Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

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Dexter
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Dexter »

Peg Leg wrote:
August 20th, 2020, 3:02 pm
wixfjord wrote:
August 19th, 2020, 2:00 pm
What exactly is there to take offence at there?!

I mean are we not all agree that we have a glut of talent at 10 and if Sexton keeps going it's possible that one of the other three may need to move or move position to fulfil their potential?

Frawley is seemingly already playing at 10.

It's the same thing in the backrow.
Ah we've seen this before with the "Leinster Riches at Scrum Half" article setting the mood music for Nick McCarthy's exit.

My preference here would be for Sexton to move down to Munster for next season. He'd love it down there.
:lol: :clap:
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mildlyinterested
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by mildlyinterested »

interesting enough discussion on Sexton's contract renewal on Fitz's podcast... Surely they are entering a yearly renewal process?

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by mildlyinterested »

BOD being very vocal that Harry Byrne isn't playing enough for Leinster on OTB.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by hugonaut »

At the time of writing, he has played more minutes at outhalf for Leinster this season than anybody else.

Harry Byrne: 161 mins [2+1]
Ross Byrne: 136 mins [1+1]
Johnny Sexton: 24 mins [1+0]

Not sure what context O'Driscoll's statement was made in, of course.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

hugonaut wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 1:41 pm
At the time of writing, he has played more minutes at outhalf for Leinster this season than anybody else.

Harry Byrne: 161 mins [2+1]
Ross Byrne: 136 mins [1+1]
Johnny Sexton: 24 mins [1+0]

Not sure what context O'Driscoll's statement was made in, of course.
His hoop

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by hugonaut »

ronk wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 1:49 pm
hugonaut wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 1:41 pm
At the time of writing, he has played more minutes at outhalf for Leinster this season than anybody else.

Harry Byrne: 161 mins [2+1]
Ross Byrne: 136 mins [1+1]
Johnny Sexton: 24 mins [1+0]

Not sure what context O'Driscoll's statement was made in, of course.
His hoop
Yeah, I was being generous to Drico!

Seven league matches were cancelled last year. Harry played in two of our three pre-season games and 10 of our 15 regular season league games as a 20 year old. That's not bad going!

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Dexter »

ronk wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 1:49 pm
hugonaut wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 1:41 pm
At the time of writing, he has played more minutes at outhalf for Leinster this season than anybody else.

Harry Byrne: 161 mins [2+1]
Ross Byrne: 136 mins [1+1]
Johnny Sexton: 24 mins [1+0]

Not sure what context O'Driscoll's statement was made in, of course.
His hoop
As per usual. Wish he'd just shut it.
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ronk
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

There's a much bigger group of rugby watchers who dip in and out and could easily feel that Harry Byrne isn't getting a chance than who'd know that he is.

You'd expect BOD to be more of the latter but he was never really that involved in the overseas Pro14 trips and it seems that he wasn't that aware or interested either.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by backrower8 »

I took Drico to mean that Harry needs to start in the games that matter most, the Champions Cup.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by riocard911 »

backrower8 wrote:
November 4th, 2020, 1:48 am
I took Drico to mean that Harry needs to start in the games that matter most, the Champions Cup.
I did too.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Dexter »

riocard911 wrote:
November 4th, 2020, 9:29 am
backrower8 wrote:
November 4th, 2020, 1:48 am
I took Drico to mean that Harry needs to start in the games that matter most, the Champions Cup.
I did too.
Champions Cup games that haven't started yet? Still doesn't make sense at this point in time.
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Serb »

I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Harry Byrne is not ready to start Champions Cup games. The lad is 21, his time will come, next season probably, and off the bench. Sexton was two years older than Harry is now before he got his first start against Castres in 2008.

There’s a scenario however, probably likely, where Sexton is injured for one or more European games this season. Does Harry make the bench in that case or does Frawley?

