Leinster Academy 2021-22

[mildlyinterested]

Interestingly he mentions that he had to choose between Montpellier, Clermont, and Toulon. I wonder if those clubs will be paying more attention to Irish prospects in the coming years.

Does the IRFU have any type of a structure to support Irish players overseas? I went to France at eighteen but had studied and loved the language at school, I think at that age access to advice and a friendly ear can be important. At least Montpellier is a big University city.

they have IQ rugby ystem but not sure how much help they'd be to players who left the system..

[LeinsterLeader]

Interestingly he mentions that he had to choose between Montpellier, Clermont, and Toulon. I wonder if those clubs will be paying more attention to Irish prospects in the coming years.

Does the IRFU have any type of a structure to support Irish players overseas? I went to France at eighteen but had studied and loved the language at school, I think at that age access to advice and a friendly ear can be important. At least Montpellier is a big University city.

they have IQ rugby ystem but not sure how much help they'd be to players who left the system..

I think other rugby systems (and the Provinces) have discovered that waiting for players to come out of the academy is a fools game as Leinster will have pretty much mopped up all the best players by then. The best way is to go after them while they're in the last year of school or just left school, offer them a contract better then whatever Leinster can offer and Bob's your Uncle!

[mildlyinterested]

Interestingly he mentions that he had to choose between Montpellier, Clermont, and Toulon. I wonder if those clubs will be paying more attention to Irish prospects in the coming years.

Does the IRFU have any type of a structure to support Irish players overseas? I went to France at eighteen but had studied and loved the language at school, I think at that age access to advice and a friendly ear can be important. At least Montpellier is a big University city.

they have IQ rugby ystem but not sure how much help they'd be to players who left the system..

I think other rugby systems (and the Provinces) have discovered that waiting for players to come out of the academy is a fools game as Leinster will have pretty much mopped up all the best players by then. The best way is to go after them while they're in the last year of school or just left school, offer them a contract better then whatever Leinster can offer and Bob's your Uncle!

to this point leinster have relied upon players willingness to turn down contracts elsewhere to train for free in the sub-academy, how long this can keep up I don't know.. it's certainly favours the players who can afford to do it.

[LeinsterLeader]

they have IQ rugby ystem but not sure how much help they'd be to players who left the system..

I think other rugby systems (and the Provinces) have discovered that waiting for players to come out of the academy is a fools game as Leinster will have pretty much mopped up all the best players by then. The best way is to go after them while they're in the last year of school or just left school, offer them a contract better then whatever Leinster can offer and Bob's your Uncle!

to this point leinster have relied upon players willingness to turn down contracts elsewhere to train for free in the sub-academy, how long this can keep up I don't know.. it's certainly favours the players who can afford to do it.

Absolutely and it's been a huge advantage. So as you say if they wish to keep it they'll need to up their game and that's going to cost money. In the current environment can they afford it? Maybe if they decide no big NIQ signing for a few seasons? But short term pain for long term gain like that doesn't always go down well with supporters. I mean would you accept a few years in the doldrums if it meant you could keep you're best and brightest future prospects?

[mildlyinterested]

I think other rugby systems (and the Provinces) have discovered that waiting for players to come out of the academy is a fools game as Leinster will have pretty much mopped up all the best players by then. The best way is to go after them while they're in the last year of school or just left school, offer them a contract better then whatever Leinster can offer and Bob's your Uncle!

to this point leinster have relied upon players willingness to turn down contracts elsewhere to train for free in the sub-academy, how long this can keep up I don't know.. it's certainly favours the players who can afford to do it.

Absolutely and it's been a huge advantage. So as you say if they wish to keep it they'll need to up their game and that's going to cost money. In the current environment can they afford it? Maybe if they decide no big NIQ signing for a few seasons? But short term pain for long term gain like that doesn't always go down well with supporters. I mean would you accept a few years in the doldrums if it meant you could keep you're best and brightest future prospects?

I'm not sure it's a binary choice between retaining a small number of underage players and leinster being "in the doldrums" for a few years.

Also if leinster don't keep their best and brightest prospects how are they going to compete in the future?

[ronk]

Covid disruptions are being felt. Maybe there's some talent that will slip out but mostly the guys doing a 2nd year of sub academy aren't the top top talent. Injury might affect that.

[LeinsterLeader]

No your probably right, it probably isn't a straight choice, but it is a possibility. One things for sure is that to put anything in place to counter act "pouching" (probably not the correct word) of these players it will cost more money and probably a lot more, so that will have to come from somewhere. If it's grants or other funding then we're all good but if not.......... choices will have to be made.

