Pro 14 2020-2021 season

[Sugary tae]

The 4 provinces are there to provide players for the national team. Outside success Of each province is nice (And helps bring more cash in!!) but the 6 nations (And associated sponsorship) pays 70% of the wages of the Irish players.
The welsh and Scottish are effectively the same.

The prl English clubs actively try to undermine the rfu. Only play English players because they’re paid to.

If we were dealing with the rfu I’d have much less issue but megalomaniacs like the owners of bath sale Saracens Bristol etc are treating the clubs like playthings. They’d happily inflate the wages. It’s already a major issue for the welsh and Scottish.


Hopefully this will work.

[Blueberry]

Well you may like it but I think the average Leinster supporter would much rather a game in the Durban summer sunshine against the Sharks. Particularly in the depths of Irish winter.

South Africa being involved brings considerable TV money and improves the standard of the League. More so than playing Exeter or Sale or Newcastle.

We get to play the English sides in Europe so why are you creaming yourself over playing them on a more regular basis? Bragging rights? Give me a break. It’s the depths of monotony and exhibits signs of Stockholm syndrome like the Welsh show to the Brits to think we need a British and Irish league.

In short why would we want to make ourselves the captives of a far larger and more established partner? Why not expand externally instead of joining them and being defeatist about it. Far more upside in expanding the pro 14

Jesus who rattled your cage.................if you think I'm motivated by having 'bragging rights' over the English you're on the wrong page. Maybe just questioning why we can't consolidate the best of Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English rugby into a mutually agreed competitive league rather than flying half way round the world to play club rugby. Also suggest you look up what Stockholm Syndrome means ? When I last checked Ireland was an independent country and not a captive of the 'English'. I'm certainly not planning on developing a psychological bond with Exeter or Saracens.

Why would forming a B&I league be defeatist ?? As I said it would only be something that would work if it worked for all parties. If the English just wanted it as an English league with the Paddies and the Welshies allowed in for a bit of craic it's hardly going to work is it and no one is going to agree to it.

Might I suggest a touch of an inferiority complex in your post......

Personally I love the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh rivalry and have doubts about the long term sustainability in the world in which we now live of flying half way around the world to play club rugby that's it !!

No issue of course with the league bring expanded and improving quality - but think there may be other ways to do it.

Perhaps the 'average' Leinster fan might also have an issue with coughing up a huge amount of cash to get to Durban.......nice and all as it is.....

Anyway have a good evening.......

You’re harking back to the 1800’s where we were under the tutelage of the English. Joining a league with them being pay masters would be suicide for the Irish provinces. You are harking back to bygone era that was left behind for good reason.

Why would we want to rejoin the English commercially, culturally and sportingly? It smacks of defeatism and lacks self esteem in our own ability to compete with them as a separate entity.

I think you’re trolling and looking to arouse a response to which you then call the questioner a rabid nationalist or far right extremist. Good attempt!

Despite your suspicious mind not trolling............'harking back to the 1800's where we under the tutelage of the English' - are you serious ?? I'm just suggesting playing them in Rugby....and having a local B&I league with the very best in these two islands going at each other.

For me if structured correctly it would be the ideal. But each to their own.

You just seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder as soon as the word English is mentioned - exactly how would a league of teams (if it could be agreed by all on agreeable terms) be 'rejoining the English commercially, culturally etc etc etc' WTF ???? - it's just playing the best rugby teams in your reasonably close geographic area and hey when I last looked at it Rugby is kinda a big thing in these two islands and we are all pretty good at it....I'm not exactly sure how it's defeatist or lacking in self esteem either ??? What ???? - I think Irish Rugby has made a touch of mark since it's gone professional and talk to anyone in 'England' who has a drop of rugby knowledge (outside of their crappy press) and they ain't exactly shitting all over Leinster.....in fact the only absolute cr@p I've heard about Leinster comes from some Welsh fans or our red friends down south. If a B&I league ever came about I would have a modicum of credit to the stupid Paddies, Idiotic Scot's and moronic Welsh not to fall over backwards and doth their cap to the lords and ladies of the English aristocracy and thank you melord for the privilege of playing the mighty Saxons. If the English weren't going to play ball on a fair structure I think we might have the intelligence to tell them where to get off......

