Pro 14 2020-2021 season

[wixfjord]

Africa is the second biggest region in the world for beer sales and South Africa is the second biggest market in Africa and also the second biggest stout market in Africa. So I think they would see the market as a huge opportunity. From the League's perspective it also gives them leverage when title sponsorship comes up for renegotiation.

So I've a good bit of inside info on this, and while Africa as a continent is huge (albeit not nearly as lucrative as China, Brazil, US or Europe), SA is not a priority market for the Guinness brand at the moment.

They're currently less than 1% of beer market there and production is outsourced.

The Guinness market in Africa is based around countries like Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon etc. Not rugby strongholds.

Whatever the reasons for bringing in SA teams, selling loads more Guinness in SA isn't a main driver behind it.

[Dave Cahill]

Unless they want to start selling loads more Guinness, use the Prowhatever as the beachhead, like Rabodirect did in Ireland

[riocard911]

the very best of British Isles Rugby

Less controversial alternatives for the British Isles include "Britain and Ireland", "Atlantic Archipelago", "Anglo-Celtic Isles", the "British-Irish Isles" and the Islands of the North Atlantic. In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands"

+1

[dropkick]

I'm not in favour of a B&I league and don't think it would work. We saw what happened when the English changed the format of the HEC. Different ownership models too and they'd see the celts as being invited into their league as guests.


Another potential benefit of the SA's coming on board is insurance. The Welsh would leave at the drop of a hat so they cannot be relied on. At least with more countries you can always have a good league even if one country drops out. I dont think the english want to subsidise the welsh but they do use the Welsh as useful pawns every so often.


We're yet to see what it would mean financially. The Kings and Cheetahs was worth €6m to the league if I recall correctly. Who knows how much more the big 4 will be worth. The rand is weak but its a big country and matches will be on at good times for the SA fans.

[Dave Cahill]

The Welsh would leave at the drop of a hat so they cannot be relied on.

The Welsh can't leave. They have no where to go - there is no escape route across the Severn. Everyone knows it, even those who refuse to acknowledge it.

[Sugary tae]

Hi lads

Munster supporter here. Just interesting in reading the thoughts re the expansion of the league.

My own thoughts are this suits the irfu down to the ground. I think while a B&I league sounds good in theory In the longer term they would entirely cannibalise us. Why would any Irish player stay at home when they could play for bigger money and the same league. I think the lessons of recent Heineken cup negotiations have been learnt well. The prl would destroy us in a few years swooping up all the layer of players under the top 20 internationals.

The biggest test here will be after a few years will the provinces be putting out their best 15 for big games v the bulls and stormers etc or European games. Potentially this could be more lucrative.

Guinness is Diageo isn’t it? Plenty of other brands there to advertise to a nation who like their tipple.

Ultimately I think this will give more games at a higher level for all the Irish teams. The pro14 had the fastest ruck time for the last few years in Europe with only super rugby faster. I think our players being exposed to high class opponents will bring them on.

SARU won’t be easy bedfellows but the Scots and welsh haven’t been fun either. The stronger the league is the less likely they are to be tempted to the premiership etc.

[cormac]

Why do some posters think that players in England earn more than players in Ireland? There's probably a handful of marquee players on big wages in England but, given the salary cap, I'd wager there's next to no difference between the average salaries.

If you included the tax rebate that players in the ROI can claim on retirement it's particularly fanciful to think that loads of players would leave.

[Blueberry]

the very best of British Isles Rugby

Less controversial alternatives for the British Isles include "Britain and Ireland", "Atlantic Archipelago", "Anglo-Celtic Isles", the "British-Irish Isles" and the Islands of the North Atlantic. In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands"

And we wonder why we have problems............

[Blueberry]

Hi lads

Munster supporter here. Just interesting in reading the thoughts re the expansion of the league.

