Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by leinsterforever »

I think Frawley has huge upside as a 10. I can understand people wanting to see him playing there. But, as Ronk says, there's no obvious destination for him. I mean, I'd pick him ahead of Burns up in Ulster, but selectors might disagree.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

Frawley hasn’t played outhalf this season. He’d be moving to be a backup wherever he went.

He’s on track to lock in 12 behind Henshaw (when everyone it fit), Henshaw misses a lot of Leinster games. He then has a good shot of Heineken Cup selection if Henshaw or Ringrose are out (move Henshaw).

Add in versatility and he’s a good shout for a bench in either a 4-3 split or a 5-2 split.

That might change as other players like Hawkshaw and Turner develop and depending on Madigans contract renewal.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Flash Gordon »

mildlyinterested wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 8:54 pm
Luke Fitz on his soapbox about Frawley needing to leave Leinster.

seems to think he is the best young 10 in Leinster and needs to leave or he will "ruin his career"
I really like Frawley and would love to see him at 10. Assuming Fitzgerald has a point, where would he go? Ulster have 10 Irish international outlaves, Connacht have one. When Carbery comes back he's Munster's starting 10 and JJ is a decent player. So there's a bit of a log jam wherever he goes.

FRo ma development point of view I'd really like to see us come to an agreement with a second tier French, Kiwi or English club to get these lads out on loan and playing and learning. Same goes for Hawkshaw coming through.
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by mildlyinterested »

Fitz seemed to think anywhere but Leinster or his career would be ruined. :roll:

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by erskinechilders »

Yeah I can't see the benefit of Frawley leaving Leinster. As Ronk said, due to his versatility he can cover 10 & 12 ( 15 at a push ) on the Leinster bench. Add that to the fact that he's clearly our second choice 12. With Henshaw/ Ringrose missing plenty of Leinster games he could be reasonably expected to be involved in the vast majority of match day 23's. If he leaves Leinster he's got 4 options really

1. Go to Munster and sit behind Carbery, Healy, Crowley, Scannell, De Allende & others. A non runner.
2. Go to Ulster and sit behind Burns ( he could push Burns ), then McCloskey, Marshall & Stewart Moore. Not to mention Hyde coming through. Another non runner.
3. Go to Connacht and sit behind Carty, Aki, Farrell, Daly & others.
4. Go abroad and give up aspirations of representing Ireland for a long time.

In my opinion, he should just have patience. Sexton won't last past the summer of 2022. Harry Byrne will more than likely leapfrog Ross to become Leinsters first choice outhalf. Then Frawley realistically only has Byrne for competition.I think 12 is Frawley's long term position, and I would like him to develop there at Leinster.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Lock9541 »

Frawley is also Australian qualified if it doesn’t work out in Ireland he can always move to Australia.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Lock9541 »

Frawley is also Australian qualified if it doesn’t work out in Ireland he can always move to Australia.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by CiaranIrl »

erskinechilders wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:48 am
Yeah I can't see the benefit of Frawley leaving Leinster. As Ronk said, due to his versatility he can cover 10 & 12 ( 15 at a push ) on the Leinster bench. Add that to the fact that he's clearly our second choice 12. With Henshaw/ Ringrose missing plenty of Leinster games he could be reasonably expected to be involved in the vast majority of match day 23's. If he leaves Leinster he's got 4 options really

1. Go to Munster and sit behind Carbery, Healy, Crowley, Scannell, De Allende & others. A non runner.
2. Go to Ulster and sit behind Burns ( he could push Burns ), then McCloskey, Marshall & Stewart Moore. Not to mention Hyde coming through. Another non runner.
3. Go to Connacht and sit behind Carty, Aki, Farrell, Daly & others.
4. Go abroad and give up aspirations of representing Ireland for a long time.

In my opinion, he should just have patience. Sexton won't last past the summer of 2022. Harry Byrne will more than likely leapfrog Ross to become Leinsters first choice outhalf. Then Frawley realistically only has Byrne for competition.I think 12 is Frawley's long term position, and I would like him to develop there at Leinster.
It would be terrible for Leinster if he leaves, but it's not realistic to say that it would be terrible for Frawley if he joined Ulster, say. He definitely has the ability to become first choice there at either 10 or 12. He's much more talented than Burns or Mccloskey.

