Leinster A '20-21'

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carlow man
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by carlow man »

It seems like we are too eager to play this all out attack game at all age grades lately. Absolutely no structure to anything we did today. Foley was abysmal at 9. Think he threw 4 interceptions in the first half. McCarthy at 13 looked decent but the rest were poor. The pack were completely outmuscled.

I actually thought Dunne showed up well and carried a lot of ball for no rewards. I'd love to know how people rate soroka who was blowing out of his arse after 15 mins and offered nothing as our primary ball carrier. Sheehan needs to sort out his throwing so him and ronan will be busy after training finishes for a while. The hype around these lads is getting silly. None of them seem capable of the nuts and bolts stuff that is required.

There was no dog on that team out there and it mirrored the seniors performance v connacht a couple of weeks ago. I know it's only an A game but our supposed stars of tomorrow aren't quite as good as some think they are.

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hugonaut
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by hugonaut »

backrower8 wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 5:45 pm

Bill Johnston the main difference for me and by a distance. A mature performance.

Jack Boyle, U19, held his own against Tom O'Toole. I didn't expect that,
Agree on both points. Johnston gave Hawkshaw a bit of a lesson in outhalf play.

I was impressed with Boyle's scrummaging as well. O'Toole is a very good tighthead and particularly strong, but Boyle's technique looked pretty ideal and he was able to hold his own.

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hugonaut
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by hugonaut »

wixfjord wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 5:30 pm
It really was men against boys in the backline. We had skinny guys who looked fresh out of 6th year (because some of them are) coming in, Ulster had a few proper units.
I was thinking the same thing.

With that said, some of our best perfomers in the backs this season have been Hugo Keenan and Jimmy O'Brien, who were both late developers and came into the squad with little hype [when you compare them to Larmour or Ringrose, for example]. So lads like O'Reilly, Comerford, Smith and Cosgrave have time on their side.

Osborne was certainly our most threatening back and it's reassuring to know that there are guys like Martin and Kiely in the background as well. You need options with the good size/athleticism combo in the three-quarter line, you can't just send out a backline of munchkins. This isn't the amateur era.

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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by Gearzbox2 »

I’d go along with a lot that’s been said on here re: some younger players getting blown up to all sorts of heights when they are way off the pace of playing pro rugby at any decent level (I’d include Sheehan, Dunne and a couple of other seniors in there)

I thought SOB was particularly bad, not just the missed tackles but he was shooting up constantly creating holes around his team mates trying to make the big hit, selfish play and cost us a couple of time
Didn’t realise Soroka was playing if I’m honest

Really impressed with Greg O’Shea, good cameo against Connacht and scrummef well today...could be a find I reckon

Line out was poor, lifting, calling and throwing
Actually thought Hawkshaw did ok, the pack was just dominated

Ulster’s offloading and footwork especially from their pack was so impressive, like watching the Tolouse espoirs!!!!
Few good players coming through for them

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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by Keith »

carlow man wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 6:03 pm
It seems like we are too eager to play this all out attack game at all age grades lately. Absolutely no structure to anything we did today. Foley was abysmal at 9. Think he threw 4 interceptions in the first half. McCarthy at 13 looked decent but the rest were poor. The pack were completely outmuscled.

I actually thought Dunne showed up well and carried a lot of ball for no rewards. I'd love to know how people rate soroka who was blowing out of his arse after 15 mins and offered nothing as our primary ball carrier. Sheehan needs to sort out his throwing so him and ronan will be busy after training finishes for a while. The hype around these lads is getting silly. None of them seem capable of the nuts and bolts stuff that is required.

There was no dog on that team out there and it mirrored the seniors performance v connacht a couple of weeks ago. I know it's only an A game but our supposed stars of tomorrow aren't quite as good as some think they are.
Very highly, which is merited given his performances for Ireland u20s and previous A games. If we are going to rate players solely off this game then we may toss that entire backline out of the squad now (Osborne aside).

