Leinster’s Captaincy Options

A forum for true blue Leinster supporters to talk about and support their team

Moderator: moderators

User avatar
Oldschool
Cian Healy
Posts: 12960
Joined: March 27th, 2008, 1:10 pm

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by Oldschool »

OTT wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
backrower8 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 2:32 pm

I think Johnny is actually detrimental to this team’s development - too dominant a persona, we are too predictable playing under him & failing powers that are normal at 35, but which get exposed at the top levels.

He was absolutely brutal in the scrums on Saturday to be fair.

Though the team did open up after he went off in the 63rd minute at 17-22.

All the other games he played and captained Leinster in during the season that they won he was to predictable and to dominant, defo!

The only thing you got wrong was that he is to old at 35, I reckon he has another 10-15 years in him.

No confirmation bias there at all.

But to answer your question I would imagine our future captain would come from Ryan or Leavy as others have stated, they are both world class players imo and both lead by example. We look well sorted in that regard.
That's the main problem I have with Sexton, he gets involved in stuff that he shouldn't.
Like most people, he knows SFA about scrummaging so are you surprised he was brutal? :lol:
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

Xanthippe wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 3:29 pm
So this...
backrower8 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 2:32 pm
we need a Supreme Leader UNDER THE AGE OF 35 to take hold of this group NOW and drive standards
and later in the same post this...
backrower8 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 2:32 pm
I think Johnny is actually detrimental to this team’s development - too dominant a persona
I'm confused
No, you’re obtuse. See above where I have stated the obvious for you. Hope it helps.

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

OTT wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
backrower8 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 2:32 pm

I think Johnny is actually detrimental to this team’s development - too dominant a persona, we are too predictable playing under him & failing powers that are normal at 35, but which get exposed at the top levels.

He was absolutely brutal in the scrums on Saturday to be fair.

Though the team did open up after he went off in the 63rd minute at 17-22.

All the other games he played and captained Leinster in during the season that they won he was to predictable and to dominant, defo!

The only thing you got wrong was that he is to old at 35, I reckon he has another 10-15 years in him.

No confirmation bias there at all.

But to answer your question I would imagine our future captain would come from Ryan or Leavy as others have stated, they are both world class players imo and both lead by example. We look well sorted in that regard.
In your efforts to be derogatory (again) you left your brain to one side (again) and ignored the fact that my comments about Sexton weren’t focused on a single match.

The grown ups on the forum will remember Sexton’s frequently very poor performances against top opposition since the start of 2019 and will understand the need to stop investing so heavily in a 35 year old in the sport’s key position.

But keep on playing the poster and not the issue.

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

Sexton has played 11 games for Leinster since the start of 2019, we have won 9 of them and lost 2 games both against Saracens. Which games were you talking about?
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

OTT wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 8:07 pm
Sexton has played 11 games for Leinster since the start of 2019, we have won 9 of them and lost 2 games both against Saracens. Which games were you talking about?
You are missing the point. What I said under the context of THIS thread again was:

“I think Johnny is actually detrimental to this team’s development - too dominant a persona, we are too predictable playing under him & failing powers that are normal at 35, but which get exposed at the top levels.”


He was not the stand-out problem on Saturday. But our whole set-up and outlook under him has become too predictable and seen us and Ireland fail badly, repeatedly when it counts 2019 6N to England & Wales; Champions Cup Final to Saracens; RWC QF to ABs; 2020 6N to England & Champions Cup SF to Saracens.

He was very poor, sub-standard in several of those matches. He botched a restart on Saturday. He imploded in Twickenham last Spring. If others did the same they would be buried by now. There is no shame in it. He is now 35.

This season (2020-21) we, Leinster and Ireland, need to accelerate his replacement and the development of others by playing them more and more and him less and less. This also means moving the Captaincy on.

This isn’t rocket science. He is 35 and his contract is only to 2021. If he got an extension it would only be to 2022 and should be a provincial contract in the mode of winding him down as a #2 or #3 choice.