My own thoughts are this suits the irfu down to the ground. I think while a B&I league sounds good in theory In the longer term they would entirely cannibalise us. Why would any Irish player stay at home when they could play for bigger money and the same league. I think the lessons of recent Heineken cup negotiations have been learnt well. The prl would destroy us in a few years swooping up all the layer of players under the top 20 internationals.

The biggest test here will be after a few years will the provinces be putting out their best 15 for big games v the bulls and stormers etc or European games. Potentially this could be more lucrative.

Guinness is Diageo isn’t it? Plenty of other brands there to advertise to a nation who like their tipple.

Ultimately I think this will give more games at a higher level for all the Irish teams. The pro14 had the fastest ruck time for the last few years in Europe with only super rugby faster. I think our players being exposed to high class opponents will bring them on.

SARU won’t be easy bedfellows but the Scots and welsh haven’t been fun either. The stronger the league is the less likely they are to be tempted to the premiership etc.

Interesting post !!

Would be interested in people's views on 'in an ideal world' what type of league would be the best ????

For me it's pretty simple a league with the best Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English teams knocking seven shades of sh1t out of each other in a two division format with Promo and Relegation etc - I adore the rivalry in these islands - just look at the 5/6 nations for the never ending brilliance......of everyone trying to kick seven shades of sh1t out of England.......

Not knocking the news of improving the league by bringing these SA teams in but I just don't see it being a long term solution due to the travel.

There seems to be this absolute 'given rule' that the English would try and take over, steal our players and feck it all up. Maybe so but where is this coming from ? Bar the usual well them and the French don't value the Pro 14 etc etc etc.........

Also why would Irish players be 'destroyed' by the English teams - Irish players stay in Ireland and play for Irish provinces as they want to play for the national side and are well looked after - every single major Irish player could be making more in France right now but stay for these reasons.

Any English rugby fans I talk to are well aware that the Premiership is limited and could do with a new format, they too have had a predictable league in recent years with teams just making up the numbers and they look across the water in envy at what Leinster have done........(despite the English gutter media rubbish trying to make excuses by saying that Leinster can rest players etc etc and the PRO 14 is cr@p etc etc)

We do seem to have this view that 'The English' would just be out to get us and feck us over...........perhaps it's time to be a touch more confident....and a little less 1916. Any B&I league is only going to work if it was negotiated to suit all, if the English want it there own way it's never going to happen anyway.

Look it's all idle speculation as it ain't happening but I'm just looking at this from the angle of what would be the ideal !!

[leinsterforever]

Relegation would be a non-starter for a B&I format. Imagine a province got relegated and thus didn't get to play interpros the following season.

The English teams wouldn't be long getting annoyed at continually losing to Leinster and Munster if that came to pass. Look at what Munster did away to Gloucester a while back. The quality in the Prem isn't great outside Saracens and Exeter. Would they start advocating for a salary cap? How would you even measure it? The union vs club model is two in some ways incompatible systems.

Finally, what would it do to the European Cup?

[Blueberry]

Relegation would be a non-starter for a B&I format. Imagine a province got relegated and thus didn't get to play interpros the following season.

The English teams wouldn't be long getting annoyed at continually losing to Leinster and Munster if that came to pass. Look at what Munster did away to Gloucester a while back. The quality in the Prem isn't great outside Saracens and Exeter. Would they start advocating for a salary cap? How would you even measure it? The union vs club model is two in some ways incompatible systems.

Finally, what would it do to the European Cup?

Wouldn't bother me if we missed an Interpro - getting bored endlessly beating Munster at this stage.............would rather a trip to Sandy Park !!

