Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

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Blue Man
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Blue Man »

Peg Leg wrote:
February 19th, 2021, 10:15 am
hugonaut wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
If I was advising Frawley, I'd tell him he should concentrate on No12. The Harry Byrne/Frawley midfield looks extremely potent to me – a real blueprint for how Leinster can move forward. Two players at the midfield knuckle who can pass, kick, run and make decisions with real skill. I also don't think that Frawley is as good an outhalf as Harry Byrne and, conversely, there's no evidence that Harry can play No12 to the same level as Frawley. I think they complement each other very well though.

If you pick Frawley at No12, there's a bit of a trade off in physicality. It seems to me that some commentators are terrified of that. You aren't going to get the same amount of gainline from Frawley in traffic as you get from, for example, Aki or McCloskey. But Aki can't pass and can't kick [speaking in absolutes here, for the sake of clarity], and those limitations are far more telling to the operation of a backline attack than somebody who can't do crash balls like it's the mid-90s.

To be successful at test level, I'd argue that you have a greater chance of scoring tries by unpicking the lock [so to speak] rather than trying to bash down the door. Everyone at international level is a willing tackler.

It always surprises me that the same journalists who wrote [especially in Schmidt's last year] about Ireland needing 'a second distributor' in the backline didn't follow the logical path to the realisation that you can play two players who have 'outhalf' skillsets in the same midfield. You can play Harry Byrne and Frawley together. It doesn't have to be either/or.

It seems to me that those journalists were so cautious about the potential of Ireland being found wanting defensively that, despite writing or talking about how we should be more adventurous, or allow players to make more decisions on the pitch, they subconsciously were really worried about what happens if you actually do pick a combination like that. And other journalists or media commentators were more concerned with the fact that Aki was qualified by residency than by the fact that he's a No12 who basically cannot kick the ball at all - place kick, drop goal, clearance, bomb, chip, grubber ... anything.

The Queensland Maroons shoe-horned about four ball-players into a thirteen man team for a decade of State of Origin. I think they are a great example, both in terms of individual players and as a team. Their ball-players like Thurston, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater etc. had to become really tough cookies, because it's an unforgiving code ... but their coaches had the courage to put them all in the team together, rather than leaving one out for a 'bigger body' or a better athlete.
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+1

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ronk
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by ronk »

International centre is a bust at the moment. Too many players fighting for only a few positions. And a few others on the outside looking in too. There’s no point in trying to please Farrell/Catt.

Frawley offers something different in terms of both style of play and versatility. If he can do what he’s good at and concentrate on being an important player for Leinster for a few years then the situation could be very different. Only Aki prefers 12 out of all the options and he’s 31 soon.

If we assume Henshaw and Ringrose make a Lions tour (& that it goes ahead), Frawley is in line for a lot of provincial game time forming a partnership with HB.

With a more solid portfolio Frawley then represents the only player in Ireland who can play the Mike Catt role and can help with creative attack: something we know is a weakness and will get worse when Sexton slows. A creative 12 can help Sexton when he slows or take pressure off a young outhalf, but Frawley isn’t that experienced yet.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Oldschool »

ronk wrote:
February 20th, 2021, 1:48 pm
International centre is a bust at the moment. Too many players fighting for only a few positions. And a few others on the outside looking in too. There’s no point in trying to please Farrell/Catt.

Frawley offers something different in terms of both style of play and versatility. If he can do what he’s good at and concentrate on being an important player for Leinster for a few years then the situation could be very different. Only Aki prefers 12 out of all the options and he’s 31 soon.

If we assume Henshaw and Ringrose make a Lions tour (& that it goes ahead), Frawley is in line for a lot of provincial game time forming a partnership with HB.

With a more solid portfolio Frawley then represents the only player in Ireland who can play the Mike Catt role and can help with creative attack: something we know is a weakness and will get worse when Sexton slows. A creative 12 can help Sexton when he slows or take pressure off a young outhalf, but Frawley isn’t that experienced yet.
I'll bite.
"When Sexton slows" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Fan with smartphone »

I guess this all comes down to philosophy of how you feel the game is best, or should, be played. I have memories when I first watched rugby of Maurice Field coming into an Irish backline and hitting anything that moved, didn’t really matter if he was attacking or defending! But that allowed others to concentrate on playing the ball. So, hands up, I have an unconscious (or now conscious) bias towards a backline where the main skillset of each position is... 10. Creator - be that boot or hand, 12. Abrasive. 13 part stepper part playmaker, 15. Bit of everything, 11,14. Speed.