He is a bottle-neck on the development of this team and Ireland. That doesn’t change the fact that he is probably the best out-half Leinster and this country has had with the exception of Kyle, as regards Ireland.

But we don’t need to hang on to the even bitterer, bitter end and Captaincy of Leinster and country should be easy decisions to make…once management aren’t scared of his reaction to either event, which they should have no cause to be concerned about given Johnny’s understanding that nobody is bigger than the team!

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

.
Last edited by OTT on September 23rd, 2020, 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

.
Last edited by OTT on September 23rd, 2020, 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

.
Last edited by OTT on September 23rd, 2020, 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

Ah I thought you started a thread about the Leinster captaincy, it’s in the Leinster addicts section, you titled it Leinster’s Captaincy Options but you were actually talking about Ireland. I just can’t keep up with you grown ups.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

Who told you you were funny? It’s not your fault. I hold them responsible.

Your diversionary blurb on forum etiquette is more BS. As the grown ups know I have focused on the Leinster Captaincy in my remarks. Fact is, his roles for Leinster and a largely Leinster-populated Ireland side are near mirror images of each other so the points I am making are relevant to both in largely equal measure.

I’ll take it that you want Johnny to Captain until he decides when he wants to go and that you believe that is best for Leinster. Suffice to say I don’t agree with for the reasons already stated.

User avatar
ronk
Leo Cullen
Posts: 10788
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by ronk »

Leinster are developing fine. Ross Byrne isn’t trying to be an exact copy of Sexton.

Sexton is very good overall and we aren’t making accommodations to any flaws in his game. He did some really good things at the weekend too such as for Larmour’s try.

The strategic adjustment we could have made became moot after first Carbery moved away and then Larmour moved to fullback. There aren’t any high level playmakers leaving options for a different path.

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

backrower8 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 10:53 pm
Who told you you were funny? It’s not your fault. I hold them responsible.

Your diversionary blurb on forum etiquette is more BS. As the grown ups know I have focused on the Leinster Captaincy in my remarks. Fact is, his roles for Leinster and a largely Leinster-populated Ireland side are near mirror images of each other so the points I am making are relevant to both in largely equal measure.

I’ll take it that you want Johnny to Captain until he decides when he wants to go and that you believe that is best for Leinster. Suffice to say I don’t agree with for the reasons already stated.
Look, you started a thread and the grown ups (every other poster) gave you the benefit of the doubt and you reverted to type. You did what you always do, you introduced hyperbole bollix to try and bury a player while you campaigned for another player.

You have been making these type of posts for 14 years on here. Where you push your player for a particular thing, we are all Leinster fans on here but it is clear to almost anyone who hasn’t blocked you that you are only a fan of former St Michaels players who play for Leinster. It’s a sad distinction at your age (you said you were 54) that you have not grown out of that yet but that’s your own business.

You come out with your usual uninformed and unsubstantiated guff about the player you are targeting. Player (A) is to dominant, player (A) has an unhealthy control on the group, player (A) is not the player he was, player (A) is to old etc etc. It is always done to get one of your favourites into the position of choice, in this case to get one of them installed as captain and the other one in as starting 10 in the big games.

Anyway feel free to write the utter drivel and I will continue to ask you to validate the points you are trying to make. You came up with a time frame that Sexton has been letting Leinster down in ie 2019-present and Sexton has only played for Leinster 11 times in that period of which we won 9 and lost to the same team Saracens on the two other occasions. Your classic go to move on here is to tell other posters they are playing the man not the ball, you definitely should know about that one anyway, targeting a player who has only played 11 games for Leinster in a 21 month period and saying he has been to dominant and controlling and often fails on the big occasions in that period. Pathetic stuff.

James Ryan or Dan Leavy don’t need any gobshites help on here to make it as Leinster captain they are both super grounded individuals and both are brilliant rugby players. Two guys that we (Leinster fans) can get behind and be proud of. If either become Leinster captain full time we will all get behind them and support them. Ross Byrne Is an excellent 10, probably why the coaches were confident of starting him for the league final 12 days ago, again he doesn’t need your help leading a campaign of drivel on here.

