European Cup Semi-Final: Away to La Rochelle, Sunday 2nd of May 3pm

[riocard911]

I'm still hoping Jack Dunne will be that big heavy hole-puncher we need.

[backrower8]

Very disappointed.

They just had too much power. They had the squeeze in the scrum, won the collisions and their caries around the fringes got them easy meters. Atonio and Skelton unstoppable.

Interestingly, nine of the La Rochelle starting XV hail from outside France (vs one for Leinster). Difficult for Irish sides to compete with that sort of recruitment.

Gibbs has the pack very well drilled, hope Stade’s flair can win the final against the blunt force or LR.

This is key, key, key. What other leading side is sourcing almost all their players from home? 2 out of 23 is too few. We need ballast in the pack and Harry/Frawley need to come through for Ross.

When we win it's because of the incredible talent line and the fact the players are so cohesive/on the same wavelength.

When we lose it's because we source too many players from the local pool.

We had more than enough 'ballast' to win that game. We had the starting Lions TH along with what is seemingly one of the best 2nd rows in the world. Would you swap them for Atonio and Skelton?

Fact it, we just didn't play well.

Somebody here said the only people who don't recruit their own are the English and French...well guess what, in this part of the world and in the main competition for us...that's what we compete with.

While believing that a very strong majority of a squad (c.85%) should be home (Leinster) grown, I don't believe that we should rely as much as we do on homegrown talent. The difference between us and England, France and New Zealand is they have a great gene pool mix going on. Pacific Islander DNA to be exact. Afrikanner South Africans are naturally large.

France have Willemse (SA), England the Vunipolas and Tuilagis - different gene pools. We need to access that in greater numbers than we do. The other 3 Irish provinces do so to a much greater extent than I think we should or need to.

All this "swings and roundabouts", "that's just our model" is BS. We are not sated by winning the PRO 12/14/16 every year and then shrugging our shoulders when we lose in the Heineken Champions Cup Final/ QF/ Semi for the same reasons year-on-year.

We are missing a Skelton/ Hines/ Thorn/ Elsom figure in our squad. Our second row roster going forward is not big enough to win in Europe.

We recruited Maori power in Lowe, Polynesian power in Lalaatoa. I see no issue with having 5 non-Leinster born players in our best 23, especially when we are supplying 2/3 to 3/4 of the Irish squad.

[backrower8]

Someone like him, fully fit if course, would have made a massive difference today. We just have a different model though. It means we have disappointing days like today, but it's not the end of the world.

Again this is absoulety BS. Ryan is twice the player Skelton is but has been out injured unfortunately. Once again you can't win every game. We had Exeter away than la Rochelle away it doesn't get much tougher than that. No need for any knee jerk reactions, we'll be back in contention next year.

“ Ryan is twice the player Skelton is”

At least you can retain a sense of humour despite the defeat

Ryan's form has slipped significantly and injuries aren't the only reason. He needs to grow his game. Main weakness for me is in how he goes to ground far too predictably, gets isolated and is turned over. I want to see him draw tacklers and offload a la the Sarries QF of 2018 when he and Leavy combined for a score.

That said, he is a class player but Skelton is in the same class and I don't think I have ever seen Ryan dominate a high level game the way Skelton did yesterday and in the 2019 final.

[backrower8]

The turning point for me was replacing Ruddock with Baird. Baird has many great attributes and will be (and indeed is) a serious player for us. He's not a breakdown guy however - we should have brought Fardy on. Its easy to be wise after the event, after all we were going well at the time, but we conceded so many penalties at the breakdown - which contributed to the 15 points we handed to them from the tee

Same feckin event and same mistake again as Sarries.

The exact same happened. Fardy was left out last time against sarries and we missed him badly. Same again today. Baird isnt big enough or physical enough to be pitched in against a pack that size at this stage of his career. We needed someone like him to come on at 60 mins. I accept hes better ball carrier than fardy but we needed to be cuter, not play into their hands. We really to sign a big brute of a lock to help out JR. That lad is being asked to do too much and his body will be shot by the time he's 30. He needs help, being asked to run the lineout, be the pack leader, carry over and over again, hit rucks and overpower people is too much for a player with a bit of history with hia and operations on his shoulders this early in his career.

