Heineken Cup 2020/21

[Ruckedtobits]

Montpellier 32-22 La Rochelle; Toulon 44-10 Toulouse.

Europe Cup Finalists get hangovers.

[tingman]

LAR had the Junior B's out.

[Oldschool]

It's tran keel

Tron Key.

What he said is incomprehensible to a French speaker who doesn't have good English.

Yeah that's better again.

[Twist]

I can’t be the only one who thought the final was shite? So much attrition, so little imagination

[riocard911]

All I could think about was what a difference a kicker makes. West was on the money against us - the drop goal a real boost for them, just when they needed it. Today vs Toulouse he missed two penos and a conversion, leaving eight points out there in a game which finished 22-17.

[Hippo]

I can’t be the only one who thought the final was shite? So much attrition, so little imagination

It was a desperate match.

[Dexter]

I can’t be the only one who thought the final was shite? So much attrition, so little imagination

It was a desperate match.

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

[alanair]

I can’t be the only one who thought the final was shite? So much attrition, so little imagination

It was a desperate match.

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

It was bad ok, but In fairness, the match was probably no worse than our Final in Bilbao V Racing.... different when you have 'skin in the game'

[MylesNaGapoleen]

It was a desperate match.

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

It was bad ok, but In fairness, the match was probably no worse than our Final in Bilbao V Racing.... different when you have 'skin in the game'

Most finals are drab,
quarter & semi finals weekends always throw up the better games. With the exception, maybe of Leinster V Saints in 2011...which was a classic.

[Blueberry]

It was a desperate match.

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

It was bad ok, but In fairness, the match was probably no worse than our Final in Bilbao V Racing.... different when you have 'skin in the game'

Good point - certainly similar to the Bilbao final.....neither match a thing of beauty but we loved Bilbao and I'm sure Toulouse ain't bothered. Was always likely to be a slug fest.

You have to hand it to Toulouse though - LAR had two gilt edged close (smash it over from 2 meters) goal line chances and Toulouse had just about the physicality to keep em out - in essence what we didn't do. If LAR had got over for those two chances hard to see them not winning even with 14.

[Flash Gordon]

I can’t be the only one who thought the final was shite? So much attrition, so little imagination

It was a desperate match.

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

Yes because they often play with fear. You see that in the performances of away teams in the Top 14 too. Understand there's a lot at risk but one of the things we used to hammer into minis when i was coaching was to use the space. Toulouse had a man over and kept it close in throughout the match against a massive physical force. They could quite easily have lost that game.

[fourthirtythree]

Mad that Toulouse stayed so narrow. For all the cooing about the lovely long pass by Ntamack for the try, if they had Sexton they'd have won by more.

[hugonaut]

It was a desperate match.

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

Yes because they often play with fear. You see that in the performances of away teams in the Top 14 too. Understand there's a lot at risk but one of the things we used to hammer into minis when i was coaching was to use the space. Toulouse had a man over and kept it close in throughout the match against a massive physical force. They could quite easily have lost that game.

The absolutely crux of it. They are a skilful team with backs and forwards who can handle the ball extremely well, and they had phenomenal pace on either wing. And yet they decided to ignore the advantages that they had [the extra space caused by Botia's dismissal, the extra tiredness caused by 14 men trying to do 15 mens' jobs, the extra stress put on enormous forwards having to cover wider expanses of ground] and play into La Rochelle's strengths because they got scared and overly cautious.

[IanD]

It was but predictably so. Look back at all the ko games involving 2 french sides, they're rarely much good.

Yes because they often play with fear. You see that in the performances of away teams in the Top 14 too. Understand there's a lot at risk but one of the things we used to hammer into minis when i was coaching was to use the space. Toulouse had a man over and kept it close in throughout the match against a massive physical force. They could quite easily have lost that game.

The absolutely crux of it. They are a skilful team with backs and forwards who can handle the ball extremely well, and they had phenomenal pace on either wing. And yet they decided to ignore the advantages that they had [the extra space caused by Botia's dismissal, the extra tiredness caused by 14 men trying to do 15 mens' jobs, the extra stress put on enormous forwards having to cover wider expanses of ground] and play into La Rochelle's strengths because they got scared and overly cautious.

I spent much of the game shouting "Space not Face".

Something that is drilled into kids as soon as they start playing and Toulouse seemed to forget it as a principal.

[Twist]

I couldn't help but wonder how we'd have fared against Toulouse. They didn't look that special.