If he sees himself as a 10, he has a big queue ahead of him in Leinster. If he sees himself as a 12, he has a pretty young Henshaw ahead of him for the foreseeable.

Hopefully the love of his province is enough to keep him here, but I wouldn't begrudge a move to Ulster. Munster though? f%~k that.
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Lock9541 »

CiaranIrl wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 10:24 am
erskinechilders wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:48 am
Yeah I can't see the benefit of Frawley leaving Leinster. As Ronk said, due to his versatility he can cover 10 & 12 ( 15 at a push ) on the Leinster bench. Add that to the fact that he's clearly our second choice 12. With Henshaw/ Ringrose missing plenty of Leinster games he could be reasonably expected to be involved in the vast majority of match day 23's. If he leaves Leinster he's got 4 options really

1. Go to Munster and sit behind Carbery, Healy, Crowley, Scannell, De Allende & others. A non runner.
2. Go to Ulster and sit behind Burns ( he could push Burns ), then McCloskey, Marshall & Stewart Moore. Not to mention Hyde coming through. Another non runner.
3. Go to Connacht and sit behind Carty, Aki, Farrell, Daly & others.
4. Go abroad and give up aspirations of representing Ireland for a long time.

In my opinion, he should just have patience. Sexton won't last past the summer of 2022. Harry Byrne will more than likely leapfrog Ross to become Leinsters first choice outhalf. Then Frawley realistically only has Byrne for competition.I think 12 is Frawley's long term position, and I would like him to develop there at Leinster.
It would be terrible for Leinster if he leaves, but it's not realistic to say that it would be terrible for Frawley if he joined Ulster, say. He definitely has the ability to become first choice there at either 10 or 12. He's much more talented than Burns or Mccloskey.

If he sees himself as a 10, he has a big queue ahead of him in Leinster. If he sees himself as a 12, he has a pretty young Henshaw ahead of him for the foreseeable.

Hopefully the love of his province is enough to keep him here, but I wouldn't begrudge a move to Ulster. Munster though? f%~k that.
Maybe we play Frawley at 15 for he’ll be more likely to start European cup games?

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Laighin Break »

I don't think Frawley is any more likely to start at 15 where he'd be behind Keenan and potentially JOB, both who have been excellent at 15 the past 1-2 years.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

Am we cut to the chase and just call Luke Fitz a c~*k?

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by hugonaut »

If I was advising Frawley, I'd tell him he should concentrate on No12. The Harry Byrne/Frawley midfield looks extremely potent to me – a real blueprint for how Leinster can move forward. Two players at the midfield knuckle who can pass, kick, run and make decisions with real skill. I also don't think that Frawley is as good an outhalf as Harry Byrne and, conversely, there's no evidence that Harry can play No12 to the same level as Frawley. I think they complement each other very well though.

If you pick Frawley at No12, there's a bit of a trade off in physicality. It seems to me that some commentators are terrified of that. You aren't going to get the same amount of gainline from Frawley in traffic as you get from, for example, Aki or McCloskey. But Aki can't pass and can't kick [speaking in absolutes here, for the sake of clarity], and those limitations are far more telling to the operation of a backline attack than somebody who can't do crash balls like it's the mid-90s.

To be successful at test level, I'd argue that you have a greater chance of scoring tries by unpicking the lock [so to speak] rather than trying to bash down the door. Everyone at international level is a willing tackler.

It always surprises me that the same journalists who wrote [especially in Schmidt's last year] about Ireland needing 'a second distributor' in the backline didn't follow the logical path to the realisation that you can play two players who have 'outhalf' skillsets in the same midfield. You can play Harry Byrne and Frawley together. It doesn't have to be either/or.

It seems to me that those journalists were so cautious about the potential of Ireland being found wanting defensively that, despite writing or talking about how we should be more adventurous, or allow players to make more decisions on the pitch, they subconsciously were really worried about what happens if you actually do pick a combination like that. And other journalists or media commentators were more concerned with the fact that Aki was qualified by residency than by the fact that he's a No12 who basically cannot kick the ball at all - place kick, drop goal, clearance, bomb, chip, grubber ... anything.