100%

One big signing of this nature asap please.

[neiliog93]

I don't think you can play around power teams any more, or beat them via fast, multi-phase attacks. Why? Simply because the change of interpretation at the breakdown means that the holding on penalty is awarded more quickly now than before. This suits massive lumps like Antonio, and especially shorter massive lumps (Bastareaud, Armitage, Priso, etc.), who flop their obese bodies over the ball and simply can't be shifted.

Given we have come unstuck several times against Pacific Island-inspired power teams, I think it's very clear we are not able to 'play around' teams who are truly excellent at applying their power. We won't win another European Cup without a big second row. On that topic, there's a low budget option playing in the Pro D2 - Maselino Paulino, 6'9" and 120kg, obviously not on Skelton's level, but a very powerful guy. I know Skelton's younger brother Cameron was even bigger than him and seems to be out of pro rugby (obviously wasn't as good as his brother) - might he be worth a punt even for a year?...

The entry of the South African teams will help us to get used to playing more powerful teams on a regular basis for sure, as others have said. However, you often hear commentators casually equating South Africans to Polynesians, which is laughable. You'll never get a 6'5", 152kg South African prop like Antonio, or a 140kg second row with the athleticism of Skelton. Henry Tuilagi absolutely destroyed the world cup-winning, world class South African back row in 2007. Alesana Tuilagi weighed 121kg and ran 100 metres in 10.7 seconds. There's just no replacement for some of that DNA. Losing Roman Salanoa is a real shame for us. I wonder might he come back after next season if he continues to get little game time at Munster, Healy edges closer to retirement, and Porter switches to loosehead?

[backrower8]

A pretty sobering loss. While no disgrace losing to a good side away from home, I think the concerning thing is how it has highlighted/re-emphasised issues we have seen before.

We have a lot of guys who are a bit short at the top end. Not knocking them, they put in the effort and show up and do their best but are just a wee bit short. Every squad needs these guys but they need to be the minority.

Our bench yesterday was very shallow. Acknowledging injuries it still would have been a bit “use in case of injury” even with a full deck? The fact that we are still so heavily reliant on Healy, Toner, Sexton further underlines that really. I think our mad depth at back row “hides” shallowness elsewhere sometimes. Fantastic having 9 international backrowers but no use to you at 10!
- water under the bridge but of the guys who have been “encouraged” to leave Leinster, assuming injury free, you’d probably have had all of Carberry McGrath and Murphy on the bench yesterday?

Whatever about size/power, we also miss a b*%&!x. Cullen, Hines, Thorn, Fardy, even Jenno - big guys no question but niggly awkward hard bastrds more so. Sean OBriens comments regarding needing a “cultural” mix in the squad and the problems inherent in sourcing all players from a single place, especially when it is a somewhat cosseted place ring true.

In reality the P14 was a shambles this year. Munster and Ulsters losses in Europe and now ours emphasise that winning it - while demonstrably a good thing - is not a great marker of where you are in life. That may improve with the SA teams coming up but we’ll see. It’s not the P14s fault we lost but how relevant are the vast vast vast majority of Ross’ caps to preparing for a game like yesterday’s?

We’ve a fair transition to deliver next year. Healy, Toner, Cronin, Sexton, Fardy gone or dropping away. The guys coming behind haven’t grabbed their spots off them - excl Cronin/Hooker. It’s cullens last year too and I presume several other guys out of contract.

France are clearly on the up and seem to have gotten their house in order. If SA join the Heino then there’s no doubt it’s gonna be a very hard comp to win.

Somebody said that if you’re losing the physicals you need to be smart and for everything to go your way. We didn’t get the run of the green ref wise yesterday, and the Lowe yellow was weird, but I don’t think we were wildly unlucky. We just didn’t seem that smart.

