Scrumhalf going forward

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Blue Man
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by Blue Man »

mildlyinterested wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 6:07 pm
Hughie needs to play 9 a lot to develop... he isn't getting that at Leinster, I doubt he will move on but something has got to give.

I assume one of Patterson/Osborne may move on.. Patterson has higher upside but obviously hasn't gotten much of a chance lately and looks more likely to be released.

I rate Gilsenan too.. but I'm not going to hold my breath on him getting an academy contract, something doesn't seem to be right there... Reilly being with the 20's was notable but given the strength of the 9 position and the doubt around the u20 six nations, i'm not sure he will get a chance to earn an academy contract there..

they need to be identifying someone to invest game time in anyway..
O’Sullivan, Patterson and Osborne are all way short of the required standard. I haven’t seen Gilsenan but really hope he’s good as there is a lack of depth. Indeed, for me, neither Luke nor JGP are international class.

mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

all young scrumhalves need to develop there decision making, some more than others.. the lack of quality game time at AIL and Pro 14 level certainly hasn't helped the current young scrumhalves at leinster.. certainly not aided by the fact that HOS, Patterson and Foley all played positions other than nine in school, Foley even playing 12 for the irish 20's at times.

Blue Man
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by Blue Man »

mildlyinterested wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 7:38 pm
all young scrumhalves need to develop there decision making, some more than others.. the lack of quality game time at AIL and Pro 14 level certainly hasn't helped the current young scrumhalves at leinster.. certainly not aided by the fact that HOS, Patterson and Foley all played positions other than nine in school, Foley even playing 12 for the irish 20's at times.

Converting to one of the most specialist positions in the team is very difficult. Hopefully the top talent is being identified at JCT/ U15s and receiving the appropriate coaching and direction. The Scots and Welsh comfortably produce more quality 9s than us

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

players are identified at JCT and above.. some are converted to 9 from different positions at this age or later..

HOS played 9 at JCT level, before playing 15 at SCT level.
Patterson played 9 at JCT and a mix of wing and 9 at SCT level

Foley played 9 and 12 at JCT level, and as a 4th/5th year play 9 and 12 in his final season for Gerards

They all played/trained 9 for leinster underage teams..

All three haven't played much AIL rugby which has been an issue IMO.

backrower8
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by backrower8 »

hugonaut wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 5:52 pm

I've said it before, I'd like to see Gilsenan get an opportunity with Leinster. From what I've seen of him, he's different in most respects than the guys that Leinster have been bringing into the Academy in recent years.
+1 He was in our mini-rugby group where he was always a baller and I was hugely impressed when I saw how he developed in his final school years. His physique is completely different to any other 9 contracted at any level in Leinster.

Did James Kenny (Gonzaga / Lanssowne/ 22) disappear completely. Another in the Murray (even Terry Holmes) mould physique-wise

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

backrower8 wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 9:40 pm
hugonaut wrote:
January 10th, 2021, 5:52 pm

I've said it before, I'd like to see Gilsenan get an opportunity with Leinster. From what I've seen of him, he's different in most respects than the guys that Leinster have been bringing into the Academy in recent years.
+1 He was in our mini-rugby group where he was always a baller and I was hugely impressed when I saw how he developed in his final school years. His physique is completely different to any other 9 contracted at any level in Leinster.

Did James Kenny (Gonzaga / Lanssowne/ 22) disappear completely. Another in the Murray (even Terry Holmes) mould physique-wise

Kenny was starting for Lansdowne this season before it was called a halt.

backrower8
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by backrower8 »

It looks like Nick McCarthy (26 in March) is marginally better off in Munster than Leinster as #3 to Murray (32 in April). It is unlikey that anyone else is going to be bought in over his head. He would comfortably be #3 in Leinster in my view. Has a better pass than the two leading protagonists, which wouldn't be hard.

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ronk
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by ronk »

He has one start against Zebre this season. That’s one more than HOS but it’s not much return.

He went from a 3rd choice who was trusted, growing and worthy of extra opportunities to a distant 3rd who looks like he has a lower ceiling with less confidence. He’ll muddle through for a while and maybe things will turn around for him if he gets a run of games.

Scrumhalves are on the ball so much and under such pressure that sharpness is even more critical.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

backrower8 wrote:
January 11th, 2021, 6:12 pm
It looks like Nick McCarthy (26 in March) is marginally better off in Munster than Leinster as #3 to Murray (32 in April). It is unlikey that anyone else is going to be bought in over his head. He would comfortably be #3 in Leinster in my view. Has a better pass than the two leading protagonists, which wouldn't be hard.
McCarthy would be much better off at Leinster IMO.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

So Ben Murphy didn't get a contract offer after his 7 weeks with Munster, now Paddy Patterson is down there on loan, trying to earn a contract because presumably he isn't getting one from Leinster.

