Wing going forward

[mildlyinterested]

With the news of Barry Daly's retirement, let's look at leinster's options on the wing:

Dave Kearney(31) - 5'11, 90kg. 148 caps, 41 tries. Signed contract in 2019.
James Lowe(28) - 6'2, 100kg. 43 caps, 28 tries. Signed 3 yr contract in 2020.
Adam Byrne(26) - 6'3, 98kg. 57 caps, 20 tries. Signed contract in 2020.
Cian Kelleher(26) - 5'11, 92kg. 14 caps, 5 tries. Signed contract in 2019.
Hugo Keenan(24)
Jimmy O'Brien(24)
Jordan Larmour(23) - 5'10, 87kg. 46 caps, 12 tries. Signed contract in 2020.
Tommy O'Brien(22) - 6'0, 92kg. 3 caps, 1 try. Signed contract in 2020.

Leinster's clear 1st choice wing pairing this season has been Kearney at 14 and Lowe at 11. ROL has experience on the wing, but it's unclear if he will lineup there again bar off the bench in case of emergency. Adam Byrne is a strict 14 and returns after only making 5 appearances for leinster in the 19/20 season, with 0 appearances in 2020. Kelleher returned to leinster last season from Connacht, he is capable of playing both 11 and 14 and looked explosive in his 7 appearances, scoring 4 tries. Larmour has been focusing on 15, but is capable of playing 11 and 14. Where he settles long term seems to still be up for debate. Finally TOB is capable of playing both wing positions and may be more suited to wing than centre physically, we will have to wait and see what position he focuses on going forward.

Academy/A Team
Michael Silvester(22/Clongowes/DUFC) - 6'0, 90kg.

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Aaron O'Sullivan(20/Exile/Blackrock) - 6'2, 95kg.

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Max O'Reilly(20/St. Gerards/DUFC) - 6'1, 86kg

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Niall Comerford(20/Blackrock/UCD) - 6'0, 84kg

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Andrew Smith(20/St.Michaels/Clontarf) - 6'0, 86kg

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Silvester has mostly played 15 but is capable of playing on the wing, needs a big season his in final season in academy setup, O'Sullivan focused on 7's rugby last season and is entering his final year in the academy, while young for Year 3 he has a lot to prove, has the benefit of being a big wing by leinster academy standards. Smith was a star left wing for the A team and irish u20's last season, can he push for 1st team rugby next season? Comerford is a right wing, who was involved with Leinster A last season but was unable to push for an academy place with the irish 20's due to injury and covid. O'Reilly has been a fullback primarily underage, but can play win also.

[mildlyinterested]

Underage
Josh O'Connor(U20/Wexford RFC/UCD) - 6'0

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Chris Cosgrave(U20/St. Michaels) - 6'0

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Jamie Osborne(U20/Naas RFC) - 6'3

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Ed Kelly(U20/St. Michaels) - 5'11

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Matthew McGettrick(U20/Terenure) - 6'1

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O'Connor, Cosgrave and Osborne were all set to be irish u19 players this season before covid struck, O'Connor and Osborne have rare physical traits for leinster underage wings - O'Connor in his size and Osborne in his height. Both are somewhat raw coming from a club background. Cosgrave has the typical leinster schools winger physical profile that has been produced this decade and while a very talented footballer will need to bulk up and prove his ability at u20 level. Kelly falls into the same category, though not as notable a footballer as Cosgrave or his older brother Jack. Finally McGettrick is an impressive athlete but i'd be surprised if he pushed for an academy place.

[leinsterforever]

Smith is probably the most exciting prospect?

His tackling needs a bit of work from what I've seen. Maybe 7s would be a good route for him to improve that.

[mildlyinterested]

Smith is probably the most exciting prospect?

His tackling needs a bit of work from what I've seen. Maybe 7s would be a good route for him to improve that.

yeah of the wings out of underage rugby.

7's? No thanks, too much of talent to be sending him off to them for a year with no prospect of 7's rugby anytime soon.

[hugonaut]

I think we will see a good bit of Tommy O'Brien on the wing this season – not just as a wing, but he will get minutes there. He has got a winger's pace and played there extensively at age-grade level. He's also a guy that the coaching staff want to get involved and get up to speed. The lad is a big time talent with lots of mettle, intelligence, leadership and a serious competitive edge.

I can see him getting quite a lot of minutes at either No11 or No23 for the first part of the season.

We were too heavy at wing this season. Next season we'll be either very efficient or a little light. James Lowe will be like James Ryan from now on - max. 15 games/season for Leinster. So there will be a bit of a gap there to fill.