A rambling post. Sorry. Ultimately, if you’re being brutal, 1 Heineken for the last 5 years is under achievement. We’ve been in the top 2-4 of Europe every year for that period and not got it done. As others have said, we won’t - and shouldn’t - sign 7 SA monsters but we do need to have a hard look at things.
- do we have smart leaders on the pitch? Pattern of the game yesterday was only going one way for 65 minutes - lots of caps but who is the Nacewa / Sexton brain?
- who is the long term 10?
- is Ed Byrne up to replacing Healy. Are we really moving Porter?
- is furlong leaving?
- do we need a signing at second row? Is Baird the solution there now or does he need a year or two?
- can we “source” a b$&%@#d for the back row? Leavy the key man in 2018.
- is McGrath good enough at the top level? How did we allow ourselves get so weak at 9 depth more generally
- has Larmour progressed? Is his fielding good enough?

Best post I have read on this thread and best in a long time overall.

[wixfjord]

I don't think you can play around power teams any more, or beat them via fast, multi-phase attacks. Why? Simply because the change of interpretation at the breakdown means that the holding on penalty is awarded more quickly now than before. This suits massive lumps like Antonio, and especially shorter massive lumps (Bastareaud, Armitage, Priso, etc.), who flop their obese bodies over the ball and simply can't be shifted.

Given we have come unstuck several times against Pacific Island-inspired power teams, I think it's very clear we are not able to 'play around' teams who are truly excellent at applying their power. We won't win another European Cup without a big second row. On that topic, there's a low budget option playing in the Pro D2 - Maselino Paulino, 6'9" and 120kg, obviously not on Skelton's level, but a very powerful guy. I know Skelton's younger brother Cameron was even bigger than him and seems to be out of pro rugby (obviously wasn't as good as his brother) - might he be worth a punt even for a year?...

The entry of the South African teams will help us to get used to playing more powerful teams on a regular basis for sure, as others have said. However, you often hear commentators casually equating South Africans to Polynesians, which is laughable. You'll never get a 6'5", 152kg South African prop like Antonio, or a 140kg second row with the athleticism of Skelton. Henry Tuilagi absolutely destroyed the world cup-winning, world class South African back row in 2007. Alesana Tuilagi weighed 121kg and ran 100 metres in 10.7 seconds. There's just no replacement for some of that DNA. Losing Roman Salanoa is a real shame for us. I wonder might he come back after next season if he continues to get little game time at Munster, Healy edges closer to retirement, and Porter switches to loosehead?

Do you not think it's a little bit knee jerk to say that a guy playing ProD2 who is 32 and has never played in the HEC or a guy who is playing club rugby is the answer to our problems?

Like we beat Sarries and Toulouse in the last few years too. Power wasn't an issue then. Exeter won the tournament last year with much the same squad who we totally outplayed away in the QF.

As I say, this focus on 'power' alone isn't the answer. It's way too simplistic. We just made lots of errors yesterday and were punished.

[munster#1]

Commiserations on yesterday’s defeat.

Unfortunately I am all to aware of that empty feeling when you realise that the team you follow are not as great as you thought they were.

Tbh I, like many of you, am very surprised at the nature of the defeat.
I was full sure that Leinster would run away with this game, but they not only lost, but were the second best by a distance.

For me all this talk of bulk is nonsense, that Leinster team is littered with internationals. The pack was almost a complete Irish pack and similarly in the backs, especially the back 5.
For me leinster lost this game on the training park and in the coaching box.

Everyone knew what LAR were bringing to the table, but the Leinster coaching team failed to come up with a plan to counter it.

On paper it was a team of experienced internationals, with a number of players getting ready to go on a lions tour against a team of journeymen, but the big difference is that LAR were well drilled, and looked like they were the team with the HC pedigree, whereas Leinster looked like a team that have never met each other before, and could not react to what was in front of them.

Leinster have not become a bad team all of a sudden, and are still the best team in the Pro14, but they really need to learn to play to their strengths rather than try to beat up teams up front.

[OTT]

So we should move away from the team and model that wins their league regularly and gets to the latter stages in Europe practically every year winning it a record 4 times and try and be like teams who don’t win their league regularly or get to the latter stages of Europe regularly because we lost a game of rugby where the other team played better than us on the day.

This competition isn’t easy to win, we’d be moaning about it if it was like we do when we win the league , when we win it for the 5th time (which we will eventually) it will be better for the bad days we had along the way.