I agree that the kicking of West was a big difference between the SF and Final for LAR. This really feels like a missed opportunity, but we need to find a way to match or cope with enormous physicality on the days where we aren't being totally clinical.

[Flash Gordon]

I couldn't help but wonder how we'd have fared against Toulouse. They didn't look that special.

I agree that the kicking of West was a big difference between the SF and Final for LAR. This really feels like a missed opportunity, but we need to find a way to match or cope with enormous physicality on the days where we aren't being totally clinical.

I was thinking the same. If they'd played like that I think we would have beaten them but we didn't beat La Roch and we weren't there. In answer to what we need to do to beat big teams use pace and space, keep the ball and be clinical!

[Ruckedtobits]

I couldn't help but wonder how we'd have fared against Toulouse. They didn't look that special.

I agree that the kicking of West was a big difference between the SF and Final for LAR. This really feels like a missed opportunity, but we need to find a way to match or cope with enormous physicality on the days where we aren't being totally clinical.

I was thinking the same. If they'd played like that I think we would have beaten them but we didn't beat La Roch and we weren't there. In answer to what we need to do to beat big teams use pace and space, keep the ball and be clinical!

The LAR hooker and, on two occasions, Victor Vito, showed how to take on huge packs. Essentially, it was based on a three-step approach, viz:

1. Quick double short pass from breakdown;
2. Ball carrier uses footwork to shape to go outside opponent but switches his line inside, driving diagonally back against a tackler who is unbalanced;
3. Carrier punches on a line towards the pocket behind original breakdown and fights to, gets his arms through & then offloads inside or outside.

That all happens almost simultaneously and repeatedly, notably against big players whose lateral mobility is limited. A key element is that big muscular forwards have limited lateral defensive mobility and even more limited ability to turn and cover half-breaks. Interestingly on Saturday there were numerous examples of defenders tackling supporting players who never received a pass because the initial ball carrier didn't get the pass away. Most of these tackles went unpunished.

Toulouse also did it to LAR, right from the opening minutes, notably the break on the right-side by Keino releasing Elstade. Baille did it several times later in the game as did Clos. Both of these guys are very strong and Ruddock, Healy and Kelleher are our equivalent carriers. However, both Toulouse & LAR do it with the benefit of a very quick starting pass from SH, which is key to this form of repeated attack which must be done before the defensive line is perfectly set.

Having started to pierce the defensive line, the opposition then tightens the line or double-stacks it, I.e. a second line of defenders between the front line. This in turn provides space out wider which showed particularly in the LAR defence on Saturday and was highlighted by A Healey in commentary.

By using such tactics, we could create line breaks, hopefully leading to tries. Once you can get 10+ points ahead of teams like Toulouse & LAR, they have to change tactics to chase the game and take risks to become more offensive, rather than merely play "kick-tennis" to gain territory.

Leinster's strength in the past three seasons has stemmed in many instances from our ability to produce line-break strikes from our set-pieces. This becomes harder as we go up a level to European knock-out games. The tactics described above need repeated rehearsal, in match situations and we must adapt our game plans in Interpros & Pro14 games to get better and better at these skills.

These skills are the sort of tactics that the ABS have used against SA & England over the past two decades. When the tactic is unsuccessful, the ABs lose games to these teams. It is tough, hard work and the attrition rate is significant. But it doesn't require bigger and bigger players just better and better carriers.

[Beltza]

I couldn't help but wonder how we'd have fared against Toulouse. They didn't look that special.

I agree that the kicking of West was a big difference between the SF and Final for LAR. This really feels like a missed opportunity, but we need to find a way to match or cope with enormous physicality on the days where we aren't being totally clinical.

I was thinking the same. If they'd played like that I think we would have beaten them but we didn't beat La Roch and we weren't there. In answer to what we need to do to beat big teams use pace and space, keep the ball and be clinical!

I was behind the LR goal line in the second half, and Toulouse had them on a string with the quick recycling and stretching the defence. The LR pack was pretty much walking at about 55 minutes, and there was so much space wide, but Toulouse didn't really try to use it. They should have scored a few tries with that, but seemed determined to blow it.

[Xanthippe]

Mad that Toulouse stayed so narrow. For all the cooing about the lovely long pass by Ntamack for the try, if they had Sexton they'd have won by more.

Or Byrne the Elder - just imagine the damage he could have done with his cross field kicks

[fourthirtythree]

Mad that Toulouse stayed so narrow. For all the cooing about the lovely long pass by Ntamack for the try, if they had Sexton they'd have won by more.

Or Byrne the Elder - just imagine the damage he could have done with his cross field kicks

Point.