[tingman]

the very best of British Isles Rugby

Less controversial alternatives for the British Isles include "Britain and Ireland", "Atlantic Archipelago", "Anglo-Celtic Isles", the "British-Irish Isles" and the Islands of the North Atlantic. In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands"

Hope that includes Rockall

[Blueberry]

the very best of British Isles Rugby

Less controversial alternatives for the British Isles include "Britain and Ireland", "Atlantic Archipelago", "Anglo-Celtic Isles", the "British-Irish Isles" and the Islands of the North Atlantic. In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands"

Hope that includes Rockall

Forgot about Rockall - who is claiming that now !! Do the dastardly Brits still lay claim to it ?? Is it part the Brussels Brexit talks ? Perhaps the Argies should move in there as a quid pro quo for the Falklands and enter the Pro 14........we might lose Felipe though.

[Wanderers FC]

Relegation would be a non-starter for a B&I format. Imagine a province got relegated and thus didn't get to play interpros the following season.

The English teams wouldn't be long getting annoyed at continually losing to Leinster and Munster if that came to pass. Look at what Munster did away to Gloucester a while back. The quality in the Prem isn't great outside Saracens and Exeter. Would they start advocating for a salary cap? How would you even measure it? The union vs club model is two in some ways incompatible systems.

Finally, what would it do to the European Cup?

Wouldn't bother me if we missed an Interpro - getting bored endlessly beating Munster at this stage.............would rather a trip to Sandy Park !!

Well you may like it but I think the average Leinster supporter would much rather a game in the Durban summer sunshine against the Sharks. Particularly in the depths of Irish winter.

South Africa being involved brings considerable TV money and improves the standard of the League. More so than playing Exeter or Sale or Newcastle.

We get to play the English sides in Europe so why are you creaming yourself over playing them on a more regular basis? Bragging rights? Give me a break. It’s the depths of monotony and exhibits signs of Stockholm syndrome like the Welsh show to the Brits to think we need a British and Irish league.

In short why would we want to make ourselves the captives of a far larger and more established partner? Why not expand externally instead of joining them and being defeatist about it. Far more upside in expanding the pro 14

[LeinsterLeader]

From the Times:

Leinster Rugby may lose half annual €18m income without gate receipts

Club lost out on €1.4m in net gate receipts from recent Pro14 match with Munster

" Leinster Rugby faces losing up to half its annual €18 million annual income this season if supporters are not allowed to attend its matches, according to Mick Dawson, the province’s chief executive.

In an interview with Inside Business, an Irish Times podcast, Mr Dawson said: “Fifty per cent of our income roughly is devised from gate receipts. We were meant to play Munster [at the Aviva] in last season’s Pro14 match and we had to give all the money back there. That would generally be a net gate receipt of €1.4 million for us.

“So you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out it’s a lot of money we’ve lost. Looking forward, we’re not sure when we’re gong to get people back through the turnstiles.”

To bridge the gap in its income, Mr Dawson said Leinster had availed of Government wage subsidies and other supports, tapped its own reserves, and implemented pay cuts and deferrals. It also trimmed its cost base where possible.

“At the moment our income streams are slashed, cut in half. We normally have about 12,500 season tickets so we decided not to do that [this season] for the simple reason that we don’t know when people will get through the turnstiles again. So we formed a Leinster club and about 6,000 people signed up for that. Those people are buying the right to get first crack at any tickets that do become available. But there’s no light at the end of the tunnel at the moment.”

On a more positive note, Mr Dawson said private equity group CVC, which has acquired a 20 per cent stake in the Pro14 league, did not use the pandemic as leverage to renegotiate its price of its investment in the competition.

“They stuck with it and all credit to them because I’m sure they could have played a bit of hardball [on the price] in the middle of the pandemic. There are still people who are interested in the sport and will stick with it.”

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Relegation would be a non-starter for a B&I format. Imagine a province got relegated and thus didn't get to play interpros the following season.

The English teams wouldn't be long getting annoyed at continually losing to Leinster and Munster if that came to pass. Look at what Munster did away to Gloucester a while back. The quality in the Prem isn't great outside Saracens and Exeter. Would they start advocating for a salary cap? How would you even measure it? The union vs club model is two in some ways incompatible systems.

