Pro 14 Semi-final vs Munster, Friday Sept 4th, 7.35pm

[Oldschool]

Delighted for Stephen Archer after another faux hard man dirty shot on Sexton tonight.

He never made any impact and Healy had him on toast a few times in the scrum.

An average TH version of Marcus Horan, which isn’t saying much.

Horan was a LH otherwise +1.

[Oldschool]

God they're spitting fire on shelbyville.com !!! - Strangely they think Toland is a Leinster fan ???
Most calling for Van Gran departure ....

In fairness I can understand them baying for his head. This is not the first time in a semi they looked in with a shout and their strategy was very one dimensional that wasn’t changed at halftime when all could see Munster wouldn’t win it if they continued the same play in the 2nd

He's a South African.
Bosch is his middle lane.
The days when Munster could out bosch Leinster are long gone.
If he doesn't know that by now then...............

[Oldschool]

I'll tell you who I feel really sorry for. Australians. Remember how Larkham said (totally not trying to blow smoke up the local's asses) that the talent in Munster was superior to the talent in Australia? I even feel sorry for Nucifo... ah, no thats too far.

I didn't see any Larkham in that performance. Munster actually played some well-drilled and pacy attacking rugby in the game two weeks ago, and you could see Larkham's influence there.

This gameplan had the hallmarks of van Graan setting out a strict strategy and essentially sidelining his attack coach. Why do I think that?

1] Van Graan is an extremely conservative selector, so it's probable that that conservative outlook bleeds across from selection to a tactical approach;

2] I thought that their gameplan was modelled on South Africa's 2019 RWC SF against Wales. We have seen in the past that VG is essentially a mini-me of Rassie: Rassie does something, than VG does it a month later, viz.
a] a significant over-reliance on box-kicking from the scrum-half [19 from Faf de Klerk in RWC SF vs 14 from Murray in PRO14 SF];
b] the restrictive tactical approach [SA had just 68 passes over the course of the game from 44% possession; Wales completed 101 passes / Munster completed 68 passes from 41% possession against us [106 passes];
c] the sixth forward on the bench [Gavin Coombes for Mike Haley, clearly a tactical swap as there was any number of back three players Munster could have swapped in for Haley - Gallagher, Nash, Sweetnam for example];

3] Van Graan is not actually that innovative or insightful as a coach. They had success with bombs two weeks ago, so he went to that again. There's nothing wrong with going back to something that works, but he had absolutely no ability to change up how they played when this wasn't working. They didn't have an effective way to change pace through the pick-and-gos or cross kicks, and they were unable to move from one portion of the pitch to another with ball in hand. Even they wanted to be on a different part of the pitch [in N-S terms], they had to kick it. And they just kept doing the same thing that wasn't working for 80 mins. To my eyes, a very obvious coaching failure.

I’ve had similar opinions on JVG for the last 12 months or so and I think last night will be the beginning of the end for him.

I can’t get over how one dimensional they were. Can you imagine how frustrating that video review is going to be for the players?

Murray Kinsella said that Earls only carried once and Conway carried three times and made 3m between them. The conditions weren’t bad enough for that to be excusable, in fact I’d say that that could be a sackable offence and I’m really not exaggerating.

Thought it was very interesting when CJ said something about it being difficult to come back after we scored our try...really? A four point deficit means its curtains?

I stood up for them for kicking the ball out at the end of the game two weeks ago because it seemed smart. There might have been valid reasons for it, but they also didn’t have anything in their locker.

P.s. I’m with you on Keenan. IIRC as that under 20s season went on he developed a nice break where he’d glide past someone on the outside and jink his way upfield, and whilst that was impressive he didn’t look like the kind of athlete who could do that at pro level and didn’t seem to have a whole lot else to get excited about.

At the risk of repeating myself.
a. JVG is South African ergo.
b. Munster will never, ever, ever achieve anything until they hire a coach like Joe or Lancaster, ie a coach who wants his team to play rugby.
c. The best coach they ever had was a NZer and they dumped him because he was trying to get his team to play rugby.
d. They don't have the patience for a coach like c. to succeed.

[Dave Cahill]

Was that a good game?
No

Did we play well?
No

Did we need to play well?
As it turns out, no.

Were there any positives then?
Actually, quite a few. Leinster took most of their failings against Munster two weeks ago and addressed them. We were excellent when the ball was in the air, our lineout functioned properly, we didn't let them get outside us. Less experienced players in Doris, Keenan and Connors were some of the best on the pitch and guys who hadn't played particularly well the last day, like Larmour, stepped it up

Does it matter that we didn't play well?
No. And yes. See Below.