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

But there's an unwritten law that you dont drop an international while he is away on international duty. Exceptions allowed for collapses in form.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by backrower8 »

Ireland (mainly in the context of RWC 2023) and Leinster are holding a losing hand in the context of Jinny’s career trajectory and have to roll the dice with Harry’s progression. Normal development rules do not apply. That means him coming off the bench in at least one of the Nations Cup games and also getting the bench slot for one or two of the Champions Cup pool games if we are in a strong enough position in the table.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by riocard911 »

backrower8 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 10:42 am
Ireland (mainly in the context of RWC 2023) and Leinster are holding a losing hand in the context of Jinny’s career trajectory and have to roll the dice with Harry’s progression. Normal development rules do not apply. That means him coming off the bench in at least one of the Nations Cup games and also getting the bench slot for one or two of the Champions Cup pool games if we are in a strong enough position in the table.
Not going to happen. Harry's not in the Nations Cup squad. Much as I would love him to be there, it is perhaps better if he gets a run of games in blue starting week in, week out to see how he handles the pressure.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by OTT »

As a Leinster fan I think we have an opportunity this season to win another Heineken Cup, it is not an easy competition to win it usually takes lots of little things to go your way like avoiding key injuries to certain players, bounces of a ball in tough away games falling for you, getting a sympathetic ref that enhances your dominance in a specific area or likewise a ref who diminishes the oppositions in an area they are dominant. Basically a lot of excellence and to be at the top of your game and a lot of luck thrown in on top. This is the competition Irish rugby fans live and breath. We fill up planes with thousands of travelling fans (in normal times) for away matches every Oct, December and January all over France, Britain or Italy. Our home games in this competition feel like test weeks for the 6 nations or World Cup. They are really important weeks to any Irish fan who has a tangible interest in Irish Provincial Rugby. Stadiums are full, there tends to be a whiff of cordite in the air :P (TM G&T). The winning finals are days I hold up as some of the best of my life. We saw only a few weeks ago an almost perfect season can end up as one where people question most of our squad because we came up short in this competition.

So the notion that these matches should be used to fast track lads for Ireland is absolutely bonkers to me. I don’t think it is what most people (fans) want either. Look at what happens when we (Provinces/Ireland) lose a game, we turn on most of the team yet somehow we are going to accept Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Connacht picking young guys who it is acknowledged are not at the level of the incumbent because we need to fast track them. God help them if we lose.

I’m very confident with our current coaching team at Leinster that they will pick the players that we need to pick to win us particular games, I am confident that they will pick the young guy who have earned the selection on merit, the squad guy who has put his hand up and earned the selection or the older guy who is nearing the end of his career but is still seen to be our best bet. I won’t always necessarily agree with all the selections eg I was surprised at the willingness to move away from Rob in Europe last season. I also thought Josh Murphy had probably done enough to be involved in a few more European games. Loads and loads of things the armchair fan that I am would do differently but at the end of it all I never question that the coaches are picking what they think is the best 23 to win us a big game just that it is different at times to mine.

Harry Byrne might get in the 23 for Europe he will have to be excellent to get ahead of his brother Ross who has been consistently the best 10 in the Pro14/16 (whatever it is this year) over the last 2 season for me or he might get the 10 jersey from Sexton which will mean he has worked his way ahead of the best 10 I think we have ever produced so again that will be a massive sign of the talent he has but it has to be done because he deserves it not because we are willing to sacrifice our season to get him to where he wants to be. I don’t think pundits selling papers or looking for a bigger listenership are best placed to make the case for Harry or any other young players they are the very first group who turn on teams and coaches after a defeat, I think it’s the coaches who see them every day whose careers are dependant on the success of the teams they coach so ultimately they will want to pick winning teams. If we lose another World Cup quarterfinal with Harry Byrne at 10 and throw away a few seasons of Leinster/Irish rugby to get him there will all the waffle merchants go ‘yeah but it was worth it’ will they f%~k?