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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

in case others, like me, who missed the live stream and would like to watch the game....they have archived it here:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/55649976 doesn't seem to have any country block on it..so should work in ROI

alanair
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by alanair »

riocard911 wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 4:50 pm
Excellent performance by Bill Johnston.

p.s. Can I take it, that any further discussion about the shortcomings of the Ulster Academy is now moot?.....
Exactly , so lets not give them any more players ... actually some if their Academy lads should be sent to CON/MUN 🙁

carlow man
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by carlow man »

Keith wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 7:08 pm
carlow man wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 6:03 pm
It seems like we are too eager to play this all out attack game at all age grades lately. Absolutely no structure to anything we did today. Foley was abysmal at 9. Think he threw 4 interceptions in the first half. McCarthy at 13 looked decent but the rest were poor. The pack were completely outmuscled.

I actually thought Dunne showed up well and carried a lot of ball for no rewards. I'd love to know how people rate soroka who was blowing out of his arse after 15 mins and offered nothing as our primary ball carrier. Sheehan needs to sort out his throwing so him and ronan will be busy after training finishes for a while. The hype around these lads is getting silly. None of them seem capable of the nuts and bolts stuff that is required.

There was no dog on that team out there and it mirrored the seniors performance v connacht a couple of weeks ago. I know it's only an A game but our supposed stars of tomorrow aren't quite as good as some think they are.
Very highly, which is merited given his performances for Ireland u20s and previous A games. If we are going to rate players solely off this game then we may toss that entire backline out of the squad now (Osborne aside).
The backline weren't that bad. All the ball the backs received was on the back foot. The forwards gave no platform to the half backs. The back row were outplayed and looked off the pace. It seems that we are all happy to praise these lads when they are doing well but when they play cr@p people jump to their defence as if they are beyond criticism. You can't have it all one way.

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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by leinsterforever »

Keith wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 7:08 pm
carlow man wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 6:03 pm
It seems like we are too eager to play this all out attack game at all age grades lately. Absolutely no structure to anything we did today. Foley was abysmal at 9. Think he threw 4 interceptions in the first half. McCarthy at 13 looked decent but the rest were poor. The pack were completely outmuscled.

I actually thought Dunne showed up well and carried a lot of ball for no rewards. I'd love to know how people rate soroka who was blowing out of his arse after 15 mins and offered nothing as our primary ball carrier. Sheehan needs to sort out his throwing so him and ronan will be busy after training finishes for a while. The hype around these lads is getting silly. None of them seem capable of the nuts and bolts stuff that is required.

There was no dog on that team out there and it mirrored the seniors performance v connacht a couple of weeks ago. I know it's only an A game but our supposed stars of tomorrow aren't quite as good as some think they are.
Very highly, which is merited given his performances for Ireland u20s and previous A games. If we are going to rate players solely off this game then we may toss that entire backline out of the squad now (Osborne aside).
I didn't watch the match, but maybe Soroka is trying to bulk up at the moment and hasn't been doing as much aerobic work.

Ruckedtobits
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by Ruckedtobits »

carlow man wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 6:03 pm
It seems like we are too eager to play this all out attack game at all age grades lately. Absolutely no structure to anything we did today...........

There was no dog on that team out there and it mirrored the seniors performance v connacht a couple of weeks ago. I know it's only an A game but our supposed stars of tomorrow aren't quite as good as some think they are.
+1
Thought there was little teamwork or defensive discipline with poor tackling throughout Leinster ranks. Moving slow ball wide on back foot has rarely been successful in rugby and it wasn't today. Hawkshaw restarts very poor. Our higher profile backrow lost a few layers of paint off their individual reputations.

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johng
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by johng »

mildlyinterested wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 5:36 pm
Age of ulsters 11 to 15

11. 19
12. 18
13. 20
14. 19
15. 20

Leinster's

11. 20
12. 21
13. 19
14. 26
15. 20
We are the same age on the odd numbers but 10 years older on the even. :lol:

mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by mildlyinterested »

The athletic gap between leinsters team and ulsters was worrying.. they seemed to have better athletes in almost every position. Topped off by having better skills. You'd wonder what's going on.. this isn't a once off as the A team has struggled this year.

