.

James Ryan can be a lot better than he was yesterday he looked like he was trying to do to much, we have a host of top quality back rows to come back in and compete, Ruddock was a big loss (my player of the season) Baird who excels at the loose stuff dropped the one that would have made him a hero yesterday 7 points gone he will catch the next one, Luke takes Larmour’s pass and it’s probably another 7 pointer in the first half. Robbie who has been brilliant for Leinster and Ireland had his quietest game all year, it happens I didn’t think it would because he has been so brilliant but maybe that expectation was unfair. We managed the ref poorly, I don’t like that you have to manage refs but that’s the way of the game and we kept doing things he was hot on. Loads of things in the game that were within our control that we did badly or were made to do badly because they were so good.

And on Skelton they have Skelton even better than he was at Saracens a 30-50 minute man, now he’s an 80 minute player. Well done La Rochelle that’s how you make use of one of your weapons.

I understand the physicality thing, Toulouse have it I hear, we beat Toulouse well twice a couple of seasons ago and somehow contrived to lose the away match that season by a point that we played brilliantly in after a slow start. Exeter win Europe last year with physicality, we beat them a few weeks ago, ran them off the pitch. We have to play well, we have to be better than we were yesterday with or without a beast of a second row.

[Blueberry]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I've met Jack Dunne in person. He's a great prospect in the Malcolm O'Kelly mould but with all respect to him, isn't going to be a top level enforcer second-row. He's obviously very tall but he's not actually that 'big' or broad in person - I had the same thought when I met Paul O'Connell.

I think you are probably right here. Signing one or two lumps isn't exactly giving up on the Leinster Model.

Look simple example:

Would we have beaten a monster Clermont pack and team in 2012 without Thorn ? Not so sure, himself and Cullen immense that day. I got the feeling that Schmidt knew that we needed a 2nd row lump and pulled a rabbit out of a hat in Thorn.

Of course it is all well and good talking about it but finding the right lump and getting it passed the 'Prop up Munster IRFU' brigade is gonna be tricky especially if it is in the Second Row. I suspect impossible.

Look in some respects the weakness in the second row yesterday was just bad timing - Ryan not 100%, Toner and Fardy on the way out and not at their peak and Baird is learning his trade.

I have a feeling nothing is gonna happen here and our squad for next year is set in stone now so in one way the above is all pointless speculation.

But it doesn't change the facts - I can see us getting to a qtr / semi final next year and having the same problem in a very similar way against a big French side be that Toulouse, LAR or Racing etc etc.

If we did pull a Skelton esq player it would make a massive difference.

Look maybe it's being looked at and maybe it's a case of it being impossible but that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do.

[carlow man]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I've met Jack Dunne in person. He's a great prospect in the Malcolm O'Kelly mould but with all respect to him, isn't going to be a top level enforcer second-row. He's obviously very tall but he's not actually that 'big' or broad in person - I had the same thought when I met Paul O'Connell.

We don’t need him to be our version of Skelton though. If he was able to stop guys like Skelton and Antonio dead and make 20 tackles in the first 50 minutes before we unleash someone more mobile like Baird then we’d be laughing.

Personally I think we need to stop thinking of signing the likes of Skelton or Snyman and think more about someone being Damian Browne 2.0, and I think we can achieve that.

I know it's a long shot but george kruis is out of contract in Japan this year and as of now, doesn't have a contract for next year. He's still only 31 and fits the criteria of what I think we need. Could we get him on a 1 or 2 year contract? Could Lancaster bring him to leinster? I know he wouldn't come cheap but I think he would be a huge addition.

[hugonaut]

I think Ryan wasn't really at the races yesterday which is a real pity because their lineout is frankly weak, not just not a strength, but a bona fide weakness which we failed to exploit. They knew it which is why they kicked long and not for touch. Their average kick length was just over 29metres ours 22.5. Much of the time we didn't even send up jumpers and I think the risk/reward favoured a more attacking mindset there.
I've seen a few players get pilloried online like Healy, which I think is massively unfair. Apart from one scrum he did okay to well and he carried pretty effectively. Something like ten carries for 15 metres, his opposite number made none. Or that Larmour was found out, being honest there was a number 14 who was found out yesterday but I don't think it was him.