Finally, what would it do to the European Cup?

Wouldn't bother me if we missed an Interpro - getting bored endlessly beating Munster at this stage.............would rather a trip to Sandy Park !!

Well you may like it but I think the average Leinster supporter would much rather a game in the Durban summer sunshine against the Sharks. Particularly in the depths of Irish winter.

South Africa being involved brings considerable TV money and improves the standard of the League. More so than playing Exeter or Sale or Newcastle.

We get to play the English sides in Europe so why are you creaming yourself over playing them on a more regular basis? Bragging rights? Give me a break. It’s the depths of monotony and exhibits signs of Stockholm syndrome like the Welsh show to the Brits to think we need a British and Irish league.

In short why would we want to make ourselves the captives of a far larger and more established partner? Why not expand externally instead of joining them and being defeatist about it. Far more upside in expanding the pro 14

agree. timezones makes it more attractive for sponsorship & broadcast rights. feel a little sorry for the argentinians who have been left out and the cheetahs who have been dumped.

I think this could be a great move for the pro16 and SA rugby. Italian teams are competing more now and the welsh teams will hopefully start getting back to they were a few years ago making it a compelling, competitive league.

[Blueberry]

Relegation would be a non-starter for a B&I format. Imagine a province got relegated and thus didn't get to play interpros the following season.

The English teams wouldn't be long getting annoyed at continually losing to Leinster and Munster if that came to pass. Look at what Munster did away to Gloucester a while back. The quality in the Prem isn't great outside Saracens and Exeter. Would they start advocating for a salary cap? How would you even measure it? The union vs club model is two in some ways incompatible systems.

Finally, what would it do to the European Cup?

Wouldn't bother me if we missed an Interpro - getting bored endlessly beating Munster at this stage.............would rather a trip to Sandy Park !!

Well you may like it but I think the average Leinster supporter would much rather a game in the Durban summer sunshine against the Sharks. Particularly in the depths of Irish winter.

South Africa being involved brings considerable TV money and improves the standard of the League. More so than playing Exeter or Sale or Newcastle.

We get to play the English sides in Europe so why are you creaming yourself over playing them on a more regular basis? Bragging rights? Give me a break. It’s the depths of monotony and exhibits signs of Stockholm syndrome like the Welsh show to the Brits to think we need a British and Irish league.

In short why would we want to make ourselves the captives of a far larger and more established partner? Why not expand externally instead of joining them and being defeatist about it. Far more upside in expanding the pro 14

Jesus who rattled your cage.................if you think I'm motivated by having 'bragging rights' over the English you're on the wrong page. Maybe just questioning why we can't consolidate the best of Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English rugby into a mutually agreed competitive league rather than flying half way round the world to play club rugby. Also suggest you look up what Stockholm Syndrome means ? When I last checked Ireland was an independent country and not a captive of the 'English'. I'm certainly not planning on developing a psychological bond with Exeter or Saracens.

Why would forming a B&I league be defeatist ?? As I said it would only be something that would work if it worked for all parties. If the English just wanted it as an English league with the Paddies and the Welshies allowed in for a bit of craic it's hardly going to work is it and no one is going to agree to it.

Might I suggest a touch of an inferiority complex in your post......

Personally I love the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh rivalry and have doubts about the long term sustainability in the world in which we now live of flying half way around the world to play club rugby that's it !!

No issue of course with the league bring expanded and improving quality - but think there may be other ways to do it.

Perhaps the 'average' Leinster fan might also have an issue with coughing up a huge amount of cash to get to Durban.......nice and all as it is.....

Anyway have a good evening.......

[hugonaut]

Interesting post !!

Would be interested in people's views on 'in an ideal world' what type of league would be the best ????

For me it's pretty simple a league with the best Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English teams knocking seven shades of sh1t out of each other in a two division format with Promo and Relegation etc - I adore the rivalry in these islands - just look at the 5/6 nations for the never ending brilliance......of everyone trying to kick seven shades of sh1t out of England.......