Roll on the next 20 pages of garbage because another team beat us in a knockout match which we were winning at 58minutes because they played better than us.

[blaker]

So we should move away from the team and model that wins their league regularly and gets to the latter stages in Europe practically every year winning it a record 4 times and try and be like teams who don’t win their league regularly or get to the latter stages of Europe regularly because we lost a game of rugby where the other team played better than us on the day.

This competition isn’t easy to win, we’d be moaning about it if it was like we do when we win the league , when we win it for the 5th time (which we will eventually) it will be better for the bad days we had along the way.



Roll on the next 20 pages of garbage because another team beat us in a knockout match which we were winning at 58minutes because they played better than us.

Nobody is suggesting that.

There’s a balanced discussion of the marginal improvement required to take us from a team which are perennial winners of a weak league who are now quite regularly falling short at the latter stages of the Heineken to one which takes the final step.

It’s a very hard competition to win. It’s also one littered with teams who have shone brightly and then fallen away due to retirements or failure to improve and progress.

[carlow man]

A lot has been said of the huge lumps that others have that we don't, but we didn't lose because of the power of Skelton et al, we lost because we allowed them apply it. They were able to spend the entire game in their comfort zone, trundling up and down their lanes without ever being stressed. Skelton, for example, isn't particularly explosive, but we did nothing either with the ball or without it to stop or slow his momentuum. We didn't do anything that would waste their energy doing something other than what they wanted to do. That was a tactical failure on our part.

We did lose because of skeltons power and the power of their pack. If you cant handle their power you will lose. Its simple but very effective. You cant expect to win the champions cup on the cheap which is what we are trying to do. If we want to win this competition then we need to sign a couple of big hitters. Sarries did a number on us and now la Rochelle have done it. When we are 100%fit and firing then we have a chance but it's only a chance. We need power to compete and unfortunately we dont have a lock who can combine with Ryan to provide that. Our pack is under powered against the big boys in this competition.

[curates_egg]

I'm still hoping Jack Dunne will be that big heavy hole-puncher we need.

He looks chunkier this season, but he is listed as roughly the same weight as Ryan (x2), Baird, Molony.
They all weigh in between 111-113kg.
So, unless there is someone I am missing in the academy, we are going to have to pis$ with 112kg c0cks that we've got.

[ronk]

I'm still hoping Jack Dunne will be that big heavy hole-puncher we need.

Dunne is the closest we have to to a 140 kg Skelton, but that doesn't mean we should expect that from him or get the best out of him if he tries.

[Blueberry]

A lot has been said of the huge lumps that others have that we don't, but we didn't lose because of the power of Skelton et al, we lost because we allowed them apply it. They were able to spend the entire game in their comfort zone, trundling up and down their lanes without ever being stressed. Skelton, for example, isn't particularly explosive, but we did nothing either with the ball or without it to stop or slow his momentuum. We didn't do anything that would waste their energy doing something other than what they wanted to do. That was a tactical failure on our part.

We did lose because of skeltons power and the power of their pack. If you cant handle their power you will lose. Its simple but very effective. You cant expect to win the champions cup on the cheap which is what we are trying to do. If we want to win this competition then we need to sign a couple of big hitters. Sarries did a number on us and now la Rochelle have done it. When we are 100%fit and firing then we have a chance but it's only a chance. We need power to compete and unfortunately we dont have a lock who can combine with Ryan to provide that. Our pack is under powered against the big boys in this competition.

I think this is about correct - we end up in a situation where we need to be close to perfect to win these big games. Trouble is when you have to do it 2-3 games on the trot you are really asking alot - if we had snuck by LAR yesterday we in essence had exactly the same type of physical challenge coming up v Toulouse.

Bottom line is if you watch the game back yesterday (especially the second half) we were physically on the back foot up front for most of it, Skelton in particular was immense. They were nervous at the start and gave away some silly penalties which allowed us to keep on top in the first half. As we tired and their discipline improved we got pummeled. I think the reality is you could play that game 10 times and LAR could adopt the same tactics and win 6/7 times out of 10. When we don't start with a physical deficit like we have done v Sarries, LAR etc we are virtually guaranteed a win as we are very good but start with that deficit and it increases the demand to be perfect in all other areas.