"If we play like that we won't beat Sarries".
Absolutely true, indeed if we play like that we won't beat Edinburgh/Ulster (Edinburgh at least, as Ulster's form has fallen off a post-lockdown cliff). However, we wouldn't play that way against Edinburgh or Ulster. And certainly not against Sarries.

It's hard to turn form on and off like a tap.
Yes. And no. Generally thats the case, but Leinster have repeatedly shown in the last few years that you can, maybe not turn it on or of, but manage its flow.

[Wanderers FC]

Even with Dev there? Why do you think that was?

P.s. debates are lot easier without unnecessary laughing emojis.

Ah, so you're a fan of emojis now eh LRIP? That's a change eh?

Doesn't the lineout improvement illuustrate the point that clearly having Dev to throw to makes it far easier for a hooker? You said 'Kelleher wouldn't benefit from haviing Dev there'. I think he clearly did tonight.

Emm I didn’t use a laughing emoji? I was making sure you knew it was tongue in cheek and not just...cheek.

No I said he wouldn’t particularly benefit from having Dev there because he’s a poor thrower and will always make mistakes. And the reason I used that emoji was actually because I didn’t think there was much evidence of my point tonight. The one that went over Conan seemed like a mistimed jump to me.

“He’s a poor thrower” - what are you basing that off one game two weeks ago where the whole lineout was a shambles? I welcome more examples of where he’s a poor thrower and one missed throw on his debut for Ireland isn’t enough to illustrate your case. Using one game against Munster two weeks ago where there were multiple system errors isn’t enough to back up your opinion with any legitimacy. He had a full season of pressure games where the lineout was stable. A bit of balance please and take off your tinted glasses.

[blockhead]

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/devin-toner-2-446965

Big Dev showing a bit of class last night.

[wixfjord]

Delighted for Stephen Archer after another faux hard man dirty shot on Sexton tonight.

He never made any impact and Healy had him on toast a few times in the scrum.

An average TH version of Marcus Horan, which isn’t saying much.

Horan was a LH otherwise +1.

That's why I said 'TH version'!

[Twist]

The comments on Munsterfans are just so silly. Too many Cork forwards and none from Limerick, the fees aren’t high enough in Munster private schools, time to take Frawley from Leinster.....

All in all, very little respect for Leinster. They seem to think Munster players are inherently better than their Leinster counterparts, and that their club is inherently more attractive to play for.

I was recently reading a book about the antebellum south in the US. One passage focussed on their overconfidence and lack of respect for northerners fighting abilities prior to the war. It affected their strategies and caused them to neglect their logistics plan.

Now this might be the cider talking (I’ve had a few) but one quote from a Texan named Sam Huston read like a warning to Munster circa 2009; “They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates, but when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche.”

[OTT]

The comments on Munsterfans are just so silly. Too many Cork forwards and none from Limerick, the fees aren’t high enough in Munster private schools, time to take Frawley from Leinster.....

All in all, very little respect for Leinster. They seem to think Munster players are inherently better than their Leinster counterparts, and that their club is inherently more attractive to play for.

I was recently reading a book about the antebellum south in the US. One passage focussed on their overconfidence and lack of respect for northerners fighting abilities prior to the war. It affected their strategies and caused them to neglect their logistics plan.

Now this might be the cider talking (I’ve had a few) but one quote from a Texan named Sam Huston read like a warning to Munster circa 2009; “They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates, but when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche.”

What I find strange is. When there are discussions on here about particular Munster players who we (Leinster fans) are indifferent to there is always a sort of anger thrown back and an accusation of a lack of respect by us. If you read their forum now they want rid of Archy (Archer), Scanns (Scannell), Billy who you would always love to go into battle with he is the heart beat of the team (Holland), double Jesus (Hanrahan), Murr (Murray). The same lads they have wanted picked for Ireland for years, the lads they were disgusted when anyone else said anything remotely offensive about. They are like a caricature of themselves.

[paddyor]

To be absolutely fair to Van Graan it was the right gameplan for the conditions and it generated scoring opportunities that JJ didn't convert.

[Up Wexford]

The comments on Munsterfans are just so silly. Too many Cork forwards and none from Limerick, the fees aren’t high enough in Munster private schools, time to take Frawley from Leinster.....

All in all, very little respect for Leinster. They seem to think Munster players are inherently better than their Leinster counterparts, and that their club is inherently more attractive to play for.

I was recently reading a book about the antebellum south in the US. One passage focussed on their overconfidence and lack of respect for northerners fighting abilities prior to the war. It affected their strategies and caused them to neglect their logistics plan.