The Queensland Maroons shoe-horned about four ball-players into a thirteen man team for a decade of State of Origin. I think they are a great example, both in terms of individual players and as a team. Their ball-players like Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater etc. had to become really tough cookies, because it's an unforgiving code ... but their coaches had the courage to put them all in the team together, rather than leaving one out for a 'bigger body' or a better athlete.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by joooooe »

hugonaut wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
It always surprises me that the same journalists who wrote [especially in Schmidt's last year] about Ireland needing 'a second distributor' in the backline didn't follow the logical path to the realisation that you can play two players who have 'outhalf' skillsets in the same midfield. You can play Harry Byrne and Frawley together. It doesn't have to be either/or.

It seems to me that those journalists were so cautious about the potential of Ireland being found wanting defensively that, despite writing or talking about how we should be more adventurous, or allow players to make more decisions on the pitch, they subconsciously were really worried about what happens if you actually do pick a combination like that.
The lone voice of dissent has been Shane Horgan. He has become an astute analyst with a very definite view of how Irish teams can play in an era where running straight and hard is not good enough. He has been advocating Carbery at 12 for years, but has recently pivoted to cheerleading for Frawley at 12 instead.

There is no reason other than injury why Ireland in a couple of years could not have Harry Byrne/Ben Healy at 10, Frawley at 12, Ringrose at 13 and Carbery at 15. Henshaw at 23 and that is potentially world class.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Fan with smartphone »

hugonaut wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
If I was advising Frawley, I'd tell him he should concentrate on No12. The Harry Byrne/Frawley midfield looks extremely potent to me – a real blueprint for how Leinster can move forward. Two players at the midfield knuckle who can pass, kick, run and make decisions with real skill. I also don't think that Frawley is as good an outhalf as Harry Byrne and, conversely, there's no evidence that Harry can play No12 to the same level as Frawley. I think they complement each other very well though.

If you pick Frawley at No12, there's a bit of a trade off in physicality. It seems to me that some commentators are terrified of that. You aren't going to get the same amount of gainline from Frawley in traffic as you get from, for example, Aki or McCloskey. But Aki can't pass and can't kick [speaking in absolutes here, for the sake of clarity], and those limitations are far more telling to the operation of a backline attack than somebody who can't do crash balls like it's the mid-90s.

To be successful at test level, I'd argue that you have a greater chance of scoring tries by unpicking the lock [so to speak] rather than trying to bash down the door. Everyone at international level is a willing tackler.

It always surprises me that the same journalists who wrote [especially in Schmidt's last year] about Ireland needing 'a second distributor' in the backline didn't follow the logical path to the realisation that you can play two players who have 'outhalf' skillsets in the same midfield. You can play Harry Byrne and Frawley together. It doesn't have to be either/or.

It seems to me that those journalists were so cautious about the potential of Ireland being found wanting defensively that, despite writing or talking about how we should be more adventurous, or allow players to make more decisions on the pitch, they subconsciously were really worried about what happens if you actually do pick a combination like that. And other journalists or media commentators were more concerned with the fact that Aki was qualified by residency than by the fact that he's a No12 who basically cannot kick the ball at all - place kick, drop goal, clearance, bomb, chip, grubber ... anything.

The Queensland Maroons shoe-horned about four ball-players into a thirteen man team for a decade of State of Origin. I think they are a great example, both in terms of individual players and as a team. Their ball-players like Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater etc. had to become really tough cookies, because it's an unforgiving code ... but their coaches had the courage to put them all in the team together, rather than leaving one out for a 'bigger body' or a better athlete.
That’s a great post. You’ve the template of a squad also for the guts of 10 years to build around there if that went to plan.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

The Ford-Farrell axis has been good for England & Sexton-Farrell was a big success for the Lions.

Normally I’d have been all over Frawleys versatility and keeping it warm but there’s a more tempting prize in having him as a higher level 12 and that’s true for him and for Leinster (& hopefully Ireland).