Of their back three the only one who had any impact on us was Dullin who got in behind our cover repeatedly with his kicks. It was (from what I recall) Lowe that he mostly caught a bit out of position.

Kelleher had a good shift but was beaten in the carrying by his opposite number so bit of a learning experience for him. Their half backs were better throughout. If I'd realised Cooder had been talking up Byrne yesterday I'd have been terrified. It's a mixture of bad luck with injuries, bad planning, and Munster interference that we didn't have half backs to bring on. I'm assuming Frawley was barely fit.

Fundamentally our carrying/possession game struggles with modern breakdown interpretation and when we aren't getting go forward from the pack. There were quite a few fruitless passages of carries with no metres gained yesterday. The backs can't put footwork on it from a standing start unfortunately.

All very reasonable and accurate.

Frawley has only played two matches in the last four and a half months. It seems like he has just been limping through the season since mid-December.
Third choice scrum-half was always the most likely position that would come and bite us in the ass – I have to say that I think it was a very difficult issue to remedy in practical terms for Guy/Leo/Stuart once McCarthy announced he was going to Munster. Thankfully we have addressed that for next season.

[Dave Cahill]

Third choice scrum-half was always the most likely position that would come and bite us in the ass – I have to say that I think it was a very difficult issue to remedy in practical terms for Guy/Leo/Stuart once McCarthy announced he was going to Munster. Thankfully we have addressed that for next season.

The reality is that Ireland doesn't produce more than one top class scrum half every 20 years. So instead of reactive calls to sign every fat arsed afrikaaner jacamo customer, if we have the money and the permission to do so, we should bite the bullet, admit the truth and target a world class scrum half.

[wixfjord]

Look simple example:

Would we have beaten a monster Clermont pack and team in 2012 without Thorn ? Not so sure, himself and Cullen immense that day. I got the feeling that Schmidt knew that we needed a 2nd row lump and pulled a rabbit out of a hat in Thorn.

Of course it is all well and good talking about it but finding the right lump and getting it passed the 'Prop up Munster IRFU' brigade is gonna be tricky especially if it is in the Second Row. I suspect impossible.

Brad Thorn was 6'5 and under 18 stone. Hardly a 2nd row lump. That's similar size to Ryan Baird is.

[wixfjord]

I understand the physicality thing, Toulouse have it I hear, we beat Toulouse well twice a couple of seasons ago and somehow contrived to lose the away match that season by a point that we played brilliantly in after a slow start. Exeter win Europe last year with physicality, we beat them a few weeks ago, ran them off the pitch. We have to play well, we have to be better than we were yesterday with or without a beast of a second row.

That's exactly it.

[Chengleng1]

Disappointing loss yesterday, some good points and debate here in the 'port mortem'. I think we do need to look at a change in approach, history is starting to repeat itself fairly predictably at this stage. I do think we need a marquee NIQ for the HCup squad, i do like the George Kruis suggestion made above. I do think what we're trying to do with a majority home-grown IQ squad is admirable but what that model also needs at the business end of the season is all of your depth available. We needed at least 1 of Doris, Leavy, Connors yesterday for the bench. I do think things changed when Rhys went off and crucially we lost the player but also the leader. Away in France in a semi with out J10, Rhys or Fards on the field is suboptimal. There's a lot on JRs shoulders and with such a disrupted season for him, he seems to need some to get himself right too. Another thing we usually rely on is the draw. Our consistency and quality in the pool to get good seeding and home advantage is usually something we strive for and use to our advantage. We didnt get an fortune in the open draw.
On the size thing, I think another aspect to this was their ability to effect a dominant tackle on our ball carriers and have someone loitering for the steal. The speed at which Carly was blowing for not releasing made this very productive for them.



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[Oldschoolsocks]

Look simple example:

Would we have beaten a monster Clermont pack and team in 2012 without Thorn ? Not so sure, himself and Cullen immense that day. I got the feeling that Schmidt knew that we needed a 2nd row lump and pulled a rabbit out of a hat in Thorn.