If you are happy with a new league structure with the SA teams that's fine, and really I'm all for improving the quality of the league it's great but and perhaps it's a slightly naive view when I read some of the stuff on here but just wondering in this day and age flying up and down to SA is it wise, sustainable and really something that will last and had simply expressed an opinion that is a B&I league really not the ideal solution ? Politics and chips left aside....which may of course just not be possible......

Suggest we end it here as honestly I'm regretting even mentioning England.

[Oldschool]

TBF to England.
There's a big difference between the RFU and the GP.
It's also worth remembering that in the early 70s (72, I think) Scotland and Wales refused to show up for their 5Ns games against us in Lansdowne Road.
The following season the English did travel and deservedly got a standing ovation. Wasn't the only thing they got.
Engaging in a B&I with the RFU might be something to be considered but you would have to exclude clubs affiliated to the GP.
The reason being that the GP's interests simply aren't aligned with ours or indeed the RFU's.

As an aside does anyone have any idea who the kingmakers are in the SA initial involvement and this far bigger second "wave"

[Wanderers FC]

I think we can be certain that the English clubs wouldn’t want to compete on a level playing field. There was talk recently of removing the salary cap completely for English clubs and getting in wealthy owners.

They resolve their problems over there with more money. We don’t. There are very real ideological differences in how we deal with problems and come up with solutions. So much so that I would say our interests aren’t aligned together or apart. There is a gulf in how we view the world.

Does that mean we go it alone? I believe so. Our provinces structure is much more similar to the makeup of the SA super rugby teams. They operate more like provinces as opposed to clubs who can get players from anywhere.

[johng]

I adore the rivalry in these islands - just look at the 5/6 nations for the never ending brilliance......of everyone trying to kick seven shades of sh1t out of England.......

Rugby is kinda a big thing in these two islands and we are all pretty good at it

Much better. My favourite name for them too. Sorry for picking on you but that other term just winds me up. Also people who insist that it is "just a gegraphical term"

Why not just keep calling Pearse st Great Britain st or Laois and Offaly Kings county and Queens county etc. etc.

Anyway. moving along. My issue is not with England at all. The vast majority of English people I meet are sound as a Euro. My issue as stated elsewhere is the fact that their Rugby is governed differently.

I just want to watch Rugby. Not welded to any structure over any other really.

For me the balance is between...... The batshit mentalness of playing in a League with 10s of thousands of KM between the participants and the mess involved in trying to merge the different governing strategies of the Current Pro14 and Premiership.

Let's face it the Welsh are unhapy in our league as they have a hybrid of both systems and "Regional" Rugby fans want to get rid of the WRU out of the equation.

You have a valid point in wanting a B&I league. I wouldn't hate it. Just currently for me the balance is with crazy kms over joining the Nigels.

As someone else said. If the RFU were in charge it would be different.

[Blueberry]

I adore the rivalry in these islands - just look at the 5/6 nations for the never ending brilliance......of everyone trying to kick seven shades of sh1t out of England.......

Rugby is kinda a big thing in these two islands and we are all pretty good at it

Much better. My favourite name for them too. Sorry for picking on you but that other term just winds me up. Also people who insist that it is "just a gegraphical term"

Why not just keep calling Pearse st Great Britain st or Laois and Offaly Kings county and Queens county etc. etc.

Anyway. moving along. My issue is not with England at all. The vast majority of English people I meet are sound as a Euro. My issue as stated elsewhere is the fact that their Rugby is governed differently.

I just want to watch Rugby. Not welded to any structure over any other really.

For me the balance is between...... The batshit mentalness of playing in a League with 10s of thousands of KM between the participants and the mess involved in trying to merge the different governing strategies of the Current Pro14 and Premiership.

Let's face it the Welsh are unhapy in our league as they have a hybrid of both systems and "Regional" Rugby fans want to get rid of the WRU out of the equation.

You have a valid point in wanting a B&I league. I wouldn't hate it. Just currently for me the balance is with crazy kms over joining the Nigels.

As someone else said. If the RFU were in charge it would be different.

This thread has turned very interesting - a cultural washing machine for all things Anglo-Irish and associated baggage !!

Not a bother BTW - British Isles is something I had engrained into me by my (Irish) geography teacher and as far as I know it is still a valid geographic term for these islands (And yes I know that is controversial so don't shoot me !!) - it's something I have used over the years and don't really think about it. It's obvious some people are uncomfortable with it and that's fine too. Has never bothered me personally -but will avoid using it !! Part of me does wonder though that maybe at this stage (after decades of being an independent country and with a peace process well sorted now) can we try an move on from this stuff and not be so sensitive - I doubt for example is anyone in the UK flipping out anytime the 'Irish Sea' is mentioned !!