But let's not overreact, it will be something to follow though. Not sure if there are any more A games planned.. you'd assume they would want to play more as its the only game time most of these players are able to get with the restrictions likely to continue for quite some time.

mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by mildlyinterested »

johng wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 12:43 am
mildlyinterested wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 5:36 pm
Age of ulsters 11 to 15

11. 19
12. 18
13. 20
14. 19
15. 20

Leinster's

11. 20
12. 21
13. 19
14. 26
15. 20
We are the same age on the odd numbers but 10 years older on the even. :lol:
going by listed stats:

Ulster
11. 6'1, 87kg
12. 6'0, 98kg
13. 6'3, 97kg
14. 6'3, 97kg
15. 6'2, 94kg

Yikes... as hugo said it's good to see that Kiely, Osborne, Martin are coming through as we don't have high upside athletes like Ulster currently in our academy.

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LeinsterLeader
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by LeinsterLeader »

mildlyinterested wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 11:45 am
The athletic gap between leinsters team and ulsters was worrying.. they seemed to have better athletes in almost every position. Topped off by having better skills. You'd wonder what's going on.. this isn't a once off as the A team has struggled this year.

But let's not overreact, it will be something to follow though. Not sure if there are any more A games planned.. you'd assume they would want to play more as its the only game time most of these players are able to get with the restrictions likely to continue for quite some time.
Something to keep in mind MI.......

I remember sitting in the stands at the final of the Celtic Cup thingy last year year against Ulster and remarked to my Son about how big the ulster back line was compared to our guys. They all looked physically stronger then our guys, mostly taller and certainly wider. They were a fearsome sight if I'm honest.

By half way through the second half it didn't matter. We had beaten them up pretty badly (a lot like they did to us yesterday) and we had moved the ball so well that their physically and athleticism didn't matter. We were just smarter all over the pitch. We weren't yesterday. We had also played a similar Ulster lineup a few weeks earlier and destroyed them. A number of guys who played for us yesterday played in those wins (Turner, Dunne, Sheehan, others?). I'm pretty sure some of their guys were there too. Things change quickly in sport.

So personally, I wouldn't be worried to much about the athleticism. The decline of our ball skills is more worrying for me but as you say that could be down to lack of practice and is an easier fix once we get back to normality.

That's my thoughts anyway. Maybe I'm fooling myself (wouldn't be the first time) and we are just being over taken by talent in other academies and our supply of brilliant talent is drying up. If that is the case, as supporters we're just going to have to accept it (not like it but accept it). But I think the academy has done enough over the last few years to generate our trust for a while so they can show that they know what they're doing. For a while anyway!

erskinechilders
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by erskinechilders »

I think we have to look at that ulster back line as being pretty special. Ulster have some excellent prospects coming through in the backs these days. Couple the likes of Sexton, Hyde etc. with in form ball carriers like McCann and Izuchukwu then any A team would be in trouble. Most of the Ulster back line look capable of lighting up Pro 14 games, in contrast to this, I would argue that Osborne looks the only top level talent in that Leinster back line.

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ronk
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by ronk »

Ulster are (have have usually been) good at not typecasting their back line talent. We have loads of 6 0-2 ft steppers at 14 odd stone.

Ulster have Baloucoune, Lowry and Sexton. Also produced Farrell and McCloskey.

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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by mildlyinterested »

erskinechilders wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 2:07 pm
I think we have to look at that ulster back line as being pretty special. Ulster have some excellent prospects coming through in the backs these days. Couple the likes of Sexton, Hyde etc. with in form ball carriers like McCann and Izuchukwu then any A team would be in trouble. Most of the Ulster back line look capable of lighting up Pro 14 games, in contrast to this, I would argue that Osborne looks the only top level talent in that Leinster back line.
Yeah i'd agree to an extent. The outside backs in the academy don't like to have the talent of Ulster's backs outside maybe Andrew Smith.

Izuchukwu looked a lot better than I expected, think we may be wondering in a year or two why we didn't invest some more in him.
Last edited by mildlyinterested on January 16th, 2021, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by mildlyinterested »

LeinsterLeader wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 2:02 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 11:45 am
The athletic gap between leinsters team and ulsters was worrying.. they seemed to have better athletes in almost every position. Topped off by having better skills. You'd wonder what's going on.. this isn't a once off as the A team has struggled this year.