I’m done here now, it’s not fair on the other posters who have to see the two of us go back and forth like children and I know from your form that you just change the narrative when ever you are challenged on your absolute guff.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
Posts: 5183
Joined: April 10th, 2011, 10:23 am

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by Ruckedtobits »

OTT wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 5:14 am
backrower8 wrote:
September 23rd, 2020, 10:53 pm
Who told you you were funny? It’s not your fault. I hold them responsible.

Your diversionary blurb on forum etiquette is more BS. As the grown ups know I have focused on the Leinster Captaincy in my remarks. Fact is, his roles for Leinster and a largely Leinster-populated Ireland side are near mirror images of each other so the points I am making are relevant to both in largely equal measure.

I’ll take it that you want Johnny to Captain until he decides when he wants to go and that you believe that is best for Leinster. Suffice to say I don’t agree with for the reasons already stated.
Look, you started a thread and the grown ups (every other poster) gave you the benefit of the doubt and you reverted to type. You did what you always do, you introduced hyperbole bollix to try and bury a player while you campaigned for another player.

You have been making these type of posts for 14 years on here. Where you push your player for a particular thing, we are all Leinster fans on here but it is clear to almost anyone who hasn’t blocked you that you are only a fan of former St Michaels players who play for Leinster. It’s a sad distinction at your age (you said you were 54) that you have not grown out of that yet but that’s your own business.

You come out with your usual uninformed and unsubstantiated guff about the player you are targeting. Player (A) is to dominant, player (A) has an unhealthy control on the group, player (A) is not the player he was, player (A) is to old etc etc. It is always done to get one of your favourites into the position of choice, in this case to get one of them installed as captain and the other one in as starting 10 in the big games.

Anyway feel free to write the utter drivel and I will continue to ask you to validate the points you are trying to make. You came up with a time frame that Sexton has been letting Leinster down in ie 2019-present and Sexton has only played for Leinster 11 times in that period of which we won 9 and lost to the same team Saracens on the two other occasions. Your classic go to move on here is to tell other posters they are playing the man not the ball, you definitely should know about that one anyway, targeting a player who has only played 11 games for Leinster in a 21 month period and saying he has been to dominant and controlling and often fails on the big occasions in that period. Pathetic stuff.

James Ryan or Dan Leavy don’t need any gobshites help on here to make it as Leinster captain they are both super grounded individuals and both are brilliant rugby players. Two guys that we (Leinster fans) can get behind and be proud of. If either become Leinster captain full time we will all get behind them and support them. Ross Byrne Is an excellent 10, probably why the coaches were confident of starting him for the league final 12 days ago, again he doesn’t need your help leading a campaign of drivel on here.

I’m done here now, it’s not fair on the other posters who have to see the two of us go back and forth like children and I know from your form that you just change the narrative when ever you are challenged on your absolute guff.
+1
and not before time to read it rather than merely think it.

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

Very revealing OTT. A nasty and wildly conflating post driven by a deep-rooted personal dislike. I won’t call you a gobshite, or anything else.

You are unbelievably wrong on all bar two points. My age and one of my (main) school associations.

While delighted at their success, I am not a total advocate of St Michael’s rugby. I have stated here that I think they have gone too far with the rugby programme there. Schools that size should not have the level of emphasis and outputs, in terms of players, that it does. That’s my opinion. The balance is not right and that was one of the reasons that I did not send my sons there, breaking a family tradition. So I am not a blind advocate for the school.

Yes I did totally over-egg the success of the Alma mater on here. As more and more players came through I was more and more delighted in how the place had come full circle from how spirited but cr@p we were in my day to where they are now. I could go on to post stats developed elsewhere which point to them being the greatest producer of elite pros in the modern game globally, (Grey College are second) but I see how mentally brittle you are and won’t go there.

Point being, I reveled in their emergence and overdid it. I did atone for that on here and said I would not do so again and I have honored that. I am not sure when that was, at least over a year ago, but I will leave it to you to do the usual due diligence.

But that doesn’t mean I cannot comment on a player from there again on this board.