Not knocking the news of improving the league by bringing these SA teams in but I just don't see it being a long term solution due to the travel.

There seems to be this absolute 'given rule' that the English would try and take over, steal our players and feck it all up. Maybe so but where is this coming from ? Bar the usual well them and the French don't value the Pro 14 etc etc etc.........

Also why would Irish players be 'destroyed' by the English teams - Irish players stay in Ireland and play for Irish provinces as they want to play for the national side and are well looked after - every single major Irish player could be making more in France right now but stay for these reasons.

Any English rugby fans I talk to are well aware that the Premiership is limited and could do with a new format, they too have had a predictable league in recent years with teams just making up the numbers and they look across the water in envy at what Leinster have done........(despite the English gutter media rubbish trying to make excuses by saying that Leinster can rest players etc etc and the PRO 14 is cr@p etc etc)

We do seem to have this view that 'The English' would just be out to get us and feck us over...........perhaps it's time to be a touch more confident....and a little less 1916. Any B&I league is only going to work if it was negotiated to suit all, if the English want it there own way it's never going to happen anyway.

Look it's all idle speculation as it ain't happening but I'm just looking at this from the angle of what would be the ideal !!

I think our wariness of PRL/English club owners is well-founded.

- The first piece of evidence to hand is the repeated cheating of the salary cap by Nigel Wray at Saracens [https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... al-by-deal ];
- the second is whitewash of previous salary cap infringements in 2015 [source: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/ ... fferty-rfu ];
- the third is the dismantling of the union-based ERC and the complete failure of the English and French malcontents to deliver on their promises [source: https://www.onside.ie/intelligence-blog ... rship-deal ] - a deal which led, not incidentally, to consumers having to purchase two different sports packages to watch one competition;
- the fourth is the shock resignation of Ian Ritchie as RFU head in the same year he negotiated a deal to hand over £25m of RFU money per year for eight years to the PRL ... and his surprising appointment as CEO of the PRL less than a year later [source: https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43499664 ]
- the fifth is proposed PRL plans to stage an unregulated competition if the RFU didn't agree with their proposal to ringfence the Premiership [link: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 14131.html ]

This is only going back five years. There may be some latent wariness of doing deals with English Tories because of, basically, our entire history – and ongoing political observation – but it is also just a general case of choosing who you go into business with. If it was a case of going into business with Belgian or Spanish people who behaved like this, you would also be extremely wary.

[Wanderers FC]

Wouldn't bother me if we missed an Interpro - getting bored endlessly beating Munster at this stage.............would rather a trip to Sandy Park !!

Well you may like it but I think the average Leinster supporter would much rather a game in the Durban summer sunshine against the Sharks. Particularly in the depths of Irish winter.

South Africa being involved brings considerable TV money and improves the standard of the League. More so than playing Exeter or Sale or Newcastle.

We get to play the English sides in Europe so why are you creaming yourself over playing them on a more regular basis? Bragging rights? Give me a break. It’s the depths of monotony and exhibits signs of Stockholm syndrome like the Welsh show to the Brits to think we need a British and Irish league.

In short why would we want to make ourselves the captives of a far larger and more established partner? Why not expand externally instead of joining them and being defeatist about it. Far more upside in expanding the pro 14

Jesus who rattled your cage.................if you think I'm motivated by having 'bragging rights' over the English you're on the wrong page. Maybe just questioning why we can't consolidate the best of Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English rugby into a mutually agreed competitive league rather than flying half way round the world to play club rugby. Also suggest you look up what Stockholm Syndrome means ? When I last checked Ireland was an independent country and not a captive of the 'English'. I'm certainly not planning on developing a psychological bond with Exeter or Saracens.

Why would forming a B&I league be defeatist ?? As I said it would only be something that would work if it worked for all parties. If the English just wanted it as an English league with the Paddies and the Welshies allowed in for a bit of craic it's hardly going to work is it and no one is going to agree to it.