What I’m not sure about is that I also really like JOB as a distributor 15. But maybe 3 ballers is better than 2. Certainly it’s one way to run up scores when you have a lot of quick ball, I’d worry on the other days when solid truck is needed for go forward or steppers are the only way to unlock a defence.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Morf »

hugonaut wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
The Queensland Maroons shoe-horned about four ball-players into a thirteen man team for a decade of State of Origin. I think they are a great example, both in terms of individual players and as a team. Their ball-players like Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater etc. had to become really tough cookies, because it's an unforgiving code ... but their coaches had the courage to put them all in the team together, rather than leaving one out for a 'bigger body' or a better athlete.
If you keep leaving out Cameron Smith and mentioning the other 3 I'm going to start thinking it's deliberate.
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by erskinechilders »

I think whats really important is that you have a blend of ballers / runners in the back line. I think thats why players like Larmour & Lowe are so important. Obviously Frawley & Byrne can run quite well, and actually Frawley's feet at the gainline are excellent ( remember his step & offload for Luke McGrath's try vs Edinburgh ) . I think his defence is quite solid too. Given Frawleys size (6'4 ) you could reasonably expect him to be able to put a kg or two to improve his bally carrying, but I dont know if this is necessary. The reason the double playmaker works so well in Aus/ NZ is because of their strike runners elsewhere and there forward set up ( 1-3-2-2 for the most part ).

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Peg Leg »

hugonaut wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
If I was advising Frawley, I'd tell him he should concentrate on No12. The Harry Byrne/Frawley midfield looks extremely potent to me – a real blueprint for how Leinster can move forward. Two players at the midfield knuckle who can pass, kick, run and make decisions with real skill. I also don't think that Frawley is as good an outhalf as Harry Byrne and, conversely, there's no evidence that Harry can play No12 to the same level as Frawley. I think they complement each other very well though.

If you pick Frawley at No12, there's a bit of a trade off in physicality. It seems to me that some commentators are terrified of that. You aren't going to get the same amount of gainline from Frawley in traffic as you get from, for example, Aki or McCloskey. But Aki can't pass and can't kick [speaking in absolutes here, for the sake of clarity], and those limitations are far more telling to the operation of a backline attack than somebody who can't do crash balls like it's the mid-90s.

To be successful at test level, I'd argue that you have a greater chance of scoring tries by unpicking the lock [so to speak] rather than trying to bash down the door. Everyone at international level is a willing tackler.

It always surprises me that the same journalists who wrote [especially in Schmidt's last year] about Ireland needing 'a second distributor' in the backline didn't follow the logical path to the realisation that you can play two players who have 'outhalf' skillsets in the same midfield. You can play Harry Byrne and Frawley together. It doesn't have to be either/or.

It seems to me that those journalists were so cautious about the potential of Ireland being found wanting defensively that, despite writing or talking about how we should be more adventurous, or allow players to make more decisions on the pitch, they subconsciously were really worried about what happens if you actually do pick a combination like that. And other journalists or media commentators were more concerned with the fact that Aki was qualified by residency than by the fact that he's a No12 who basically cannot kick the ball at all - place kick, drop goal, clearance, bomb, chip, grubber ... anything.

The Queensland Maroons shoe-horned about four ball-players into a thirteen man team for a decade of State of Origin. I think they are a great example, both in terms of individual players and as a team. Their ball-players like Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater etc. had to become really tough cookies, because it's an unforgiving code ... but their coaches had the courage to put them all in the team together, rather than leaving one out for a 'bigger body' or a better athlete.
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

hugonaut wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
If I was advising Frawley, I'd tell him he should concentrate on No12. The Harry Byrne/Frawley midfield looks extremely potent to me – a real blueprint for how Leinster can move forward. Two players at the midfield knuckle who can pass, kick, run and make decisions with real skill. I also don't think that Frawley is as good an outhalf as Harry Byrne and, conversely, there's no evidence that Harry can play No12 to the same level as Frawley. I think they complement each other very well though.

If you pick Frawley at No12, there's a bit of a trade off in physicality. It seems to me that some commentators are terrified of that. You aren't going to get the same amount of gainline from Frawley in traffic as you get from, for example, Aki or McCloskey. But Aki can't pass and can't kick [speaking in absolutes here, for the sake of clarity], and those limitations are far more telling to the operation of a backline attack than somebody who can't do crash balls like it's the mid-90s.