Now this might be the cider talking (I’ve had a few) but one quote from a Texan named Sam Huston read like a warning to Munster circa 2009; “They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates, but when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche.”

Had a look at that forum today. Its..... a lot

[Up Wexford]

To be absolutely fair to Van Graan it was the right gameplan for the conditions and it generated scoring opportunities that JJ didn't convert.

As stated elsewhere on the forum, he seems to want to mimic the tactics that worked for his giant world cup winning team on a completely different Munster team.

[munster#1]

The comments on Munsterfans are just so silly. Too many Cork forwards and none from Limerick, the fees aren’t high enough in Munster private schools, time to take Frawley from Leinster.....

All in all, very little respect for Leinster. They seem to think Munster players are inherently better than their Leinster counterparts, and that their club is inherently more attractive to play for.

I was recently reading a book about the antebellum south in the US. One passage focussed on their overconfidence and lack of respect for northerners fighting abilities prior to the war. It affected their strategies and caused them to neglect their logistics plan.

Now this might be the cider talking (I’ve had a few) but one quote from a Texan named Sam Huston read like a warning to Munster circa 2009; “They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates, but when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche.”

What I find strange is. When there are discussions on here about particular Munster players who we (Leinster fans) are indifferent to there is always a sort of anger thrown back and an accusation of a lack of respect by us. If you read their forum now they want rid of Archy (Archer), Scanns (Scannell), Billy who you would always love to go into battle with he is the heart beat of the team (Holland), double Jesus (Hanrahan), Murr (Murray). The same lads they have wanted picked for Ireland for years, the lads they were disgusted when anyone else said anything remotely offensive about. They are like a caricature of themselves.

Just like on any forum on the internet, what is written by some muppets on that site is not a true reflection of the opinions of the broader Munster community.

Some posters are likely just letting off steam, after yet another semifinal defeat.

[riocard911]

Most of the Red Army are criticising Munster's failure to give the likes of Hodnett, Casey et al more game time and quite a few are praising the Leinster renaissance under Leo and how he and his team have gone about blooding academy players. Sure they're disappointed, but most of the commentary involves pointing out the failings - too many Saffers, conservative game plan etc. - that others both inside and outside the province of Munster, Paulie included, have raised in recent years. Gloating is unbecoming. Irish rugby needs a Munster team that is competitive domestically and in Europe.

[OTT]

The comments on Munsterfans are just so silly. Too many Cork forwards and none from Limerick, the fees aren’t high enough in Munster private schools, time to take Frawley from Leinster.....

All in all, very little respect for Leinster. They seem to think Munster players are inherently better than their Leinster counterparts, and that their club is inherently more attractive to play for.

I was recently reading a book about the antebellum south in the US. One passage focussed on their overconfidence and lack of respect for northerners fighting abilities prior to the war. It affected their strategies and caused them to neglect their logistics plan.

Now this might be the cider talking (I’ve had a few) but one quote from a Texan named Sam Huston read like a warning to Munster circa 2009; “They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates, but when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche.”

What I find strange is. When there are discussions on here about particular Munster players who we (Leinster fans) are indifferent to there is always a sort of anger thrown back and an accusation of a lack of respect by us. If you read their forum now they want rid of Archy (Archer), Scanns (Scannell), Billy who you would always love to go into battle with he is the heart beat of the team (Holland), double Jesus (Hanrahan), Murr (Murray). The same lads they have wanted picked for Ireland for years, the lads they were disgusted when anyone else said anything remotely offensive about. They are like a caricature of themselves.

Just like on any forum on the internet, what is written by some muppets on that site is not a true reflection of the opinions of the broader Munster community.

Some posters are likely just letting off steam, after yet another semifinal defeat.

Do you not find the abuse (letting off steam) very xenophobic (think that’s your go to word) about Irish players born in Munster?

Or do you just misuse that word when a Leinster fan makes a comment about a Munster player?

[munster#1]

What I find strange is. When there are discussions on here about particular Munster players who we (Leinster fans) are indifferent to there is always a sort of anger thrown back and an accusation of a lack of respect by us. If you read their forum now they want rid of Archy (Archer), Scanns (Scannell), Billy who you would always love to go into battle with he is the heart beat of the team (Holland), double Jesus (Hanrahan), Murr (Murray). The same lads they have wanted picked for Ireland for years, the lads they were disgusted when anyone else said anything remotely offensive about. They are like a caricature of themselves.

Just like on any forum on the internet, what is written by some muppets on that site is not a true reflection of the opinions of the broader Munster community.