There is nothing 'wrong' with our approach but by being behind the curve on the big physical lumps we are putting huge pressure on other areas.

So we either counter the big physical deficit by signing a couple of lumps or we plug away as we are but accept that when it comes to the crunch we have to win 2-3 at best 50:50 game and the odds are against us.

I'm not saying either route is ideal but anyone who is denying immense physicality isn't an issue after what has happened in 2019,2020 and 2021 is I think just not being realistic.

[carlow man]

A pretty sobering loss. While no disgrace losing to a good side away from home, I think the concerning thing is how it has highlighted/re-emphasised issues we have seen before.

We have a lot of guys who are a bit short at the top end. Not knocking them, they put in the effort and show up and do their best but are just a wee bit short. Every squad needs these guys but they need to be the minority.

Our bench yesterday was very shallow. Acknowledging injuries it still would have been a bit “use in case of injury” even with a full deck? The fact that we are still so heavily reliant on Healy, Toner, Sexton further underlines that really. I think our mad depth at back row “hides” shallowness elsewhere sometimes. Fantastic having 9 international backrowers but no use to you at 10!
- water under the bridge but of the guys who have been “encouraged” to leave Leinster, assuming injury free, you’d probably have had all of Carberry McGrath and Murphy on the bench yesterday?

Whatever about size/power, we also miss a b*%&!x. Cullen, Hines, Thorn, Fardy, even Jenno - big guys no question but niggly awkward hard bastrds more so. Sean OBriens comments regarding needing a “cultural” mix in the squad and the problems inherent in sourcing all players from a single place, especially when it is a somewhat cosseted place ring true.

In reality the P14 was a shambles this year. Munster and Ulsters losses in Europe and now ours emphasise that winning it - while demonstrably a good thing - is not a great marker of where you are in life. That may improve with the SA teams coming up but we’ll see. It’s not the P14s fault we lost but how relevant are the vast vast vast majority of Ross’ caps to preparing for a game like yesterday’s?

We’ve a fair transition to deliver next year. Healy, Toner, Cronin, Sexton, Fardy gone or dropping away. The guys coming behind haven’t grabbed their spots off them - excl Cronin/Hooker. It’s cullens last year too and I presume several other guys out of contract.

France are clearly on the up and seem to have gotten their house in order. If SA join the Heino then there’s no doubt it’s gonna be a very hard comp to win.

Somebody said that if you’re losing the physicals you need to be smart and for everything to go your way. We didn’t get the run of the green ref wise yesterday, and the Lowe yellow was weird, but I don’t think we were wildly unlucky. We just didn’t seem that smart.

A rambling post. Sorry. Ultimately, if you’re being brutal, 1 Heineken for the last 5 years is under achievement. We’ve been in the top 2-4 of Europe every year for that period and not got it done. As others have said, we won’t - and shouldn’t - sign 7 SA monsters but we do need to have a hard look at things.
- do we have smart leaders on the pitch? Pattern of the game yesterday was only going one way for 65 minutes - lots of caps but who is the Nacewa / Sexton brain?
- who is the long term 10?
- is Ed Byrne up to replacing Healy. Are we really moving Porter?
- is furlong leaving?
- do we need a signing at second row? Is Baird the solution there now or does he need a year or two?
- can we “source” a b$&%@#d for the back row? Leavy the key man in 2018.
- is McGrath good enough at the top level? How did we allow ourselves get so weak at 9 depth more generally
- has Larmour progressed? Is his fielding good enough?

Best post I have read on this thread and best in a long time overall.

Seconded. We dont have the depth in the right areas and ultimately we dont have the power to deal with the very top teams out there. If a team has serious power and shuts our attack down then we are screwed. Only until we sign a couple of big hitters in the pack primarily in the second row, then we wont be winning europe anytime soon.

[Fireworks]

There will always be things that need improvement and a desire for bigger, faster more skilled squad members. However I don't think there is that much of an issue.

I believe it came down to the yellow card. Their size was causing us difficulties but we were managing until we went a man down. We then had to take chances to chase the game.