This could be in any thread it isn’t really about Harry Byrne, Ross Byrne or Sexton. Milne should be ahead of Healy, Baird should automatically be ahead of Toner, O’Sullivan should be ahead of McGrath, TOB should be ahead of Dave Kearney exec etc we can say it about any position. I flipping love getting the young lads through the system and into the side but I love it because they have earned it and it has made us a better team over the last couple of years not because we decided Leinster's hopes and dreams don’t actually matter, I really can’t see to many people being on board with that if results start going against us, we have become so greedy that we expect to win Europe most years.

Anyway long live the Leinster conveyor belt I’m delighted with how it gives players young and old the chance to stake their claim
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by backrower8 »

OTT wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 3:32 pm
As a Leinster fan I think we have an opportunity this season to win another Heineken Cup, it is not an easy competition to win it usually takes lots of little things to go your way like avoiding key injuries to certain players, bounces of a ball in tough away games falling for you, getting a sympathetic ref that enhances your dominance in a specific area or likewise a ref who diminishes the oppositions in an area they are dominant. Basically a lot of excellence and to be at the top of your game and a lot of luck thrown in on top. This is the competition Irish rugby fans live and breath. We fill up planes with thousands of travelling fans (in normal times) for away matches every Oct, December and January all over France, Britain or Italy. Our home games in this competition feel like test weeks for the 6 nations or World Cup. They are really important weeks to any Irish fan who has a tangible interest in Irish Provincial Rugby. Stadiums are full, there tends to be a whiff of cordite in the air :P (TM G&T). The winning finals are days I hold up as some of the best of my life. We saw only a few weeks ago an almost perfect season can end up as one where people question most of our squad because we came up short in this competition.

So the notion that these matches should be used to fast track lads for Ireland is absolutely bonkers to me. I don’t think it is what most people (fans) want either. Look at what happens when we (Provinces/Ireland) lose a game, we turn on most of the team yet somehow we are going to accept Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Connacht picking young guys who it is acknowledged are not at the level of the incumbent because we need to fast track them. God help them if we lose.

I’m very confident with our current coaching team at Leinster that they will pick the players that we need to pick to win us particular games, I am confident that they will pick the young guy who have earned the selection on merit, the squad guy who has put his hand up and earned the selection or the older guy who is nearing the end of his career but is still seen to be our best bet. I won’t always necessarily agree with all the selections eg I was surprised at the willingness to move away from Rob in Europe last season. I also thought Josh Murphy had probably done enough to be involved in a few more European games. Loads and loads of things the armchair fan that I am would do differently but at the end of it all I never question that the coaches are picking what they think is the best 23 to win us a big game just that it is different at times to mine.

Harry Byrne might get in the 23 for Europe he will have to be excellent to get ahead of his brother Ross who has been consistently the best 10 in the Pro14/16 (whatever it is this year) over the last 2 season for me or he might get the 10 jersey from Sexton which will mean he has worked his way ahead of the best 10 I think we have ever produced so again that will be a massive sign of the talent he has but it has to be done because he deserves it not because we are willing to sacrifice our season to get him to where he wants to be. I don’t think pundits selling papers or looking for a bigger listenership are best placed to make the case for Harry or any other young players they are the very first group who turn on teams and coaches after a defeat, I think it’s the coaches who see them every day whose careers are dependant on the success of the teams they coach so ultimately they will want to pick winning teams. If we lose another World Cup quarterfinal with Harry Byrne at 10 and throw away a few seasons of Leinster/Irish rugby to get him there will all the waffle merchants go ‘yeah but it was worth it’ will they f%~k!

This could be in any thread it isn’t really about Harry Byrne, Ross Byrne or Sexton. Milne should be ahead of Healy, Baird should automatically be ahead of Toner, O’Sullivan should be ahead of McGrath, TOB should be ahead of Dave Kearney exec etc we can say it about any position. I flipping love getting the young lads through the system and into the side but I love it because they have earned it and it has made us a better team over the last couple of years not because we decided Leinster's hopes and dreams don’t actually matter, I really can’t see to many people being on board with that if results start going against us, we have become so greedy that we expect to win Europe most years.