[mildlyinterested]

No your probably right, it probably isn't a straight choice, but it is a possibility. One things for sure is that to put anything in place to counter act "pouching" (probably not the correct word) of these players it will cost more money and probably a lot more, so that will have to come from somewhere. If it's grants or other funding then we're all good but if not.......... choices will have to be made.

Outside of Illo, the players lost recently went to leinster first, it was only when leinster told them to wait that they looked abroad.. seems a rather simple fix, although it will require coaches knowing which players will look elsewhere and who will be happy to wait..

[LeinsterLeader]

No your probably right, it probably isn't a straight choice, but it is a possibility. One things for sure is that to put anything in place to counter act "pouching" (probably not the correct word) of these players it will cost more money and probably a lot more, so that will have to come from somewhere. If it's grants or other funding then we're all good but if not.......... choices will have to be made.

Outside of Illo, the players lost recently went to leinster first, it was only when leinster told them to wait that they looked abroad.. seems a rather simple fix, although it will require coaches knowing which players will look elsewhere and who will be happy to wait..

Simple enough fix yes, but you have to admit it's going to cost money. Leinster are going to have to offer them ay least the same as they will be offered elsewhere and while that's only 3 or 4 guys now, suppose it's 10-12 next year. Do we offer them all contracts? and what if the other clubs come back with better offers (like Connacht), should we match that to? Okay some may want to stay with Leinster and not take the better offer but I wouldn't say many (or at least not without some sort of guarantee). You could end up up a whole lot of talent, costing you a whole lot of money and then possibly not enough serious game them to develop them in.

[joooooe]

No your probably right, it probably isn't a straight choice, but it is a possibility. One things for sure is that to put anything in place to counter act "pouching" (probably not the correct word) of these players it will cost more money and probably a lot more, so that will have to come from somewhere. If it's grants or other funding then we're all good but if not.......... choices will have to be made.

Pouching is what happens to a kangaroo. Poaching is what happens to Leinster prospects (and eggs). Only a Joey can be the subject of both pouching and poaching.

[mildlyinterested]

No your probably right, it probably isn't a straight choice, but it is a possibility. One things for sure is that to put anything in place to counter act "pouching" (probably not the correct word) of these players it will cost more money and probably a lot more, so that will have to come from somewhere. If it's grants or other funding then we're all good but if not.......... choices will have to be made.

Outside of Illo, the players lost recently went to leinster first, it was only when leinster told them to wait that they looked abroad.. seems a rather simple fix, although it will require coaches knowing which players will look elsewhere and who will be happy to wait..

Simple enough fix yes, but you have to admit it's going to cost money. Leinster are going to have to offer them ay least the same as they will be offered elsewhere and while that's only 3 or 4 guys now, suppose it's 10-12 next year. Do we offer them all contracts? and what if the other clubs come back with better offers (like Connacht), should we match that to? Okay some may want to stay with Leinster and not take the better offer but I wouldn't say many (or at least not without some sort of guarantee). You could end up up a whole lot of talent, costing you a whole lot of money and then possibly not enough serious game them to develop them in.

giving players contracts is going to cost money, but a I said to date outside of Illo players first preference was to stay at leinster, Martin and Berti woudln't have contract offers from elsewhere if leinster had moved to retain them earlier.

I'm talking about retaining the top talents which Martin and Berti Newman fall into, not giving contracts to every player who gets an offer from elsewhere.

It's all hypothetical anyway, I dont expect Leinster to change much, they seem content to lose some talent in order to keep the current system in place.

[LeinsterLeader]

As you say it is all Hypothetical but there's now harm kicking it around. I feel your pain in relation to what you're saying but I just don't think the solution is that simple. I mean, if you're suggesting that giving contracts doesn't cost money I assume you mean because you then don't give contracts to other guys who you've already marked as prospect (ie there are only so many contracts to go around)? If that's the case then you're at risk of second guessing yourself in relation to your choices. I suppose by extension of that I'm saying that leinster obviously didn't see these guys as the "top talent" you and many others did and only time will tell who was right.

I also don't think Leinster will do much on this, at least not in the short term. I think thy will watch closely how it progresses. If 3/4/5 years down the line guys start to make it big elsewhere I think they will be looking at changing things.

[heno]

What's the problem we are trying to fix here? If leinster just randomly started bringing in more guys into the system, that doesn't automatically mean they and leinster will get the best outcome. Leinster always aim for about 60 odd players between senior and academy because that's a good number for the system we have. If we don't change the structure, such as a nationalised academy system, or a urc A league, then we will just end up with more and more young players looking for fewer minutes on the pitch. Maybe the best for both is that the guys that don't make the cut go elsewhere where they can get the right amount of time and investment to ensure the best outcome.