Our home grown team lost to a good team littered with imports in their back yard. Move the match to Dublin and the result could have been very different. No need to panic. Role on next year.

[neiliog93]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I've met Jack Dunne in person. He's a great prospect in the Malcolm O'Kelly mould but with all respect to him, isn't going to be a top level enforcer second-row. He's obviously very tall but he's not actually that 'big' or broad in person - I had the same thought when I met Paul O'Connell.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Important to remember that we lost for multiple reasons. Power was the big one for me and it’s not just a case of them rumbling forward and us not being able to stop them, it obviously has the knock on effect of tiring us out and trying to do things on the back foot etc etc.

But we didn’t help ourselves in lots of ways. Luke’s kicking was shite and even allowing for the pressure we were under, it annoyed me that even if that was the tactic we had to use that we didn’t then let Ross kick more or move it out to a Ringrose etc. Their lineout was poor so why not kick to touch more often instead of putting ourselves under pressure when they won kicks back? Even when we won them (Josh tapping back to Conan) we got turned over because we weren’t organised.

And as I said yesterday I don’t understand why we went away from the close in carrying/latching. Ryan got turned over twice because he went on his own (although Conan made a brilliant clearout and was so unlucky that Ringrose went off his feet), why was that happening instead of showing more patience and staying organised? We just didn’t help ourselves.

But just in terms of trying to sign some power, in an ideal world I think we’d sign a big lump in the second row but it’s not going to happen. The good news is that IMO we could look a lot better this time next year if we have Porter and Furlong both starting with Alaalatoa on the bench, Sheehan on the bench, Baird a year older, Ryan fitter and sharper, proper depth in the back row again, someone like Soroka breaking through etc etc.

I think we need to focus on developing some of the young second rows in particular. I’m a huge fan of Molony but I think yesterday’s game should mean that someone like him loses out on some game time next season to try and get the likes of Dunne or even McCarthy up to speed.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

It's neither knee-jerk nor abandoning our 'model' to think we should make one signing of a very big second-row. I really don't see the issue and there's a clear need for it against the top 3-4 other sides in Europe.

I've met Jack Dunne in person. He's a great prospect in the Malcolm O'Kelly mould but with all respect to him, isn't going to be a top level enforcer second-row. He's obviously very tall but he's not actually that 'big' or broad in person - I had the same thought when I met Paul O'Connell.

We don’t need him to be our version of Skelton though. If he was able to stop guys like Skelton and Antonio dead and make 20 tackles in the first 50 minutes before we unleash someone more mobile like Baird then we’d be laughing.

Personally I think we need to stop thinking of signing the likes of Skelton or Snyman and think more about someone being Damian Browne 2.0, and I think we can achieve that.

[fourthirtythree]

I think Ryan wasn't really at the races yesterday which is a real pity because their lineout is frankly weak, not just not a strength, but a bona fide weakness which we failed to exploit. They knew it which is why they kicked long and not for touch. Their average kick length was just over 29metres ours 22.5. Much of the time we didn't even send up jumpers and I think the risk/reward favoured a more attacking mindset there.
I've seen a few players get pilloried online like Healy, which I think is massively unfair. Apart from one scrum he did okay to well and he carried pretty effectively. Something like ten carries for 15 metres, his opposite number made none. Or that Larmour was found out, being honest there was a number 14 who was found out yesterday but I don't think it was him.

Of their back three the only one who had any impact on us was Dullin who got in behind our cover repeatedly with his kicks. It was (from what I recall) Lowe that he mostly caught a bit out of position.

Kelleher had a good shift but was beaten in the carrying by his opposite number so bit of a learning experience for him. Their half backs were better throughout. If I'd realised Cooder had been talking up Byrne yesterday I'd have been terrified. It's a mixture of bad luck with injuries, bad planning, and Munster interference that we didn't have half backs to bring on. I'm assuming Frawley was barely fit.

Fundamentally our carrying/possession game struggles with modern breakdown interpretation and when we aren't getting go forward from the pack. There were quite a few fruitless passages of carries with no metres gained yesterday. The backs can't put footwork on it from a standing start unfortunately.