Anyway long live the Leinster conveyor belt I’m delighted with how it gives players young and old the chance to stake their claim
So do I take it you don’t agree with me?

I didn’t and don’t advocate throwing any young lad in over established internationals who are still number one in their positions, as Johnny is his. I do advocate needing to fast track players specifically in the 1 and 10 positions at Leinster especially as it is obvious that the incumbents don’t have two seasons in them.

Multiplying that our to every player in our squad over 30 is NOT what I said.

The decision has already been made at Ireland level to swop Porter over to address the deficit at LH. We need to be bolder as regards HB’s development, but not reckless, which is why I suggested what I did and not the version you depicted.

Waiting for Jonny to wind down when he is good and ready and for Ross to morph into a world-class out-half, which is what we need in Blue and Green, is not serving Leinster or Ireland’s best interests.

Ireland’s need is greater, which is why minutes should be found for Harry in the Champions Cup and in the Nations (regardless of the fitness of Jonny or Ross).

This blind allegiance is akin to Stockholm syndrome. Joe is the greatest coach I have seen in Irish and Leinster rugby, but he was off course for a while before we crashed. Jonny, the best 10 we have ever had in any era, has been off for a while too but is still number 1. But déférence to him must not stifle his succession. We have to roll the dice, give more and more game time to others once they are on form.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

Harry Byrne just played 80 minutes in a bonus point win in Glasgow. And that was a strong Glasgow side. As noted, he has done more minutes already for Leinster this season than any other out half.

He will be picked for 4 out of 4 of the next games unless we rest him/injury.

Putting him into the Ireland squad and giving him a cap looks like progress but it actually gives him a lot less game time at the wrong level for his learning curve. He's still at the stage where Pro14 time is really valuable and the more of it the better.

The best place for him right now is getting max game time and responsibility with Leinster. The best thing for Leinster is to have him. The best thing for long term Ireland is to do whatever is best to develop him, I.e. play for Leinster. The best thing for short term Ireland is to get a big audience and get over the France loss as quick as we can.


Heineken Cup is shortened but Harry is in line for action if there is injury for either Ross or Sexton. He's set up really well right now.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Ruckedtobits »

OTT wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 3:32 pm
As a Leinster fan I think we have an opportunity this season to win another Heineken Cup, it is not an easy competition to win it usually takes lots of little things to go your way like avoiding key injuries to certain players, bounces of a ball in tough away games falling for you, getting a sympathetic ref that enhances your dominance in a specific area or likewise a ref who diminishes the oppositions in an area they are dominant. Basically a lot of excellence and to be at the top of your game and a lot of luck thrown in on top. This is the competition Irish rugby fans live and breath. We fill up planes with thousands of travelling fans (in normal times) for away matches every Oct, December and January all over France, Britain or Italy. Our home games in this competition feel like test weeks for the 6 nations or World Cup. They are really important weeks to any Irish fan who has a tangible interest in Irish Provincial Rugby. Stadiums are full, there tends to be a whiff of cordite in the air :P (TM G&T). The winning finals are days I hold up as some of the best of my life. We saw only a few weeks ago an almost perfect season can end up as one where people question most of our squad because we came up short in this competition.

So the notion that these matches should be used to fast track lads for Ireland is absolutely bonkers to me. I don’t think it is what most people (fans) want either. Look at what happens when we (Provinces/Ireland) lose a game, we turn on most of the team yet somehow we are going to accept Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Connacht picking young guys who it is acknowledged are not at the level of the incumbent because we need to fast track them. God help them if we lose.

I’m very confident with our current coaching team at Leinster that they will pick the players that we need to pick to win us particular games, I am confident that they will pick the young guy who have earned the selection on merit, the squad guy who has put his hand up and earned the selection or the older guy who is nearing the end of his career but is still seen to be our best bet. I won’t always necessarily agree with all the selections eg I was surprised at the willingness to move away from Rob in Europe last season. I also thought Josh Murphy had probably done enough to be involved in a few more European games. Loads and loads of things the armchair fan that I am would do differently but at the end of it all I never question that the coaches are picking what they think is the best 23 to win us a big game just that it is different at times to mine.