Sure, we want to have first dibs on the widest selection possible, but you have to invest to earn the right of first dibs. The stat of investments that didn't produce a return is just as important as missed opportunities that went elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[riocard911]

Here's Birch again elucidating his point:

https://www.the42.ie/the-42-rugby-weekl ... 7-Oct2021/

Personally I think he has a valid argument, namely that Leinster are potentially missing out on hidden gems - he cites the case of SO'B -, whose parents cannot afford to subsidize them thru the sub-academy.

[mildlyinterested]

What's the problem we are trying to fix here? If leinster just randomly started bringing in more guys into the system, that doesn't automatically mean they and leinster will get the best outcome. Leinster always aim for about 60 odd players between senior and academy because that's a good number for the system we have. If we don't change the structure, such as a nationalised academy system, or a urc A league, then we will just end up with more and more young players looking for fewer minutes on the pitch. Maybe the best for both is that the guys that don't make the cut go elsewhere where they can get the right amount of time and investment to ensure the best outcome.

Sure, we want to have first dibs on the widest selection possible, but you have to invest to earn the right of first dibs. The stat of investments that didn't produce a return is just as important as missed opportunities that went elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

the poaching of leinsters top underage talent by other clubs due to the current contracting system at academy level.

[ormond lad]

What's the problem we are trying to fix here? If leinster just randomly started bringing in more guys into the system, that doesn't automatically mean they and leinster will get the best outcome. Leinster always aim for about 60 odd players between senior and academy because that's a good number for the system we have. If we don't change the structure, such as a nationalised academy system, or a urc A league, then we will just end up with more and more young players looking for fewer minutes on the pitch. Maybe the best for both is that the guys that don't make the cut go elsewhere where they can get the right amount of time and investment to ensure the best outcome.

Sure, we want to have first dibs on the widest selection possible, but you have to invest to earn the right of first dibs. The stat of investments that didn't produce a return is just as important as missed opportunities that went elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

the poaching of leinsters top underage talent by other clubs due to the current contracting system at academy level.

It isnt poaching in majority of cases anyway

[mildlyinterested]

Sean O'Brien back playing for UCD this weekend after his loan spell abroad.

[mildlyinterested]

LH Prop
Marcus Hanan(21/Clane RFC/Old Belvedere) - inj
Temi Lasisi(19/Enniscorthy RFC/Lansdowne) - inj
Jack Boyle(18/St. Michaels/UCD) - inj
--
Ben Popplewell(Wexford RFC/Lansdowne)
Oisín Michel(Cill Dara RFC/Lansdowne)
George Hadden(Gorey RFC/Clontarf)

TH Prop
--
Mick McCormack(St. St. Marys/St. Marys)
Thomas Connolly(Galwegians/DUFC)
Rory McGuire (Blackrock College/UCD) - bench for UCD.
JJ Hession (St. Michaels/Lansdowne)

Hooker
John McKee(21/Campbell/Old Belvedere) - starting at 2 for Old Belvo.
Lee Barron(20/St. Michaels/DUFC) - inj
--
Howard Noonan (Greystones RFC-Temple Carrig/Old Wesley)
Barry Gray (Carlow RFC/Clontarf)

Lock
Charlie Ryan(22/Blackrock/UCD) - inj
Joe McCarthy(20/Blackrock/DUFC) - inj
--
Mark Morrissey (Blackrock College/UCD)- inj
Conor O'Tighearnaigh (St Michael’s College/UCD)
Sean Walsh (Seapoint RFC/Lansdowne) - inj
Ruairi Clarke (Cill Dara RFC/Lansdowne)
Paul Deeny (Wexford RFC/Clontarf)

Lock-Blindside
Brian Deeny(21/Wexford RFC/Clontarf) - started at 5 for Clontarf.
Alex Soroka(20/Belvedere/Clontarf) - inj
--
Stephen Woods (St. Michaels/DUFC)
Fionn McWey (Portloaise RFC-Roscrea/Old Belvedere)
Diarmuid Mangan (Newbridge/UCD) - starting at 5 for UCD.