But let's not overreact, it will be something to follow though. Not sure if there are any more A games planned.. you'd assume they would want to play more as its the only game time most of these players are able to get with the restrictions likely to continue for quite some time.
Something to keep in mind MI.......

I remember sitting in the stands at the final of the Celtic Cup thingy last year year against Ulster and remarked to my Son about how big the ulster back line was compared to our guys. They all looked physically stronger then our guys, mostly taller and certainly wider. They were a fearsome sight if I'm honest.

By half way through the second half it didn't matter. We had beaten them up pretty badly (a lot like they did to us yesterday) and we had moved the ball so well that their physically and athleticism didn't matter. We were just smarter all over the pitch. We weren't yesterday. We had also played a similar Ulster lineup a few weeks earlier and destroyed them. A number of guys who played for us yesterday played in those wins (Turner, Dunne, Sheehan, others?). I'm pretty sure some of their guys were there too. Things change quickly in sport.

So personally, I wouldn't be worried to much about the athleticism. The decline of our ball skills is more worrying for me but as you say that could be down to lack of practice and is an easier fix once we get back to normality.

That's my thoughts anyway. Maybe I'm fooling myself (wouldn't be the first time) and we are just being over taken by talent in other academies and our supply of brilliant talent is drying up. If that is the case, as supporters we're just going to have to accept it (not like it but accept it). But I think the academy has done enough over the last few years to generate our trust for a while so they can show that they know what they're doing. For a while anyway!
They looked better coached than us yesterday, with better skills and athleticism.. similar to the other A game I watched recently against Munster.

Certainly not something to overreact to given academy track record but something to keep an eye on.

Things to be concerned about is the inability of leinster to identify and develop a scrumhalf who can pass consistently and the provinces current meltdown at the lineout, which is linked to the inability to find a hooker who can throw but not only that.

Some things to be pleased about: Osborne looked good in a malfunctioning backline, Jack Boyle who is 18 did well in the scrum against Tom O'Toole who has over 50 ulster caps.

Finally as you said it's not the first time ulster have had better athletes playing in their backs than us, the biggest worry is that they seem to now be coaching their athletes better than us.

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dropkick
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by dropkick »

mildlyinterested wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 1:01 pm
johng wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 12:43 am
mildlyinterested wrote:
January 15th, 2021, 5:36 pm
Age of ulsters 11 to 15

11. 19
12. 18
13. 20
14. 19
15. 20

Leinster's

11. 20
12. 21
13. 19
14. 26
15. 20
We are the same age on the odd numbers but 10 years older on the even. :lol:
going by listed stats:

Ulster
11. 6'1, 87kg
12. 6'0, 98kg
13. 6'3, 97kg
14. 6'3, 97kg
15. 6'2, 94kg


Yikes... as hugo said it's good to see that Kiely, Osborne, Martin are coming through as we don't have high upside athletes like Ulster currently in our academy.

Perfect size for modern GAA. I suspect that's where a lot of potential Leinster talent is. All the talent in Dublin football alone..

mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster A '20-21'

Post by mildlyinterested »

dropkick wrote:
January 18th, 2021, 9:04 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 1:01 pm
johng wrote:
January 16th, 2021, 12:43 am

We are the same age on the odd numbers but 10 years older on the even. :lol:
going by listed stats:

Ulster
11. 6'1, 87kg
12. 6'0, 98kg
13. 6'3, 97kg
14. 6'3, 97kg
15. 6'2, 94kg


Yikes... as hugo said it's good to see that Kiely, Osborne, Martin are coming through as we don't have high upside athletes like Ulster currently in our academy.

Perfect size for modern GAA. I suspect that's where a lot of potential Leinster talent is. All the talent in Dublin football alone..
doesn't really explain it to me, Ulster have that issue too, perhaps even worse given the obvious divide up north.

over reliance on two schools an issue, therefore narrowing potential athletic talent pool.

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