Given the number of former Michael’s players in the Leinster squad and the prominent roles of some, it is not possible to comment on this forum without occasionally mentioning some of them.

As regards Captaincy I have mentioned just 2 out of 14 and unsurprisingly, given their calibre, everyone else has them pegged as well. I also mentioned Rhys. I did not mention Luke or Ross Molony as others did. I don’t see them as the Club Captain we need for this crop of players that have let 2 Champions Cups slip through their hands in 2 years.

On the subject of Luke, I have lost faith in him being our petit general and, while it won’t happen with COVID, I would like to see the cheque book out for a world class 9. That is harsh on Luke, but it’s not his first rodeo (Newcastle had a big moment too) and I would like to see him as our number three to a new NIQ signing and JGP. Where did Luke go to school? Go figure.

This is soooooo not a campaign. Your anger playing tricks on you again. I was 100% prompted to start because I was thrown by Garry’s emergence in the role. Was anyone else expecting that? As I said, I like and admire him but, again, he is not what we need. He is not gritty enough.

You imply that I am angling for one of my own as Captain and as 10. I am not. I want a generational shift now, not in 2021/2.

Everyone else agrees that Ryan and Leavy are the outstanding candidates, regardless of school. But I haven’t pushed Leavy as he has hurdles to jump still AND I have pointed to the competition for places. I am NOT assuming he will return to form (or even to 7 successfully) or is guaranteed a place and so I have made that point and have not pushed for him Hardly the actions of a blindly biased old school boy? But you continue to ignore that with all the hate you possess if you want to.

I also have reservations about Ryan, still young and developing his game and I am not keen for him to be burdened with Captaincy too early in his career. He is also quieter, at least he has been up to know, but he showed us in Twickenham this year that that is changing. He has decided he wants to be the main man. Captain or not.

But, net-net, think he is probably the best choice For Leinster - again subject to what Andy Farrell may be thinking of doing. So I am not 100% about anyone, and there is a lot to be said for Rhys other than he and Leavy sharing the same problem as regards selection.

As for Championing Ross Byrne over Johnny again you are so WRONG and blindsided by your anger. I respect Ross as a guy who is maxing out on his abilities. But he is not the answer at 10. He may be able to be the #1 out-half for a while if he overtakes Johnny, but I don’t think he has enough to be the dominant 10 that we build the team around.

Frawley or Harry Byrne are the ones that really excite me in that position. Of course under your rules I am not allowed to approve of Harry for obvious reasons. BOD has called for Harry to overtake Ross this year on OTB.

So I will continue to post and if that includes positive or negative reference to any of the near 1 in 4 who have a school in common with me, so be it.

Good luck with the therapy.

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

Well, well, well. BOD on OTB saying Johnny “didn’t have one of his best games” on Saturday whereas Ross Byrne did “nothing wrong”. He was talking in the context of the passing of the torch to the “new bloods” and asked would we see both Ross and Harry Byrne being “integrated“ to the team more now for Johnny. This was in the context of Leinster.

Meanwhile on The 42 Rugby Weekly pod, Gavin Casey, Birch and Murray Kinsella spent a fair chunk of time discussing the succession Strategy at 10, mainly for Ireland albeit Ross was cited as the guy who is next up but not the long term answer. Murray was unequivocal about naming Harry as the main project 10 but questioned how he was going to get the minutes. So they see Ireland’s issues and likely solutions the same as Leinster's.

Where do these lads get their inspiration and disloyalty to “he who must be preserved at all costs” from? What do they know that you don’t OTT?

OTT
Mullet
Posts: 1519
Joined: February 2nd, 2012, 4:19 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by OTT »

Here I go, once more unto the breach.

Leinster have played 40 games since the start of 2019 (your really important time frame where Sexton let us down a lot in big occasions) Sexton has played in 11, Ross Byrne has played in 29 and Harry Byrne has played in 10. We won two leagues in that time and lost to Saracens twice in Europe.

All the fictional bollix you wrote about Sexton does not pass muster with the facts. You can keep writing new posts and spinning but it won’t change where you started from.