Might I suggest a touch of an inferiority complex in your post......

Personally I love the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh rivalry and have doubts about the long term sustainability in the world in which we now live of flying half way around the world to play club rugby that's it !!

No issue of course with the league bring expanded and improving quality - but think there may be other ways to do it.

Perhaps the 'average' Leinster fan might also have an issue with coughing up a huge amount of cash to get to Durban.......nice and all as it is.....

Anyway have a good evening.......

You’re harking back to the 1800’s where we were under the tutelage of the English. Joining a league with them being pay masters would be suicide for the Irish provinces. You are harking back to bygone era that was left behind for good reason.

Why would we want to rejoin the English commercially, culturally and sportingly? It smacks of defeatism and lacks self esteem in our own ability to compete with them as a separate entity.

I think you’re trolling and looking to arouse a response to which you then call the questioner a rabid nationalist or far right extremist. Good attempt!

[Blueberry]

Interesting post !!

Would be interested in people's views on 'in an ideal world' what type of league would be the best ????

For me it's pretty simple a league with the best Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English teams knocking seven shades of sh1t out of each other in a two division format with Promo and Relegation etc - I adore the rivalry in these islands - just look at the 5/6 nations for the never ending brilliance......of everyone trying to kick seven shades of sh1t out of England.......

Not knocking the news of improving the league by bringing these SA teams in but I just don't see it being a long term solution due to the travel.

There seems to be this absolute 'given rule' that the English would try and take over, steal our players and feck it all up. Maybe so but where is this coming from ? Bar the usual well them and the French don't value the Pro 14 etc etc etc.........

Also why would Irish players be 'destroyed' by the English teams - Irish players stay in Ireland and play for Irish provinces as they want to play for the national side and are well looked after - every single major Irish player could be making more in France right now but stay for these reasons.

Any English rugby fans I talk to are well aware that the Premiership is limited and could do with a new format, they too have had a predictable league in recent years with teams just making up the numbers and they look across the water in envy at what Leinster have done........(despite the English gutter media rubbish trying to make excuses by saying that Leinster can rest players etc etc and the PRO 14 is cr@p etc etc)

We do seem to have this view that 'The English' would just be out to get us and feck us over...........perhaps it's time to be a touch more confident....and a little less 1916. Any B&I league is only going to work if it was negotiated to suit all, if the English want it there own way it's never going to happen anyway.

Look it's all idle speculation as it ain't happening but I'm just looking at this from the angle of what would be the ideal !!

I think our wariness of PRL/English club owners is well-founded.

- The first piece of evidence to hand is the repeated cheating of the salary cap by Nigel Wray at Saracens [https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... al-by-deal ];
- the second is whitewash of previous salary cap infringements in 2015 [source: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/ ... fferty-rfu ];
- the third is the dismantling of the union-based ERC and the complete failure of the English and French malcontents to deliver on their promises [source: https://www.onside.ie/intelligence-blog ... rship-deal ] - a deal which led, not incidentally, to consumers having to purchase two different sports packages to watch one competition;
- the fourth is the shock resignation of Ian Ritchie as RFU head in the same year he negotiated a deal to hand over £25m of RFU money per year for eight years to the PRL ... and his surprising appointment as CEO of the PRL less than a year later [source: https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43499664 ]
- the fifth is proposed PRL plans to stage an unregulated competition if the RFU didn't agree with their proposal to ringfence the Premiership [link: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 14131.html ]

This is only going back five years. There may be some latent wariness of doing deals with English Tories because of, basically, our entire history – and ongoing political observation – but it is also just a general case of choosing who you go into business with. If it was a case of going into business with Belgian or Spanish people who behaved like this, you would also be extremely wary.

Totally agree with you....yes history would indicate we would have to be a touch wary.....but if it was a bag of cats leave em to it....