2nd Row going forward

[leinsterforever]

True, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.

Joe Tekori comes to mind. Alun Wyn Jones barely scrapes 6'6" on a good day

Yeah.

I thought of Romain Millo-Chluski after I posted.

[ronk]

Should mention the 6ft 5 Mike McCarthy.

[hugonaut]

Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully

Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.

there isn't many top level locks who are that "short", he may get away with it but it would be better if he was taller with the same build/weight.

there's a premium on height and bulk at TH lock, just look at the proposed signing of Jenkins. And McCarthy just doesnt have that size unfortunately.

True, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.

Alun Wyn Jones [link: https://www.wru.wales/player/alun-wyn-jones/ ], the most-capped player of all time.

Romain Millo-Chluski [link: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/roma ... i-295.html ], Lionel Nallet [link: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/lion ... et-51.html ], Rodrigo Capo Ortega [link: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/capo ... o-446.html ] were around 195-197cm, and they had massive careers ... all of them played the guts of 400 pro games between club/s and country.

Donncha O'Callaghan was stretching plausibility when he put himself down at 198cm/6'6" [Paul O'Connell made a joke about it in the recent enough past, and he was listed at 196cm when he played for Worcester - link: https://warriors.co.uk/teams/donncha-ocallaghan/] and he played well over 400 pro games, including almost 100 test matches.

Big Joe is 119kg as a 20 year old. The shortest I've ever seen him listed at was 197cm, most of the time he's listed at 198cm. He's got a bit of a stroppy streak in him. I'd be pretty confident about him.

[mildlyinterested]

If Joe McCarthy was closer to 200cm than 195cm he'd be a big time prospect, but he is short for a modern lock and it may count against him at he progresses to higher levels.

Dunne/Ryan need to play games and develop thats not going to happen at leinster. Better off getting away.

Spicer is huge physcially.. but he doesnt even start for a bad Belvedere team. So not going to get my hopes up there either, still hopefully leinster invest in developing him.

Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully

Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.

Good points. I can see both sides of the argument. looking at it from a positive point of view, for the average player the extra inches makes a difference but some players are above average in ability. Itoje isn't the biggest, neither is Beirne or Franco Mostert but they make an impact. There are plenty of 6'7 and taller players who are plodders.


McCarthy is 120kg apparently and from the little I saw of him he looks powerful. If the lineout is a weak point then it will depend on other players but being tall doesn't necessarily mean you're good in the lineout. POM is much better in the lineout than Kleyn. Different positions but that's kind of my point.

McCarthy isnt the athletic shorter lock like Beirne/Itoje/Mostert, he isn't going to play blindside. He is a TH lock so ideally he'd be a bit taller, if he can carry 120kg+ at his height and remain athletic, he will have a good pro career, but he might just be a few inches off being a top level international. As I said, he looks small next to his fellow academy 2nd rows when playing for Leinster A.

[mildlyinterested]

there isn't many top level locks who are that "short", he may get away with it but it would be better if he was taller with the same build/weight.

there's a premium on height and bulk at TH lock, just look at the proposed signing of Jenkins. And McCarthy just doesnt have that size unfortunately.

True, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.

Alun Wyn Jones [link: https://www.wru.wales/player/alun-wyn-jones/ ], the most-capped player of all time.

Romain Millo-Chluski [link: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/roma ... i-295.html ], Lionel Nallet [link: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/lion ... et-51.html ], Rodrigo Capo Ortega [link: https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/capo ... o-446.html ] were around 195-197cm, and they had massive careers ... all of them played the guts of 400 pro games between club/s and country.

Donncha O'Callaghan was stretching plausibility when he put himself down at 198cm/6'6" [Paul O'Connell made a joke about it in the recent enough past, and he was listed at 196cm when he played for Worcester - link: https://warriors.co.uk/teams/donncha-ocallaghan/] and he played well over 400 pro games, including almost 100 test matches.

Big Joe is 119kg as a 20 year old. The shortest I've ever seen him listed at was 197cm, most of the time he's listed at 198cm. He's got a bit of a stroppy streak in him. I'd be pretty confident about him.

Those officially listed heights are bullshit, he is closer to 195cm than 198cm. He is shorter than Alex Soroka who is listed at 195cm. But again listed heights are worthless.



This picture probably overstates how short he is but it underlines that he is not a huge lock, he is on the far right:



But as I said his height wont prevent him from having a pro career, it just might be a barrier to him being a top level international, he remains a good prospect, all I was saying was that if he was taller he'd be better prospect.

[Oldschool]

Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully

Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.

there isn't many top level locks who are that "short", he may get away with it but it would be better if he was taller with the same build/weight.

there's a premium on height and bulk at TH lock, just look at the proposed signing of Jenkins. And McCarthy just doesnt have that size unfortunately.

True, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.