It's a bit like I suppose, everytime some moron in the British press claims an Irish person who just won something as British - we all go batshit crazy and I just go whatever - another moron who has forgotten Ireland is an independent country !! In a way though it's kinda okay......when it's all said and done the people in these two islands have a lot more in common than we have that separates us...........and it's kinda amusing seeing English people being all confused when we are cheering on Azerbaijan or Ghana in tiddlewinks or lawn darts just because they are playing the English......they don't get it !! In reverse they are cheering for us....

Anyway enough of all that sh**te..........

Think you are 100% correct in your assessment of the current situation !! It really is a bit of a mess and there isn't really an ideal solution for a million reasons already stated. Like yourself just want to watch a competitive league but yes there are serious issues with the AP and the money men and this fixit solution of flying up and down to SA yes will improve quality but it is absolutely nuts.

It would be lovely if a bit more common sense was involved but it's a rare commodity ATM !!

[riocard911]

Jamison Gibson Park in his pre-Dragons-match presser mentioned an aspect of the Pro 14, which hasn't as yet come up in this discussion. When asked to compare the Prem, Top 14 and "Pro Whateveryou'rehavingyerself" (copyright DC) he pointed to the travel to foreign lands as being something that adds to our competition's attraction for him. Sure, JGP is from NZ and is hoping to see as much of Europe as he can while a Leinster player. That said, consider players in England and France. If they don't make their respective national teams, the only chance they get to play outside their own jurisdictions are occasional matches in the Heino or the Challenge cup. In contrast Pro 14 players get to travel to four other countries. Friday nights in Rodney Parade in the rain are nothing to write home about, it's true. But a ten day or two week jaunt once a season to South Africa and play rugby there? If I were slugging it out in the familiar home environment of the Prem or the Top 14, I reckon I'd be a little bit jealous of the Celtic Cousins.

[Wanderers FC]

Anything to be said for the organisers expanding further and getting 2 Argie sides set up and based in Spain to join? That would really make my day if that were to happen. It would certainly add the boon of travelling to Spain twice a year in the depths of winter!

[Dave Cahill]

Anything to be said for the organisers expanding further and getting 2 Argie sides set up and based in Spain to join? That would really make my day if that were to happen. It would certainly add the boon of travelling to Spain twice a year in the depths of winter!

About as much as there would be to be said for Leinster joining the Gallagher Premiership and basing themselves in Stoke.

[Blueberry]

Anything to be said for the organisers expanding further and getting 2 Argie sides set up and based in Spain to join? That would really make my day if that were to happen. It would certainly add the boon of travelling to Spain twice a year in the depths of winter!

About as much as there would be to be said for Leinster joining the Gallagher Premiership and basing themselves in Stoke.

Maybe so....but I do like the idea of heading off to Malaga instead of Rodney Parade....we should give this some airtime....

[Oldschool]

Argentina could and should start looking at the possibilities up North of them.
That's surely where the future ultimately is for them.

[Dave Cahill]

Cardiff Blues' Josh Turnball sent to bed without any pudding by George Clancy for doing a shoulder naughty against Zebre

[Twist]

Benetton’s improvement seems to be continuing apace. They gave Ulster serious problems tonight.

[riocard911]

I thought Tommy O'Brien gave a seriously impressive performance and hope Frawley makes a full recovery; that was an awful knee to the head he managed due to poor tackle technique to incur from Jamie Roberts.

[riocard911]

The biggest pain about this new season is gonna be the continuous speculation re places on the Lions tour to SA by rugby pundits on tv, radio and in print. It's a load of hot air and wasted column inches that drives me bonkers, 'cos any one of the prospective candidates can get crocked before the tour party even gets on the plane. On top of that, Leinster and their fortunes in the Pro 14 and particularly the Heino are way more important than to me, than if the BIL manage to beat the Saffers, Kiwis, Diggers or not. And if the price of it is the likes of James Ryan coming back knackered or injured, then I'd prefer if our fellas never went at all. Personally I'd love if Gatland took Itoje and the "wolf pack" etc. with him and left our Leinster players at home. I'm sure BT and Sky commentariat would be thrilled also.