No sign of a u20 scrumhalf playing for Leinster A unfortunately so doesn't look great for Rob Gilsenan or Will Reilly being highly rated by academy coaches. Lack of game time surely can't help these players push for academy places.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Nick McCarthy is set to leave Munster and re-join his native Leinster ahead of next season.

https://www.the42.ie/nick-mccarthy-lein ... 8-Jan2021/

Wonder what that means for Hughie, who looked decent off the bench last night.

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curates_egg
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by curates_egg »

What an odd move by both parties but particularly McCarthy.
McCarthy wasted two years of his career by joining Munster. But rejoining Leinster to fight to become the third choice scrum half is weird. Why not go somewhere, anywhere, else?
Maybe he looked at Conway, who wasted about four years on his bad decision to join Munster (before it came good) and thought: I'd rather be at home.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

think it's clear why Leinster made the move.

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ronk
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by ronk »

Oddly enough I thought McCarthy was hitting form again and was influential.

Casey in the national squad gives him a chance to build form.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

going to watch the munster benetton game now for my sins to see how he played.

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curates_egg
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by curates_egg »

He's being lauded for his pass to Hanrahan for the dropgoal.
It's been two years but I seem to remember him having the best pass of the three 9s.

...without wanting to reopen the periodical scrumhalf passing debate on here.

erskinechilders
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by erskinechilders »

Anyone else see a massive improvement in Luke McGrath's form in the last few months? I wonder if Schmidt leaving the Ireland job has had anything to do with it? Schmidt clearly wants a SH that controls the game, with good game management and an excellent box kick ( ie, Conor Murray ). To be fair to McGrath these are not his biggest strengths. His game is much more about being lively around the ruck, committing the pillars and getting his forwards running on to the ball and running excellent support lines. I feel he's almost been liberated since the World Cup as he has gone back to playing his natural game instead of trying to impress Schmidt all the time.

Delighted for him after his last 2 performances especially.
Top

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Yeah he's been much better, I think someone, maybe Hugo, said Luke should stop trying to be Reddan and be Isaac Boss.. he seems to have taken on that advice and looks the better for it.

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hugonaut
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by hugonaut »

curates_egg wrote:
February 1st, 2021, 8:05 am
What an odd move by both parties but particularly McCarthy.
McCarthy wasted two years of his career by joining Munster. But rejoining Leinster to fight to become the third choice scrum half is weird. Why not go somewhere, anywhere, else?
Maybe he looked at Conway, who wasted about four years on his bad decision to join Munster (before it came good) and thought: I'd rather be at home.
I think it's a good move for Leinster. We'll be replacing two players [or possibly three] with one player. This would make economic sense for any position, but especially a specialist position with a dedicated spot on the bench. You don't have to split the minimal gametime you get off the bench between two people, and you don't have to pay two salaries for a role that only takes one person.

In my judgment, McCarthy is better than any of the following four scrumhalves we have on the books – Osbourn, O'Sullivan, Patterson or Foley. His age profile is good, his age-grade pedigree is outstanding and he's well known to the coaching staff and his team-mates. He doesn't have a lot of mileage and he's not going to command a big salary. It's a good fit.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Scrumhalf going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Given the lack of rugby being played it's hard to call where they will go with scrumhalf in the academy..

Rob Gilsenan(U20/St.Michaels/UCD) has a lot of talent but hasn't played much rugby in past 18 months. He was in the sub-academy earlier in the season but unsure now. Ben Murphy(U20/Pres/Old Wesley) was on "loan" to Munster earlier in the season but that ended at Christmas, not sure if he is back involved with leinster and Will Reilly(U20/Portlaoise/MU Barnhall) who was in the extended irish u20 squad at Christmas.

Will any of them earn an academy contract? Difficult to do so with no rugby played.

There are several good prospects in schools rugby, but translating that to a higher level has been difficult to say the least and given they haven't played much recently none will be joining the academy straight from school.. Michael Moloney(U19/Blackrock), Conor Duggan(U19/Castleknock), Oisin Devitt(U19/Clongowes). Devitt was probably the best nine playing schools rugby last season fwiw, but all three were due to be irish u18 internationals.

Younger than that again, Fintan Gunne(u18/Michaels), Culann Carbery(U18/Athy RFC) and Tadhg Brophy(U18/Newbridge) are ones to watch.

tl, dr version: plenty of prospects, no one who looks like a certain future star.

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