George Kruis 6'6" and Joe Launchbury 6'5" both over 120kg of pure raw power.
Probably still good enough to play international level and stating the obvious but they both did very well for England.
England nearly always manage to have or select a number crunching SR.

[Dave Cahill]

“I can see how it would make sense for certain people’s minds,” said Cullen. “I know that Johann (Van Graan) talks very, very highly of him. He is a big man. You see in some of the big games, South Africa winning the World Cup and that Lions series, the emphasis particularly around the scrum and maul…..we don’t bring a huge amount of guys in from outside as you would be well aware. Mike Ala’alatoa is our only foreign player.

“Mike has had an unbelievable impact on us and sometimes a bit of experience from the outside is good for the group. You can see the quality he brings.

“We will comment further (on the Jenkins situation) if there is anything official to be announced.”

[paddyor]

“I can see how it would make sense for certain people’s minds,” said Cullen. “I know that Johann (Van Graan) talks very, very highly of him. He is a big man. You see in some of the big games, South Africa winning the World Cup and that Lions series, the emphasis particularly around the scrum and maul…..we don’t bring a huge amount of guys in from outside as you would be well aware. Mike Ala’alatoa is our only foreign player.

“Mike has had an unbelievable impact on us and sometimes a bit of experience from the outside is good for the group. You can see the quality he brings.

“We will comment further (on the Jenkins situation) if there is anything official to be announced.”

So not actually a done deal then?

[Dave Cahill]

“I can see how it would make sense for certain people’s minds,” said Cullen. “I know that Johann (Van Graan) talks very, very highly of him. He is a big man. You see in some of the big games, South Africa winning the World Cup and that Lions series, the emphasis particularly around the scrum and maul…..we don’t bring a huge amount of guys in from outside as you would be well aware. Mike Ala’alatoa is our only foreign player.

“Mike has had an unbelievable impact on us and sometimes a bit of experience from the outside is good for the group. You can see the quality he brings.

“We will comment further (on the Jenkins situation) if there is anything official to be announced.”

So not actually a done deal then?

I'd say that a careful reading of Leo's remarks yields no information whatsoever! Its another classic example of him being able to fill a couple of minutes of tape with absolutely no content whatsoever. Jenkins could have already moved into Leo's spare room or bought a two bed in Harajuku for all you'd find out from that interview!

[mildlyinterested]

“I can see how it would make sense for certain people’s minds,” said Cullen. “I know that Johann (Van Graan) talks very, very highly of him. He is a big man. You see in some of the big games, South Africa winning the World Cup and that Lions series, the emphasis particularly around the scrum and maul…..we don’t bring a huge amount of guys in from outside as you would be well aware. Mike Ala’alatoa is our only foreign player.

“Mike has had an unbelievable impact on us and sometimes a bit of experience from the outside is good for the group. You can see the quality he brings.

“We will comment further (on the Jenkins situation) if there is anything official to be announced.”

So not actually a done deal then?

its done.

[ronk]

I'd say that a careful reading of Leo's remarks yields no information whatsoever! Its another classic example of him being able to fill a couple of minutes of tape with absolutely no content whatsoever. Jenkins could have already moved into Leo's spare room or bought a two bed in Harajuku for all you'd find out from that interview!

It's quietly brilliant, he confirms nothing, denies nothing. Makes positive comments about the player in a non- committal way. He uses it as an opportunity to sell Leinster's recruitment policy to the rugby watching public and diffuse concerns about signing him while saving face in case it doesn't happen.

He gets in something positive about another player that will be appreciated and he does it all giving the journalist copy but not a headline that takes attention away from the game.

[blockhead]

I'd say that a careful reading of Leo's remarks yields no information whatsoever! Its another classic example of him being able to fill a couple of minutes of tape with absolutely no content whatsoever. Jenkins could have already moved into Leo's spare room or bought a two bed in Harajuku for all you'd find out from that interview!

It's quietly brilliant, he confirms nothing, denies nothing. Makes positive comments about the player in a non- committal way. He uses it as an opportunity to sell Leinster's recruitment policy to the rugby watching public and diffuse concerns about signing him while saving face in case it doesn't happen.

He gets in something positive about another player that will be appreciated and he does it all giving the journalist copy but not a headline that takes attention away from the game.

Re Etzebeth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA

[Blue Man]

Charlie Ryan, Dunne and Dowling were all young talented locks in the Leinster system. It would be a shame if none progressed the the full squad. Connacht doing well to get Thornbury, Dowling and Prendergast; I would much rather Leinster resigned Thornbury than brought in Jenkins

[neiliog93]

Itoje is usually listed as 6'5" but that seems quite optimistic for him.

I think it's fair to say that if you're under 6'6" as a lock it is an obvious disadvantage, but you can compensate with exceptional athleticism/physicality. Most guys don't have that exceptional athleticism and/or physicality, but rare exceptions do (as listed in this thread - Brad Thorn, Itoje, Nallet, Papé, etc.).