[mildlyinterested]

I think we will see a good bit of Tommy O'Brien on the wing this season – not just as a wing, but he will get minutes there. He has got a winger's pace and played there extensively at age-grade level. He's also a guy that the coaching staff want to get involved and get up to speed. The lad is a big time talent with lots of mettle, intelligence, leadership and a serious competitive edge.

I can see him getting quite a lot of minutes at either No11 or No23 for the first part of the season.

We were too heavy at wing this season. Next season we'll be either very efficient or a little light. James Lowe will be like James Ryan from now on - max. 15 games/season for Leinster. So there will be a bit of a gap there to fill.

It would make sense, hopefully he can push on and stay healthy.

Realistically ROL probably won't play wing so... possible depth chart:

11. Lowe/Kelleher/TOB
14. Kearney/Byrne/TOB

[hugonaut]

Realistically ROL probably won't play wing so... possible depth chart:

11. Lowe/Kelleher/TOB
14. Kearney/Byrne/TOB

Exactly how I see it. I have been wrong many times before though!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think we will see a good bit of Tommy O'Brien on the wing this season – not just as a wing, but he will get minutes there. He has got a winger's pace and played there extensively at age-grade level. He's also a guy that the coaching staff want to get involved and get up to speed. The lad is a big time talent with lots of mettle, intelligence, leadership and a serious competitive edge.

I can see him getting quite a lot of minutes at either No11 or No23 for the first part of the season.

We were too heavy at wing this season. Next season we'll be either very efficient or a little light. James Lowe will be like James Ryan from now on - max. 15 games/season for Leinster. So there will be a bit of a gap there to fill.

I agree with all that in theory but he doesn't look as quick to me since his return from injury. Maybe that will come with time or maybe he bulked up a bit for pro rugby/to play centre but he doesn't seem as nippy.

[mildlyinterested]

remember when: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZp3MhJ5eF8

[mildlyinterested]

Andrew Smith try: https://youtu.be/h6h6q8KYYKU?t=97
Max O'Reilly try: https://youtu.be/BOQDZ7yQpEI?t=93
Jamie Osborne try: https://youtu.be/eoFDlBNHlU4?t=92
Josh O'Connor try: https://youtu.be/pNSZOzdSr0E?t=139

O'Connor(13) & Osborne(15) prominent in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBgByJ-Z-M&t=217s

[Workhorse]

I think it's grossly unfair to use the school someone went to as the basis to judge them by whether they're likely to push on or not. I don't get the dismissal of 7s either, 7s can seriously improve certain aspects of a players game, more than 15s can at times even. There are also some seriously talented players and coaches in the setup so learning from some new faces could be really beneficial to some players

[mildlyinterested]

the 2020 7's season is cancelled, I'd rather Smith was involved with the leinster setup in that scenario.

Also i'd hope that Smith would be ready for pro 14 rugby in 2021, leinster could do with their academy outside backs pushing for pro 14 game time, not playing 7's.

[Workhorse]

No offence but you really are not in a position to state something like that. You have absolutely no idea what players key work ons are, where they are in their development or anything along those lines and I highly doubt you're a top level coach that knows how best to work on those things. If Smith goes to 7s people with far more expertise than us have decided that that's what's best for him and it probably is if that's the case

[mildlyinterested]

No offence but you really are not in a position to state something like that. You have absolutely no idea what players key work ons are, where they are in their development or anything along those lines and I highly doubt you're a top level coach that knows how best to work on those things. If Smith goes to 7s people with far more expertise than us have decided that that's what's best for him and it probably is if that's the case

right so I can't express my opinion about what I'd like to see smith do next season because i'm not his coach, great.

[Workhorse]

right so I can't express my opinion about what I'd like to see smith do next season because i'm not his coach, great.

Your own opinion was a dismissal of someone suggesting that 7s might be a good option. All I'm doing is telling you that you're not in a position to say if 7s would be a good route or not.

[Morf]

right so I can't express my opinion about what I'd like to see smith do next season because i'm not his coach, great.

Your own opinion was a dismissal of someone suggesting that 7s might be a good option. All I'm doing is telling you that you're not in a position to say if 7s would be a good route or not.

It's probably more telling to look at the results of sevens in terms of value provided to 15s.

The more professional it's gotten the further it has moved to it's own very specific athletic demands and less focus on 15s skills and requirements. 7s isn't a way to deliberately up-skill a player for 15s rather to do something quite separate and hope it improves them for 15s.