But that’s clearly not the only way to play, although it’s a skilful coach who can change their system to suit the players, rather than make the players suit the coach’s system. You are seeing this in the nfl where teams are trying to pair coaches to a system that suits their players and particularly quarterback. Harbaugh with a running quarterback. Stefanski specialising in play action.

In my mind, your best bet is to pick a team that is going to be able to find a solution to whatever problem gets thrown up at you and also that can stress a defence in different ways. So in terms of backplay - Hugo’s solution is to pick the lock, and commit to that and get really good at that. Now, my counter argument is what’s sometimes needed is to kick the door down, or at least the threat of it. The 12 in this case doesn’t need to be creative himself, but the play design and players around him probably do. I’d really defend Aki for Ireland. I think his play has dropped a little for Connacht since he became Ireland qualified, but part of that is he is trying to peak for internationals. Aki outside Ross Byrne potentially works for me. It means teams have to respect the gainline and come narrow. If they don’t: here’s the ball Bundee. If they do get narrow : that opens up good passing to a playmaker at 15, or even a kick pass of some sort, or wraparound or whatever. All very much within Byrne’s skillset. Being a gainline threat himself...that isn’t his skillset, as yet anyway. It may be more a part of Harry Byrne’s game, so the idea of Frawley outside him is enticing, no doubt about it.

I do like Frawley as a 10 because I look at him and think physically he can do this right now and he has the skillset to do a bit of everything (like a fullback too and I understand why some posters want that). But my thinking is probably too reactionary and petulant/impatient. And i entirely hold my hands up and say it’s totally internationally driven. Like a lot of supporters I’m probably comparing anyone playing the position (including Sexton himself) to Johnny sexton 2018. And that’s not fair - he was physically on point, he had a 12 that did the gainline and he had a creative play design too. As Ronk and Hugo spell out - there is probably a longer term prize here. And I can very easily see Frawley playing 22 and coming on to play 12 like how LRIP describes.

It’s a very tough balance isn’t it? Patience needed but you do feel like these lads’ time to take it on is now. But then...look at olding and Marshall who possibly were overused too soon and especially at 12. Both battled injury. Frawley and the Byrnes among others are getting good grounding and development and feet presumably are on the ground. That’s the prize and bigger picture ronk is on about - within the next year or 2 you have a few players who are mature, physically ready and have the skillset to allow you to play different ways at an international level.

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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by erskinechilders »

Who are the outhalves fighting in the sub academy looking to get an academy contract? I've heard a few names but don't know much about them, could anyone fill me in? I know there are Tim Corkey, Charlie Tector, Fionn O'Hara.. am I missing anyone else and who is the most likely to get a contract?

mildlyinterested
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by mildlyinterested »

Fionn O'Hara is still in school, so can't see him joining academy straight from there, given lack of rugby being played.

Corkery(U20/Kilkenny RFC/UCD) and Tector(U19/Kilkenny College/Lansdowne) are in the sub academy at the moment... Corkery was pictured training with seniors yesterday and has played for Leinster A this season so he looks to be ahead of Tector at the moment but Tector may have greater long term potential, difficult to know. Corkery has experience of playing 12 too btw.

Other notable u20 outhalves: Harry Colbert(Gonzaga/DUFC), Justin Leonard(Belvedere/Old Belvedere)

Spiral92
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Re: Sexton's last season? Outhalf going forward..

Post by Spiral92 »

mildlyinterested wrote:
February 24th, 2021, 10:20 am
Fionn O'Hara is still in school, so can't see him joining academy straight from there, given lack of rugby being played.

Corkery(U20/Kilkenny RFC/UCD) and Tector(U19/Kilkenny College/Lansdowne) are in the sub academy at the moment... Corkery was pictured training with seniors yesterday and has played for Leinster A this season so he looks to be ahead of Tector at the moment but Tector may have greater long term potential, difficult to know. Corkery has experience of playing 12 too btw.

Other notable u20 outhalves: Harry Colbert(Gonzaga/DUFC), Justin Leonard(Belvedere/Old Belvedere)
Colbert and Leonard looked good for their respective teams in the small amount of rugby that was played pre lockdown, didn’t see much of the other 2 playing

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