I am delighted to have a roster of Sexton, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne and Frawley going into the new season.

I know you like to have the last say, so I am expecting you to throw up a huge post which has nothing to do with what I wrote so fair play to you but I 100% won’t be replying to you this time even if you do your little thing where you call out a poster where you are misquoting them. Anyone who reads the thread can see where you started and ended up.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

User avatar
Oldschoolsocks
Isa Nacewa
Posts: 2530
Joined: January 4th, 2015, 10:36 am
Location: Stepping out of the Supernova

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

OTT wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 7:55 am
Here I go, once more unto the breach.

Leinster have played 40 games since the start of 2019 (your really important time frame where Sexton let us down a lot in big occasions) Sexton has played in 11, Ross Byrne has played in 29 and Harry Byrne has played in 10. We won two leagues in that time and lost to Saracens twice in Europe.

All the fictional bollix you wrote about Sexton does not pass muster with the facts. You can keep writing new posts and spinning but it won’t change where you started from.

I am delighted to have a roster of Sexton, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne and Frawley going into the new season.

I know you like to have the last say, so I am expecting you to throw up a huge post which has nothing to do with what I wrote so fair play to you but I 100% won’t be replying to you this time even if you do your little thing where you call out a poster where you are misquoting them. Anyone who reads the thread can see where you started and ended up.
#br8moveingthegoalposts

backrower8
Enlightened
Posts: 990
Joined: December 4th, 2006, 6:13 pm
Location: Blackrock

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by backrower8 »

Pot, kettle, black. There’s a pair of us at it here.

You got here coz you are blinded by a personal agenda and now trying to hide behind stats.

I didn't have anything to do with Drico’s narrative on Johnny’s position in the team on OTB. Listen back. And when you’re finished go to The 42 Rugby Weekly’s latest edition where the 3 lads addressed it.

Johnny is one of Leinster’s greatest ever players and our best ever 10. He isn’t a busted flush, but he’s 35 and he’s slipping and blocking the development of others and the team.

As for your stats. The currency that we judge our team on in these years are Champions Cups Stars. We all know what has happened in the last 16 months when it mattered most. Johnny is a huge part of our set up and our set up hasn’t been good enough when it mattered. He is 35 and it’s time to restructure our set up and not keep doing the same thing with the same people.

Our whole style and patterns need to evolve. Particularly as regards two playmakers in the backline. That needs to be developed with the personnel who will make it work for the next 10 years, not the last 10.

We are in different sort of succession holes at 1, 4, 9 and 15. Three of those due to age. At least Leo called time on Rob soon after the RWC even though he had a decent tournament himself. He didn’t wait too long, even though it must have been tempting this last month. We don’t have the personnel at 1 to do the same with Cian. We might as regards Dev but, despite the 4 St Michael’s locks, I think we need to sign some S.African or Polynesian bruiser.

So that’s me, the Michael’s fanatic, calling for Luke’s demotion; a new 2nd row to come in alongside Ryan & ahead of Baird/Molony/Dunne and I have already said Ross B is only a temporary answer at 10 and Leavy can’t be handed Captaincy partly coz of competition for places. While I am at it, I also fancy Dan Sheehan to become the #1 hooker with Kelleher #2.

I am sorry you won’t be responding to the points I have made about the need to dilute Johnny out, starting with the Captaincy. Of course, somebody else might take up the running for you.

User avatar
fourthirtythree
Rob Kearney
Posts: 9478
Joined: April 12th, 2008, 11:33 pm
Location: Eight miles high

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by fourthirtythree »

Leinster's Captaincy Options? They have a lot of them.

All good.

I'm done here.
Datta: what have we given?
My friend, blood shaking my heart
The awful daring of a moment's surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract
What the thunder said to Brian Lenihan

User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
Posts: 22888
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 3:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business
Contact:

Re: Leinster’s Captaincy Options

Post by Dave Cahill »

fourthirtythree wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 9:44 am
Leinster's Captaincy Options? They have a lot of them.

All good.
+1
I have Bumbleflex

Post Reply