[ronk]

If you play for a team where the wings stand around getting cold, or chase kicks all day long then 7s does give a chance to work on other skills.

It’s a more forgiving environment for things like offloading or having space.

[Workhorse]

It's probably more telling to look at the results of sevens in terms of value provided to 15s.

The more professional it's gotten the further it has moved to it's own very specific athletic demands and less focus on 15s skills and requirements. 7s isn't a way to deliberately up-skill a player for 15s rather to do something quite separate and hope it improves them for 15s.

As I said it's more for people with a better knowledge of the skills a player needs to work on and a better idea of how to go about that to decide whether or not 7s is a good place to develop those skills than posters on a forum who are more often wrong than right and if they are right it's probably by accident (and yes I include myself in that).

7s can certainly be a way to upskill a player in certain areas but if those are the right areas and the right way to do it none of us know.

[mildlyinterested]

So updated options post academy announcement:

Dave Kearney(31) - 5'11, 90kg. 148 caps, 41 tries. Signed contract in 2019.
James Lowe(28) - 6'2, 100kg. 43 caps, 28 tries. Signed 3 yr contract in 2020.
Rory O'Loughlin(26) - 6'2, 94kg. 67 caps, 21 tries. Signed contract in 2020.
Adam Byrne(26) - 6'3, 98kg. 57 caps, 20 tries. Signed contract in 2020.
Cian Kelleher(26) - 5'11, 92kg. 14 caps, 5 tries. Signed contract in 2019.
Jordan Larmour(23) - 5'10, 87kg. 46 caps, 12 tries. Signed contract in 2020.
Tommy O'Brien(22) - 6'0, 92kg. 3 caps, 1 try. Signed contract in 2020.
--
Michael Silvester(22) - 6'0, 90kg. Academy Y3
Aaron O'Sullivan(20) - 6'2 95kg. Academy Y3
Max O'Reilly(20) - 6'1, 84kg. Academy Y1
Andrew Smith(20) - 6'0, 86kg. Academy Y1
Niall Comerford(20) - 6'0, 84kg. Academy Y1

[leinsterforever]

I think we will see a good bit of Tommy O'Brien on the wing this season – not just as a wing, but he will get minutes there. He has got a winger's pace and played there extensively at age-grade level. He's also a guy that the coaching staff want to get involved and get up to speed. The lad is a big time talent with lots of mettle, intelligence, leadership and a serious competitive edge.

I can see him getting quite a lot of minutes at either No11 or No23 for the first part of the season.

We were too heavy at wing this season. Next season we'll be either very efficient or a little light. James Lowe will be like James Ryan from now on - max. 15 games/season for Leinster. So there will be a bit of a gap there to fill.

It would make sense, hopefully he can push on and stay healthy.

Realistically ROL probably won't play wing so... possible depth chart:

11. Lowe/Kelleher/TOB
14. Kearney/Byrne/TOB

It's looking that way with him not having played there for so long and Kelleher being brought back and given gametime in anticipation of Lowe being available less.

I can think of several good reasons to pick him on the wing, though - or at least get him some gametime there as well as having him cover centre:

- Jimmy O'Brien is a better tackler in the OC channel. ROL isn't a bad defender in terms of making reads, but he is susceptible to slipping off tackles, which isn't ideal for a 13. Also, JOB just looks like too good a player to have down as third choice. You've advocated considering him at 15, but I think a better use of that slot would be for getting Frawley extra gametime now that Harry Byrne has broken through.

- ROL looks well placed to nab the #23 jersey when the strongest possible selection is being put out. I would say that means it would be a good idea to give him some minutes in a position he'll be covering off the bench.

- Something has to change for ROL if he's to get back in the mix internationally. I would say he's got more to give than just being a one-cap wonder. But at the moment there's no sniff of him adding to his tally of caps. He's probably not going to pass out Lowe, Henshaw or Ringrose in the positions they play, but if he's a player who has the versatility to to a high standard play both centre positions and on the left wing he could be a tempting pick for a coach in, say, a World Cup squad. It worked for McFadden. The season he got capped he was playing 11 as well as 13, and since, when he hasn't got a look in with Ireland, he's just been focusing on 13 (and occasionally 12 in emergencies). Correlation doesn't mean causation; you can't just assume no longer playing wing is the reason he isn't getting selected in Irish squads, but my own view is that he offers a lot as a winger. Kelleher has been good, but I think I'd prefer to see JOB at 13 and ROL at 11 when the internationals are absent rather than Kelleher at 11 and ROL at outside centre.

They're my thoughts on it anyway.