Centre Options going forward

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CiaranIrl
Seán Cronin
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by CiaranIrl »

wixfjord wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 3:03 pm
CiaranIrl wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 2:57 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 2:16 pm
Robbie Henshaw(28) - central contact until 2022.
Rory O'Loughlin(27/St.Michaels/Old Belvedere) - Signed contract in 2020.
Garry Ringrose(26/Blackrock/UCD) - Signed 2 yr central contract in 2020.
Conor O'Brien(25/Mullingar RFC/Clontarf) - Signed contract in 2019.
Jimmy O'Brien(24/Newbridge/UCD) - Signed contract in 2019.
Ciaran Frawley(23/Skerries RFC/UCD) - Signed contract in 2019.
Tommy O'Brien(23/Blackrock/UCD) - Signed contract in 2020.
David Hawkshaw(22/Belvedere/Clontarf) - Academy Y3.
Liam Turner(22/Blackrock/DUFC) - Academy Y2.
--
Marcus Kiely(U20/Newbridge/Naas)
Jamie Osborne(U20/Naas RFC/Naas)
Karl Martin(U19/Boyne RFC/Old Belvedere)

Osborne could end up in the back three, but listing him here given his physical maturation and appearances for the A's. Kiely and Martin are both big physical centres by leinster standards. It wouldn't surprise me to see all three sub-academy players listed join the academy, given Osborne's versatility.
Thanks for these updates sir. Much appreciated.

Based on recent evidence, we need all three. I've been a bit unconvinced in recent games that Turner, Jimmy O'Brien or Hawkshaw can live with the physicality for centre.

Find this a bit strange, can I ask why?
Yeah, like Mildly said, I think he's a hugely promising Full Back. I just don't think he has the bulk for centre, and I don't think his style of play lends itself to putting on more bulk. Watching him against Connacht a few weeks ago, there were a few moments that stood out to me. I can't think of them all off hand, but a bounce off a tackle for their second try comes to mind.

I'm not saying that those three players aren't good enough at all. I just think that centre at the highest level is a punishing position, and it might not the the right fit for them. It's not like it was when O'Driscoll and D'Arcy were coming through. The other two o'brien's seem like more like centre candidates.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”

wixfjord
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by wixfjord »

CiaranIrl wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 4:26 pm


Yeah, like Mildly said, I think he's a hugely promising Full Back. I just don't think he has the bulk for centre, and I don't think his style of play lends itself to putting on more bulk. Watching him against Connacht a few weeks ago, there were a few moments that stood out to me. I can't think of them all off hand, but a bounce off a tackle for their second try comes to mind.

I'm not saying that those three players aren't good enough at all. I just think that centre at the highest level is a punishing position, and it might not the the right fit for them. It's not like it was when O'Driscoll and D'Arcy were coming through. The other two o'brien's seem like more like centre candidates.
He was playing 10 for the majority of the Conn game though.

I agree I prefer JOB at 15 too, think he adds a lovely extra playmaker option.

But I don't think anything we've seen at the moment would indicate he hasn't the size for 13. He's 6' and 14 st, not far off RInger or ROL really.

Turner and Hawkshaw are different stories imo.

TOB would probably be a better fit than JOB at 13 though alright.

Purist98
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by Purist98 »

Simon O'Kelly still involved with sub academy at all?

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ronk
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by ronk »

Fullback is an important position. Keenan has changed the dynamic because Larmour can look to the wing again. Keenan can go wing when necessary and they made good options for the squad.

I think we stick with the other centres.

Blue Man
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by Blue Man »

I like having J O’Brien, Frawley and Hawkshaw as options in the center, all offer a second footballer option.
C O’Brien has massive potential but has been really unlucky with injuries; I had hoped that this would be his breakthrough season. Turner has been very good this season and looks like a solid squad player. Similarly T O’Brien, another who got a nasty injury.
There are a lot of very capable players there but are there any world class players coming through? Positive reviews on Osborne, hope he can come through.

mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

world class centres are very hard to produce.. leinster produced 1 in the last decade in Ringrose and he was more by luck than anything else.

Kiely, Martin and Osborne are all big athletes which is almost a requirement at the position now, we will have to wait and see how they develop & perform over the next year or two when they are playing against similar level of competition.

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curates_egg
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by curates_egg »

Ahem

Image

mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Image

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hugonaut
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by hugonaut »

By Match:

Match #01 | vs Dragons: Frawley [Tommy O'Brien, 9 mins] & Ringrose - [Combo #1] x1
Match #02 | @ Treviso: Henshaw & Ringrose - [Combo #2] x1
Match #03 | vs Zebre: Frawley [Silvester, 64 mins] & Turner - [Combo #3] x1
Match #04 | @ Glasgow: Tommy O'Brien & O'Loughlin - [Combo #4] x1
Match #05 | @ Ospreys: Tommy O'Brien [O'Sullivan, 65] & O'Loughlin [Turner, 59] - [Combo #4] x2
Match #06 | vs Edinbrugh: Frawley & Turner - [Combo #3] x2
Match #07 | vs Blues: Frawley & Turner - [Combo #3] x3
Match #08 | @ Montpellier: Frawley & Henshaw - [Combo #5] x1
Match #09 | vs Northampton: Henshaw & Ringrose [Frawley 12, 75] - [Combo #2] x2
Match #10 | vs Connacht: O'Loughlin [Hawkshaw, 56] & Jimmy O'Brien [O'Sullivan, 62] - [Combo #6] x1
Match #11 | vs Ulster: Robbie Henshaw & Ross Byrne - [Combo #7] x1
Match #12 | @ Munster: Henshaw & Ringrose - [Combo #2] x3
Match #13 | @ Dragons: Ross Byrne [Hawkshaw, 77] & O'Loughlin - [Combo #8] x1
Match #14 | vs Glasgow: O'Loughlin & Osborne - [Combo #9] x1
Match #15 | @ Ulster: O'Loughlin & Jimmy O'Brien [Osborne, 73] - [Combo #6] x2
Match #16 | @ Zebre: O'Loughlin & Jimmy O'Brien [Osborne, 52] - [Combo #6] x3
Match #17 | vs Ospreys: Frawley [Corkery,79] & Osborne - [Combo #10] x1
Match #18 | vs Munster: Henshaw & O'Loughlin - [Combo #11] x1

By Combination:

Combo #1: Frawley & Ringrose [1 game - vs Dragons]
Combo #2: Henshaw & Ringrose [3 games - @ Treviso, vs Northampton, @ Munster]
Combo #3: Frawley & Turner [3 games - vs Zebre, vs Edinburgh*, vs Cardiff Blues*]
Combo #4: Tommy O'Brien & O'Loughlin [2 games - @ Glasgow*, @ Ospreys*]
Combo #5: Frawley & Henshaw [1 game - @ Montpellier]
Combo #6: O'Loughlin & Jimmy O'Brien [3 games - vs Connacht, @ Ulster*, @ Zebre*]
Combo #7: Henshaw & Ross Byrne [1 game - vs Ulster]
Combo #8: Ross Byrne & O'Loughlin [1 game - @ Dragons]
Combo #9: O'Loughlin & Osborne [1 game - vs Glasgow]
Combo #10: Frawley & Osborne [1 game - vs Ospreys]
Combo #11: Henshaw & O'Loughlin [1 game - vs Munster]

* consecutive games

By Appearance at centre [starts+subs]:

1. R. O'Loughlin: 8+0
2. C. Frawley: 7+1
3. R. Henshaw: 6+0
4. L. Turner: 4+1
5. G. Ringrose: 4+0
6. J. O'Brien: 3+0
7. J. Osborne: 2+2
8. T. O'Brien: 2+1
9. R. Byrne: 2+0
10. D.Hawkshaw: 0+2
11. H. O'Sullivan: 0+2
12. M. Silvester: 0+1

Very significant amount of different centre partnerships this year, due somewhat to international call ups but mostly due to injury. This has certainly had an impact on the coherency of our attack and the manner in which we score tries - it seems to me that a pretty significant proportion of our tries have come from bludgeoning over at close range having established good position. Our centres haven't scored many tries:

Ross Byrne: 0 tries at centre [2+0]
Ciaran Frawley: 1 try at centre [7+1]
Robbie Henshaw: 1 try @ centre [6+0]
Jimmy O'Brien: 0 tries @ centre [3+0] / [3 @ fullback]
Tommy O'Brien: 0 tries @ centre [2+1] / [2 @ wing]
Rory O'Loughlin: 0 tries @ centre [8+0]
Garry Ringrose: 1 try @ centre [4+0]
Liam Turner: 0 tries @ centre [4+1]
Jamie Osborne: 1 try @ centre [2+2]

Ruckedtobits
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by Ruckedtobits »

So two potential "parnerships made in heaven" - Frawley & Henshaw and Frawley & Ringrose have only appeared once each against Dragons and Montpellier. That really has been a shame in such a disjointed season.

Great research @hugonaut

mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

hugonaut wrote:
March 29th, 2021, 12:25 pm
By Match:

Match #01 | vs Dragons: Frawley [Tommy O'Brien, 9 mins] & Ringrose - [Combo #1] x1
Match #02 | @ Treviso: Henshaw & Ringrose - [Combo #2] x1
Match #03 | vs Zebre: Frawley [Silvester, 64 mins] & Turner - [Combo #3] x1
Match #04 | @ Glasgow: Tommy O'Brien & O'Loughlin - [Combo #4] x1
Match #05 | @ Ospreys: Tommy O'Brien [O'Sullivan, 65] & O'Loughlin [Turner, 59] - [Combo #4] x2
Match #06 | vs Edinbrugh: Frawley & Turner - [Combo #3] x2
Match #07 | vs Blues: Frawley & Turner - [Combo #3] x3
Match #08 | @ Montpellier: Frawley & Henshaw - [Combo #5] x1
Match #09 | vs Northampton: Henshaw & Ringrose [Frawley 12, 75] - [Combo #2] x2
Match #10 | vs Connacht: O'Loughlin [Hawkshaw, 56] & Jimmy O'Brien [O'Sullivan, 62] - [Combo #6] x1
Match #11 | vs Ulster: Robbie Henshaw & Ross Byrne - [Combo #7] x1
Match #12 | @ Munster: Henshaw & Ringrose - [Combo #2] x3
Match #13 | @ Dragons: Ross Byrne [Hawkshaw, 77] & O'Loughlin - [Combo #8] x1
Match #14 | vs Glasgow: O'Loughlin & Osborne - [Combo #9] x1
Match #15 | @ Ulster: O'Loughlin & Jimmy O'Brien [Osborne, 73] - [Combo #6] x2
Match #16 | @ Zebre: O'Loughlin & Jimmy O'Brien [Osborne, 52] - [Combo #6] x3
Match #17 | vs Ospreys: Frawley [Corkery,79] & Osborne - [Combo #10] x1
Match #18 | vs Munster: Henshaw & O'Loughlin - [Combo #11] x1

By Combination:

Combo #1: Frawley & Ringrose [1 game - vs Dragons]
Combo #2: Henshaw & Ringrose [3 games - @ Treviso, vs Northampton, @ Munster]
Combo #3: Frawley & Turner [3 games - vs Zebre, vs Edinburgh*, vs Cardiff Blues*]
Combo #4: Tommy O'Brien & O'Loughlin [2 games - @ Glasgow*, @ Ospreys*]
Combo #5: Frawley & Henshaw [1 game - @ Montpellier]
Combo #6: O'Loughlin & Jimmy O'Brien [3 games - vs Connacht, @ Ulster*, @ Zebre*]
Combo #7: Henshaw & Ross Byrne [1 game - vs Ulster]
Combo #8: Ross Byrne & O'Loughlin [1 game - @ Dragons]
Combo #9: O'Loughlin & Osborne [1 game - vs Glasgow]
Combo #10: Frawley & Osborne [1 game - vs Ospreys]
Combo #11: Henshaw & O'Loughlin [1 game - vs Munster]

* consecutive games

By Appearance at centre [starts+subs]:

1. R. O'Loughlin: 8+0
2. C. Frawley: 7+1
3. R. Henshaw: 6+0
4. L. Turner: 4+1
5. G. Ringrose: 4+0
6. J. O'Brien: 3+0
7. J. Osborne: 2+2
8. T. O'Brien: 2+1
9. R. Byrne: 2+0
10. D.Hawkshaw: 0+2
11. H. O'Sullivan: 0+2
12. M. Silvester: 0+1

Very significant amount of different centre partnerships this year, due somewhat to international call ups but mostly due to injury. This has certainly had an impact on the coherency of our attack and the manner in which we score tries - it seems to me that a pretty significant proportion of our tries have come from bludgeoning over at close range having established good position. Our centres haven't scored many tries:

Ross Byrne: 0 tries at centre [2+0]
Ciaran Frawley: 1 try at centre [7+1]
Robbie Henshaw: 1 try @ centre [6+0]
Jimmy O'Brien: 0 tries @ centre [3+0] / [3 @ fullback]
Tommy O'Brien: 0 tries @ centre [2+1] / [2 @ wing]
Rory O'Loughlin: 0 tries @ centre [8+0]
Garry Ringrose: 1 try @ centre [4+0]
Liam Turner: 0 tries @ centre [4+1]
Jamie Osborne: 1 try @ centre [2+2]
Thanks for that hugo.. I'm pretty sure Hugie and Silvester replaced a centre but moved to fullback with someone moving to 13 but i'd have to go back and look.

Such a shame injury had really held back several players here.. thankfully Henshaw has had an injury free run and really found form.

What they do going forward will be interesting.. I see JOB focusing more and more on playing in the back three next season and I wouldn't rule out ROL returning to the wing more often with Kelleher likely leaving.

Hopefully COB can return from injury and remind us all about his ability, the same goes for TOB.

After that I don't see Turner having a future beyond the academy and I see Osborne having a huge future.. I just don't know in what position.

Finally the converting outhalves.. Frawley at 12 needs to be persisted with long term.. Hawkshaw? I'm not sure, what to make of it.

backrower8
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by backrower8 »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
March 29th, 2021, 12:32 pm
So two potential "parnerships made in heaven" - Frawley & Henshaw and Frawley & Ringrose have only appeared once each against Dragons and Montpellier. That really has been a shame in such a disjointed season.

Great research @hugonaut
A third combo matching that description and only getting one game is..."Combo #10: Frawley & Osborne [1 game - vs Ospreys]" #futureproof

mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Image

Is it me or is Frawley starting to really fill out and look like a modern centre?

erskinechilders
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Re: Centre Options going forward

Post by erskinechilders »

I think that might explain a few things. He certainly looks bigger than he was. If he can start to hold his own against fellow 6'4 centres than we'll have a real descision to make.

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