Harry Byrne might get in the 23 for Europe he will have to be excellent to get ahead of his brother Ross who has been consistently the best 10 in the Pro14/16 (whatever it is this year) over the last 2 season for me or he might get the 10 jersey from Sexton which will mean he has worked his way ahead of the best 10 I think we have ever produced so again that will be a massive sign of the talent he has but it has to be done because he deserves it not because we are willing to sacrifice our season to get him to where he wants to be. I don’t think pundits selling papers or looking for a bigger listenership are best placed to make the case for Harry or any other young players they are the very first group who turn on teams and coaches after a defeat, I think it’s the coaches who see them every day whose careers are dependant on the success of the teams they coach so ultimately they will want to pick winning teams. If we lose another World Cup quarterfinal with Harry Byrne at 10 and throw away a few seasons of Leinster/Irish rugby to get him there will all the waffle merchants go ‘yeah but it was worth it’ will they f%~k!

This could be in any thread it isn’t really about Harry Byrne, Ross Byrne or Sexton. Milne should be ahead of Healy, Baird should automatically be ahead of Toner, O’Sullivan should be ahead of McGrath, TOB should be ahead of Dave Kearney exec etc we can say it about any position. I flipping love getting the young lads through the system and into the side but I love it because they have earned it and it has made us a better team over the last couple of years not because we decided Leinster's hopes and dreams don’t actually matter, I really can’t see to many people being on board with that if results start going against us, we have become so greedy that we expect to win Europe most years.

Anyway long live the Leinster conveyor belt I’m delighted with how it gives players young and old the chance to stake their claim
+1
...and well written with passion and logic balancing each other.

OTT
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by OTT »

backrower8 wrote:
November 5th, 2020, 7:24 pm

So do I take it you don’t agree with me?

I didn’t and don’t advocate throwing any young lad in over established internationals who are still number one in their positions, as Johnny is his. I do advocate needing to fast track players specifically in the 1 and 10 positions at Leinster especially as it is obvious that the incumbents don’t have two seasons in them.

Multiplying that our to every player in our squad over 30 is NOT what I said.

The decision has already been made at Ireland level to swop Porter over to address the deficit at LH. We need to be bolder as regards HB’s development, but not reckless, which is why I suggested what I did and not the version you depicted.

Waiting for Jonny to wind down when he is good and ready and for Ross to morph into a world-class out-half, which is what we need in Blue and Green, is not serving Leinster or Ireland’s best interests.

Ireland’s need is greater, which is why minutes should be found for Harry in the Champions Cup and in the Nations (regardless of the fitness of Jonny or Ross).

This blind allegiance is akin to Stockholm syndrome. Joe is the greatest coach I have seen in Irish and Leinster rugby, but he was off course for a while before we crashed. Jonny, the best 10 we have ever had in any era, has been off for a while too but is still number 1. But déférence to him must not stifle his succession. We have to roll the dice, give more and more game time to others once they are on form.
It is not about agreeing or disagreeing with you, we both want different things. I want Leinster to do whatever they have to do to win the Heineken Cup this season or to get as close as possible to that goal that we can get to. If that means the coaches think Harry Byrne is the man to do that I support that. If they go with Ross Byrne, I support that. If they pick Sexton, I support that. If they change from match to match for whatever player they think can bring the most to a particular match I will also support that. What I don’t want is anyone picked on reputation or because we are being made use the Cup as a development tournament for players to gain experience for a different competition with a different team in a few years time but as I said already I don’t believe that is how the Leinster setup pick teams.

You are entitled to put an emphasis on the World Cup, my emphasis is on the next Heineken Cup for Leinster and the next 6 nations for Ireland. We clearly have different goals in mind.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"

~The Late Great Mick English

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