On the other hand, if you're 6'8"+ and not particularly athletic, you can still have a very good top level career as a lock. Unfortunately if you're 6'4"- 6'5", you need to be exceptionally athletic.

As an example, if Dev Toner was was 6'6" or even 6'7" but otherwise with exactly the same other physical attributes, his career would likely have been much more similar to that of his cousin Mark Flanagan (who was 6'6"/6'7").

[wixfjord]

Thornbury is a good player and would be a smart one for us to re-sign.

But while Jenkins might not be as palatable, but he's younger, bigger and more dynamic/powerful.

He's far more likely to be starting for us in a big Euro game than someone like Thornbury imo.

[hugonaut]

There's a Jenkins highlight reel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYEmZhoEzfY&t=496s

I think this was probably put together by his agent – certainly it's of a type. Obviously you only show good bits on a highlight reel, and this is five years old, but I was really interested to see some footage of this guy. I'd never seen even a minute of him playing. He has picked up niggle after niggle at Munster which is a bit of a worry, but there's some interesting things there.

He is really athletic and quick off the mark for such a tall man. He's not a Damian Willemse or Damian Browne type of player, a big bulwark of a man.That's what I thought we were getting. He's much more explosive. That might be good for us.

You can't tell how a player is going to fit in to the squad. It's a huge deal. That is particularly the case with a player who hasn't made his reputation at test level, but even some guys who have been regular test players don't fit in. For example, I frequently forget that Kane Douglas played for Leinster for a season. He should have been a good fit for us – he clearly had a spot in the team to fit into, he was playing under an Aussie coach – but everything was a problem for him.

Leinster as an organisation have been very well organised and very competent for the last six years or so, after an iffy period of two years with the ineffective and scattered Matt O'Connor as head coach. There aren't many holes in the squad and we're not looking for a player to come in and turn the team's fortunes around ... we're looking for a player to come in and fill a particular role, a role that is primarily effort-based.

We haven't had a South African in the squad since Zane Kirchner, a lovely fellah. We've had some great lads in the past from there – Heinke, Richardt and Big Ollie were all big contributors in their time here.

[Ruckedtobits]

There's a Jenkins highlight reel here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYEmZhoEzfY&t=496s

I think this was probably put together by his agent – certainly it's of a type. Obviously you only show good bits on a highlight reel, and this is five years old, but I was really interested to see some footage of this guy. I'd never seen even a minute of him playing. He has picked up niggle after niggle at Munster which is a bit of a worry, but there's some interesting things there.

He is really athletic and quick off the mark for such a tall man. He's not a Damian Willemse or Damian Browne type of player, a big bulwark of a man.That's what I thought we were getting. He's much more explosive. That might be good for us.

You can't tell how a player is going to fit in to the squad. It's a huge deal. That is particularly the case with a player who hasn't made his reputation at test level, but even some guys who have been regular test players don't fit in. For example, I frequently forget that Kane Douglas played for Leinster for a season. He should have been a good fit for us – he clearly had a spot in the team to fit into, he was playing under an Aussie coach – but everything was a problem for him.

Leinster as an organisation have been very well organised and very competent for the last six years or so, after an iffy period of two years with the ineffective and scattered Matt O'Connor as head coach. There aren't many holes in the squad and we're not looking for a player to come in and turn the team's fortunes around ... we're looking for a player to come in and fill a particular role, a role that is primarily effort-based.

We haven't had a South African in the squad since Zane Kirchner, a lovely fellah. We've had some great lads in the past from there – Heinke, Richardt and Big Ollie were all big contributors in their time here.

Although it's a compilation of historic pieces, these clips suggest he a seriously physical and mobile second row who jumps at 2, carries well and enjoys tackling. Added to his physical attributes in height and weight and his previous SA selection against teams like France & Aus, he appears to contribute all the work you want from a second-row.

Could be a goody.

[mildlyinterested]

So if Toner, Murphy, Dunne and Ryan leave:

Ages as the start of next season:

Ross Molony(28)
James Ryan(26)
Jason Jenkins(26)
Ryan Baird(23)
Brian Deeny(22)
--
Joe McCarthy(21)
Alex Soroka(21)
*incoming academy lock*

[wixfjord]

Josh is a pretty big loss imo.

Not just as a second row option, but also as a solid, physical, imposing and flexible presence when the internationals are away.

Besides Rhys, he's one of the most physical players we have from 4-8.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Josh is a pretty big loss imo.

Not just as a second row option, but also as a solid, physical, imposing and flexible presence when the internationals are away.

Besides Rhys, he's one of the most physical players we have from 4-8.

agreed, but if it's in his interest to develop where he may get more and better quality gametime then best of luck.