Backrow
Martin Moloney(21/Athy RFC/Clontarf) - started at 8 for Clontarf.
Sean O'Brien(21/Blackrock/UCD) - starting at 6 for UCD.
Mark Hernan(21/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - inj
--
Donough Lawlor (Newbridge/Lansdowne) - inj
Luke Callinan (Castleknock/Lansdowne)
Dylan Ryan (St Michael’s/DUFC)
James Culhane (Blackrock/UCD)

Scrumhalf
Cormac Foley(21/St. Gerards/Lansdowne) - started at 9 for Lansdowne.
Ben Murphy(20/Pres Bray/Old Wesley) - inj
--
Conor Duggan(Castleknock/MU Barnhall)
Oisin Devitt (Clongowes)
Michael Moloney (Blackrock)
Seanan Deveraux(St. Marys/UCD)

Outhalf
--
Charlie Tector(Kilkenny/Lansdowne) - started at 10 for Lansdowne.
Sam Prendergast(Newbridge/Lansdowne)

Centre
Liam Turner(22/Blackrock/DUFC) - started at 13 for DUFC.
Jamie Osborne(19/Naas RFC/Naas)
--
Conor Gibney(Mullingar RFC/DUFC)
Ben Brownlee(Blackrock/UCD)
Daniel Hawkshaw(Belvedere/Clontarf)
David Dooley(Tullamore RFC/MU Barnhall)

Back Three
Rob Russell(22/St. Michaels/DUFC) - started at 14 for DUFC.
Andrew Smith(21/St. Michaels/Clontarf) - inj
Niall Comerford(21/Blackrock/UCD) - irish 7s
Max O'Reilly(21/St. Gerards/DUFC) - inj
Chris Cosgrave(20/St. Michaels/UCD) - irish 7s
--
Fionn Gibbons(Castleknock/UCD)
Dylan O’Grady(Belvedere/UCD)
Aitzol Arenzana-King (Balbriggan RFC-CUS/Clontarf)
Callum O’Reilly(St Michael’s/DUFC)
Scott Milne(Tullamore RFC)
Shane Mallon(Longford RFC-Roscrea/UCD) - inj

[Lock9541]

Dylan O’Grady is with UCD

[hugonaut]

What's the problem we are trying to fix here? If leinster just randomly started bringing in more guys into the system, that doesn't automatically mean they and leinster will get the best outcome. Leinster always aim for about 60 odd players between senior and academy because that's a good number for the system we have. If we don't change the structure, such as a nationalised academy system, or a urc A league, then we will just end up with more and more young players looking for fewer minutes on the pitch. Maybe the best for both is that the guys that don't make the cut go elsewhere where they can get the right amount of time and investment to ensure the best outcome.

Sure, we want to have first dibs on the widest selection possible, but you have to invest to earn the right of first dibs. The stat of investments that didn't produce a return is just as important as missed opportunities that went elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Good question. Really good question.

Is it incorrect talent ID by the Leinster Academy staff, or is it a case of potential academy players [and they were all potential academy players, because they were in the sub-academy] being lured away by better offers?

Sam Illo got an offer from Connacht that Leinster were never going to match. I can't see us giving a full contract to a tighthead that would see him skipping the academy. To be honest, I don't see it happening in the next ten years, or even the next twenty years.

Berti Newman I don't know enough about. I'm not as well informed as Mildly – nowhere near as informed – but this guy was completely under the radar for me. I think that has a lot to do with restrictions due to COVID-19; there just weren't many games going ahead. I like Birch and really rate him as a pundit, but he's the main guy who has been very high on LBN ... and he's an alumnus of the same school, was the one who organised his trial with Lam and [I'm pretty sure] was in school in Newbridge with LBN's dad.

In contrast, I had heard and read about Karl Martin for quite a while, and I think we should have offered him an academy deal, rather than asking hm to do a second year in the sub-academy. He's been a big deal since he was 15 – he was so good, so young. I also like the size [189cm,96kg+] for a centre. And I'm not sold on Liam Turner.

If you take a load of guys in the same position into the academy, you really struggle to find games to progress them in. We did it with centres in the past - we took in Tom Daly, Tom Farrell and Steve Crosbie one year and then Garry, Locko and Harry Brewer the next.

And finally, to return to the present day, we brought in Osborne, who is absolutely blue chip. He's already starting Pro14/URC games as a teenager with very little fanfare. He just belongs. It's a hell of a long time since I've seen such an accomplished teenage back for Leinster. I'd have to go back to Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald days, 15-16 years ago. Ringrose didn't debut until he was 20yrs 9mths, Larmour when he was 20yrs 3 mths ... Osborne was 19yrs and 3mths when he made his Leinster debut: a full year younger than Jordan, a year and a half younger than Garry. In terms of centres, he's the pick of the litter, without a doubt.

EDIT: for clarity regarding Osborne timeline