[Twist]

The biggest pain about this new season is gonna be the continuous speculation re places on the Lions tour to SA by rugby pundits on tv, radio and in print. It's a load of hot air and wasted column inches that drives me bonkers, 'cos any one of the prospective candidates can get crocked before the tour party even gets on the plane. On top of that, Leinster and their fortunes in the Pro 14 and particularly the Heino are way more important than to me, than if the BIL manage to beat the Saffers, Kiwis, Diggers or not. And if the price of it is the likes of James Ryan coming back knackered or injured, then I'd prefer if our fellas never went at all. Personally I'd love if Gatland took Itoje and the "wolf pack" etc. with him and left our Leinster players at home. I'm sure BT and Sky commentariat would be thrilled also.

I don't think I've ever agreed with a post more. I'll be watching the Lions, of course, but I'm happy for other teams' players to donate their bodies to it.

[riocard911]

Munster achieve a miracle win vs the Scarlets in Scarletania!!! They'd managed to pull the match back with 10 mins to go to 24-17 with a converted try by Farrell, only for PO'M to be redcarded - he'd already seen a yellow in the first half for an idiotic shoulder charge - for elbowing Jake Ball in the face on the ground after the try has been scored. 0.5p converts the ensuing peno from the half way spot - 27-17. Munster subsequently score a drive over try off a five yard line out plus conversion - 27-27. In the dying second of the match, James Davis gets pinged off his feet at the ruck. Ben Healy, Munster's replacement outhalf, manages to slot it over from just inside his own half. Talk about getting out of jail. For most of the match the Southern cousins looked like they'd be travelling home pointless. Hopefully this game will encourage Van Graan to play Munsters youngsters more, 'cos they made all the difference when they got on the pitch.

[riocard911]

Munster achieve a miracle win vs the Scarlets in Scarletania!!! They'd managed to pull the match back with 10 mins to go to 24-17 with a converted try by Farrell, only for PO'M to be redcarded - he'd already seen a yellow in the first half for an idiotic shoulder charge - for elbowing Jake Ball in the face on the ground after the try has been scored. 0.5p converts the ensuing peno from the half way spot - 27-17. Munster subsequently score a peno and a drive over try off a five yard line out plus conversion - 27-27. In the dying seconds of the match, James Davis gets pinged off his feet at the ruck. Ben Healy, Munster's replacement outhalf, manages to slot it over from just inside his own half. Talk about getting out of jail. For most of the match the Southern cousins looked like they'd be travelling home pointless. Hopefully this game will encourage Van Graan to play Munsters youngsters more, 'cos they made all the difference when they got on the pitch.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

So the ref in the Connacht game just gave a penalty for throwing a player across the lineout...

[Ruckedtobits]

So the Final is on the 27th March, a week after we face England in Aviva. That's got to be Leo's major focus over the next three weeks. There are major challenges in trying to put together a coherent Squad for what is almost a 'one-off' Final of our primary competition.

Plus Points
* Our entire first choice backline and halfbacks have been playing together with Ireland.
* Our front-row (5 of them) have been in Irish camp together and have almost certainly worked as a unit during this period.
* Our back-row players (JVdF, Connors, Ruddock, Conan, Doris) have been together, on and off, over the past seven weeks and hopefully Doris has recovered from his head injury.
* Baird has joined Ryan as an international second-row

Other than Doris, none of our players have picked up an injury of any significance.

Negative Points
Luke McGrath has been the driving force of Leinster since Christmas. Leaving him out of the starting team would detract from our overall cohesion. Others like Dave Kearney, Josh Murphy, and Scott Penny have been central to our momentum also, will they just be discarded? Fardy & Dev are proven big match competitors but will not have worked with Kelleher for almost three months, do they also get left on the sidelines?

Overall
It is not being too presumptive at this point to look at the planning required for this Final. We have had a fine season thus far, but this is a one-off knock-out game and Munster know that it gives them a unique opportunity to grab their first trophy in a decade.

Leo, Stuart, Felipe and McBride have a great depth of experience but they will have a maximum of two field sessions to prepare a team for this game. Depending on the Irish results against Scotland & England, they may have to lift the spirits or focus the minds. Neither is an easy job in a short training week.

These challenges will dominate the thinking and planning of the next fortnight. Obviously, injuries, even small knocks, will play a part, but preparing the mindset of all the players, inside & outside Irish camp, is the biggest task on the horizon.