Of course it is all well and good talking about it but finding the right lump and getting it passed the 'Prop up Munster IRFU' brigade is gonna be tricky especially if it is in the Second Row. I suspect impossible.

Brad Thorn was 6'5 and under 18 stone. Hardly a 2nd row lump. That's similar size to Ryan Baird is.

Thorne was all about aggression and technique, a joy to watch play

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Also what would we do if a Skelton type player was signed and got injured a la Snyman?

I’m all for getting more power into the side but there’s loads of things that we need to look at and some are easily fixable.

I don’t want to hang anyone out to dry but I think the coaches are getting off lightly considering the criticism of some of the players. For me a lot of our issues were tactical and that comes from the top.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Also what would we do if a Skelton type player was signed and got injured a la Snyman?

I’m all for getting more power into the side but there’s loads of things that we need to look at and some are easily fixable.

I don’t want to hang anyone out to dry but I thinkk the coaches are getting off lightly considering the criticism of some of the players. For me a lot of our issues were tactical and that comes from the top.

Snyman wasn’t injured, they broke him

[hugonaut]

Third choice scrum-half was always the most likely position that would come and bite us in the ass – I have to say that I think it was a very difficult issue to remedy in practical terms for Guy/Leo/Stuart once McCarthy announced he was going to Munster. Thankfully we have addressed that for next season.

The reality is that Ireland doesn't produce more than one top class scrum half every 20 years. So instead of reactive calls to sign every fat arsed afrikaaner jacamo customer, if we have the money and the permission to do so, we should bite the bullet, admit the truth and target a world class scrum half.

Get TJ Perenara before he goes to the NRL? [link: https://www.planetrugby.com/all-blacks- ... argreaves/ ]

[neiliog93]

I understand the physicality thing, Toulouse have it I hear, we beat Toulouse well twice a couple of seasons ago and somehow contrived to lose the away match that season by a point that we played brilliantly in after a slow start. Exeter win Europe last year with physicality, we beat them a few weeks ago, ran them off the pitch. We have to play well, we have to be better than we were yesterday with or without a beast of a second row.

That's exactly it.

Exeter are not remotely comparable to Saracens in 2019 or La Rochelle now in terms of bulk and physicality. Yes, Exeter are very accurate and play a fast-paced, draining game, but they have no athletic freaks. No Vunipolas, no Skeltons, no Antonios.

And yes, Brad Thorn was not a particularly massive second-row, but he's the exception, not the rule. He's the smallest elite level enforcer second-row there's ever been in the pro game. He was hard as nails and immensely strong. Ryan Baird, for all his athleticism, will obviously never be a Brad Thorn type.

[carlow man]

Big step up from luke and jgp. Good shot though. World class player who would put bums on seats all day. Not sure he would come. Probably big offers from france and Japan to consider aswell..

[neiliog93]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I do think it's pretty knee jerk to say we need to sign a journeyman ProD2 player or a guy who is playing club rugby in Oz as a solution, just because they're big.

Again, how did Exeter manage to win it last year without that player? We were more than powerful enough to beat them.

How did we beat Sarries three years ago and Toulouse two years ago twice with such an 'underpowered' pack?

As I've said multiple times now, I think 'we need more power' is a very simplistic way to look at that game yesterday.

'We need a proper test level 9'
or
'We need our new leadership group (Ringrose, Ryan) to step up and do it on the big stage'

would be areas i would look to first.

Toulouse now are superior to the team we beat 2-3 years ago. La Rochelle were still on the rise last year too. We beat Saracens in 2018 because Billy Vunipola and others were injured, and they were having a terrible year, along with the England national team. We've been utterly strangled twice by Saracens and now by La Rochelle. Bringing in more power isn't a guaranteed solution but it would definitely help.

By the way, I would much prefer to sign a de Jager than any of the more journeyman types, but in case people came in with the usual nay-saying about money, I was showing that there are cheaper options too, that would be reasonably effective.