Some posters are likely just letting off steam, after yet another semifinal defeat.

Do you not find the abuse (letting off steam) very xenophobic (think that’s your go to word) about Irish players born in Munster?

Or do you just misuse that word when a Leinster fan makes a comment about a Munster player?

I haven’t read all of the comments, so if someone is abusing players based on where they are from, then that is crossing the line.
I incorrectly thought the posts were slating players based on how poorly they played, but if that is not the case, then I stand corrected.

I am not condoning what the posters are posting, just highlighting that the minority of fans who post on an Internet forum do not represent the feelings of the majority.

[carlow man]

Most of the Red Army are criticising Munster's failure to give the likes of Hodnett, Casey et al more game time and quite a few are praising the Leinster renaissance under Leo and how he and his team have gone about blooding academy players. Sure they're disappointed, but most of the commentary involves pointing out the failings - too many Saffers, conservative game plan etc. - that others both inside and outside the province of Munster, Paulie included, have raised in recent years. Gloating is unbecoming. Irish rugby needs a Munster team that is competitive domestically and in Europe.

Paul o'Connell didnt encourage an open game plan. Half of the reason rob penny was run out of Munster was because too many of the old guard including poc didnt share his vision of a more expansive game plan. He was never going to get them to play the full width of the pitch while the old guard were still there telling everyone that the maul and lineout was their best attacking platform. Now look at them, still playing for territory and hoping to capitalize on the others teams mistakes. Nothing has changed for years down there. It's a shame as larkham could have them really playing but the head coach has too much control.

[riocard911]

Most of the Red Army are criticising Munster's failure to give the likes of Hodnett, Casey et al more game time and quite a few are praising the Leinster renaissance under Leo and how he and his team have gone about blooding academy players. Sure they're disappointed, but most of the commentary involves pointing out the failings - too many Saffers, conservative game plan etc. - that others both inside and outside the province of Munster, Paulie included, have raised in recent years. Gloating is unbecoming. Irish rugby needs a Munster team that is competitive domestically and in Europe.

Paul o'Connell didnt encourage an open game plan. Half of the reason rob penny was run out of Munster was because too many of the old guard including poc didnt share his vision of a more expansive game plan. He was never going to get them to play the full width of the pitch while the old guard were still there telling everyone that the maul and lineout was their best attacking platform. Now look at them, still playing for territory and hoping to capitalize on the others teams mistakes. Nothing has changed for years down there. It's a shame as larkham could have them really playing but the head coach has too much control.

I apologize, if my post was not clear enough. Paul O'Connell has been critical of the set-up down there in recent years, bemoaning the failure of the academy and the glacial pace of bringing thru young players. I don't remember him saying anything about the game plan. Others have criticised that. It is well possible, that he contributed to the demise of the Penney reign, but I personally have no evidence for that.

[Twist]

Somewhat grabby comments from ROG before the game;

“Tonight is about Munster at Leinster at the Aviva Stadium. A win for the visitors in the Pro14 semi-final would be the biggest lift to the province in donkey’s years. And not just for the professional team. For everyone south of the Curragh who loves their rugby.

Not every thought is red. I wonder sometimes about Leinster too. Their age profile, that ‘middle tier’ demographic. Loads of experience and plenty of freshman talent. Not so sure in between. There are perceived Leinster strengths which could be weaknesses before they know it.”

[paddyor]

Most of the Red Army are criticising Munster's failure to give the likes of Hodnett, Casey et al more game time and quite a few are praising the Leinster renaissance under Leo and how he and his team have gone about blooding academy players. Sure they're disappointed, but most of the commentary involves pointing out the failings - too many Saffers, conservative game plan etc. - that others both inside and outside the province of Munster, Paulie included, have raised in recent years. Gloating is unbecoming. Irish rugby needs a Munster team that is competitive domestically and in Europe.

Paul o'Connell didnt encourage an open game plan. Half of the reason rob penny was run out of Munster was because too many of the old guard including poc didnt share his vision of a more expansive game plan. He was never going to get them to play the full width of the pitch while the old guard were still there telling everyone that the maul and lineout was their best attacking platform. Now look at them, still playing for territory and hoping to capitalize on the others teams mistakes. Nothing has changed for years down there. It's a shame as larkham could have them really playing but the head coach has too much control.

On the contrary I remember POC saying Munster would need more strings in their bow to compete at the higher level. There were rumours(on cousinfans) he fell out with Foley over the failure to develop it. He's an astute pundit and doesn't come across as someone that narrow minded. DOC seemed to take to the Penney gameplan like a duck to water.