To be successful at test level, I'd argue that you have a greater chance of scoring tries by unpicking the lock [so to speak] rather than trying to bash down the door. Everyone at international level is a willing tackler.

It always surprises me that the same journalists who wrote [especially in Schmidt's last year] about Ireland needing 'a second distributor' in the backline didn't follow the logical path to the realisation that you can play two players who have 'outhalf' skillsets in the same midfield. You can play Harry Byrne and Frawley together. It doesn't have to be either/or.

It seems to me that those journalists were so cautious about the potential of Ireland being found wanting defensively that, despite writing or talking about how we should be more adventurous, or allow players to make more decisions on the pitch, they subconsciously were really worried about what happens if you actually do pick a combination like that. And other journalists or media commentators were more concerned with the fact that Aki was qualified by residency than by the fact that he's a No12 who basically cannot kick the ball at all - place kick, drop goal, clearance, bomb, chip, grubber ... anything.

The Queensland Maroons shoe-horned about four ball-players into a thirteen man team for a decade of State of Origin. I think they are a great example, both in terms of individual players and as a team. Their ball-players like Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater etc. had to become really tough cookies, because it's an unforgiving code ... but their coaches had the courage to put them all in the team together, rather than leaving one out for a 'bigger body' or a better athlete.
Great post Hugo and I agree with a lot of it.

I'm not sure if there was a natural second receiver other than Joey though and I wouldn't want him at 12 myself, but it still bugs me that he wasn't used as a weapon at 15 for Ireland.

I slightly disagree about focusing on 12. I do agree that it should be his main position but I reckon he should be playing a fair bit at fullback too and then covering ten the odd time. Said it ages ago that I thought that's the kind of role he'd play once Rob retired but injuries, covid, and the emergence of guys like JOB have hampered that. Ordinarily I don't like guys being shifted around the place but I think there could be a very clear plan for Frawley and he strikes me as having the ability to do it and it would mean that he'd be a great bench option. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with himself and Harry being on the bench together for a big European game. You could have Harry covering Sexton and then Frawley coming in for Henshaw or Ringrose and shift Henshaw out one if it was the for the latter, imagine him running lines off the two distributors? Or he could come on at 15 and Hugo could shift to the wing.

Which brings me on to my next point. I can kind of understand the reluctance to go for a baller instead of someone like Aki (although personally I think Aki is where backplay goes to die and that we need to move on), but what I can never understand is the reluctance to make that kind of change from the bench. I hate the idea of just a straight swap for a player in the hopes that the fresh guy will play better, I much prefer an option to fundamentally change how the team is going to play. For example I don't think Larmour replacing Earls is great when there's no real plan of how to get your right wing into the game, I'd prefer a plan for a second receiver that might actually get Earls on the ball. Aki not being on the bench for the last two weekends makes me hopeful that we're going in the right direction but we need to do more.

There's been a lot of talk about Ireland's poor attack this week and how we should play. That got me thinking about the players coming through and the style that might get the best out of them. When you look through them a lot of the forwards are very mobile with big engines (EOS, Sheehan, TOT, Clarkson, Baird, Ahern, Doris etc) and there are loads of ballers in the backs who like to play flat and at a quick tempo (Casey, Harry Byrne, Frawley, Crowley, Hawkshaw). Now fair enough it's not unusual to have forwards with big engines or backs who like to pass (and there are some big lumps who will add grunt as well), but my point is that a lot of the blue chip prospects that will backbone the Ireland team will have the ability to play at a really high tempo and I think we should end up with a style of play that suits them. There could also be a big shift in how the game is played to deal with concussion and over time that will (IMO) lead to a much faster and less collision based sport that will suit those guys, so combine the two and we could be on to a winner.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by leinsterforever »

Agree with that, LRIP. If you had a physical 12 who can also play 13 - Henshaw or COB - starting at inside centre and Frawley on the bench you could spring Frawley early in the second half and move the 12 out to 13. That would ask different questions of a defence. A bench role might be Frawley's best bet of featuring internationally as an inside centre (initially anyway) as I could see them being a bit hesitant to move away from the security of a truck-it-up 12. Paddy Wallace got a shot when Darcy was injured, but apart from that it's been Maggs, Darcy, Henderson and Henshaw.

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