[wixfjord]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I do think it's pretty knee jerk to say we need to sign a journeyman ProD2 player or a guy who is playing club rugby in Oz as a solution, just because they're big.

Again, how did Exeter manage to win it last year without that player? We were more than powerful enough to beat them.

How did we beat Sarries three years ago and Toulouse two years ago twice with such an 'underpowered' pack?

As I've said multiple times now, I think 'we need more power' is a very simplistic way to look at that game yesterday.

'We need a proper test level 9'
or
'We need our new leadership group (Ringrose, Ryan) to step up and do it on the big stage'

would be areas i would look to first.

Toulouse now are superior to the team we beat 2-3 years ago. La Rochelle were still on the rise last year too. We beat Saracens in 2018 because Billy Vunipola and others were injured, and they were having a terrible year, along with the England national team. We've been utterly strangled twice by Saracens and now by La Rochelle. Bringing in more power isn't a guaranteed solution but it would definitely help.

By the way, I would much prefer to sign a de Jager than any of the more journeyman types, but in case people came in with the usual nay-saying about money, I was showing that there are cheaper options too, that would be reasonably effective.

The Toulouse pack we took apart two years ago was:
1. Clément Castets
2. Peato Mauvaka
3. Charlie Faumuina
4. Richie Arnold
5. Richie Gray
6. Rynhardt Elstadt
7. Joe Tekori
8. Jerome Kaino (captain)

That's arguably more powerful than what they started at the weekend.

Saracens starting 5 against us in 2019 was Mako, George, Figallo, Itoje, Kruis.

You've ignored Exeter, who muscled their way to the cup last year and who we outmuscled just a few weeks ago.

Like I'd be happy to bring in a big NIQ signing, but it's unlikely, and I think doing so would be knee jerk.

But I'd certainly not be in favour of bringing in guys with little pedigree just because they weigh a lot!

[Blueberry]

Look simple example:

Would we have beaten a monster Clermont pack and team in 2012 without Thorn ? Not so sure, himself and Cullen immense that day. I got the feeling that Schmidt knew that we needed a 2nd row lump and pulled a rabbit out of a hat in Thorn.

Of course it is all well and good talking about it but finding the right lump and getting it passed the 'Prop up Munster IRFU' brigade is gonna be tricky especially if it is in the Second Row. I suspect impossible.

Brad Thorn was 6'5 and under 18 stone. Hardly a 2nd row lump. That's similar size to Ryan Baird is.

Okay nit picking.....Thorn is the best 2nd Row I've ever seen play, the most physical unit I've ever seen.......would back him to do exactly what we need.

Anyway you get the point.

Scmidt realised we needed a specimen / enforcer / beast and got one.

[tingman]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I've met Jack Dunne in person. He's a great prospect in the Malcolm O'Kelly mould but with all respect to him, isn't going to be a top level enforcer second-row. He's obviously very tall but he's not actually that 'big' or broad in person - I had the same thought when I met Paul O'Connell.

We don’t need him to be our version of Skelton though. If he was able to stop guys like Skelton and Antonio dead and make 20 tackles in the first 50 minutes before we unleash someone more mobile like Baird then we’d be laughing.

Personally I think we need to stop thinking of signing the likes of Skelton or Snyman and think more about someone being Damian Browne 2.0, and I think we can achieve that.

I know it's a long shot but george kruis is out of contract in Japan this year and as of now, doesn't have a contract for next year. He's still only 31 and fits the criteria of what I think we need. Could we get him on a 1 or 2 year contract? Could Lancaster bring him to leinster? I know he wouldn't come cheap but I think he would be a huge addition.

Good Call this on Kruis - we can go around the houses on whether we need an SR enforcer or not but the stark reality is we are not well stocked in this position.

[wixfjord]

Exeter are not remotely comparable to Saracens in 2019 or La Rochelle now in terms of bulk and physicality. Yes, Exeter are very accurate and play a fast-paced, draining game, but they have no athletic freaks. No Vunipolas, no Skeltons, no Antonios.

Yep exactly. They managed to reach the summit without these freaks you talk about outmuscling both Racing and Toulouse on the way!