2nd Row going forward

[wixfjord]

The reaction to this has been predictable, but one of the more nonsensical responses has been 'he doesn't fit into our system'.

Like what does that even mean? It's totally hollow. We were told again and again after Sarries & La Rochelle that it was down to one thing - power.

We needed a big powerful 20 stone 6'8 SH second row who could help us compete in the tight and get guaranteed go forward.

We had enough good ball players in the pack and LAR were able to take us apart because we didn't have the power to go up against them.

Here's the thread, go back and have a look - https://www.leinsterfans.com/forum/view ... &start=520

We really to sign a big brute of a lock to help out JR. That lad is being asked to do too much and his body will be shot by the time he's 30. He needs help, being asked to run the lineout, be the pack leader, carry over and over again, hit rucks and overpower people is too much for a player with a bit of history with hia and operations on his shoulders this early in his career.

100%

One big signing of this nature asap please.

Given we have come unstuck several times against Pacific Island-inspired power teams, I think it's very clear we are not able to 'play around' teams who are truly excellent at applying their power. We won't win another European Cup without a big second row. On that topic, there's a low budget option playing in the Pro D2 - Maselino Paulino, 6'9" and 120kg, obviously not on Skelton's level, but a very powerful guy.

Bottom line is if you watch the game back yesterday (especially the second half) we were physically on the back foot up front for most of it...
There is nothing 'wrong' with our approach but by being behind the curve on the big physical lumps we are putting huge pressure on other areas.

So we either counter the big physical deficit by signing a couple of lumps or we plug away as we are but accept that when it comes to the crunch we have to win 2-3 at best 50:50 game and the odds are against us.

I'm not saying either route is ideal but anyone who is denying immense physicality isn't an issue after what has happened in 2019,2020 and 2021 is I think just not being realistic.

Important to remember that we lost for multiple reasons. Power was the big one for me and it’s not just a case of them rumbling forward and us not being able to stop them, it obviously has the knock on effect of tiring us out and trying to do things on the back foot etc etc.
...

But just in terms of trying to sign some power, in an ideal world I think we’d sign a big lump in the second row but it’s not going to happen. The good news is that IMO we could look a lot better this time next year if we have Porter and Furlong both starting with Alaalatoa on the bench, Sheehan on the bench, Baird a year older, Ryan fitter and sharper, proper depth in the back row again, someone like Soroka breaking through etc etc.

Personally I think we need to stop thinking of signing the likes of Skelton or Snyman and think more about someone being Damian Browne 2.0, and I think we can achieve that.

Very disappointed.

They just had too much power. They had the squeeze in the scrum, won the collisions and their caries around the fringes got them easy meters. Atonio and Skelton unstoppable.

The top teams in Europe at the moment all seem to have one or two absolute units (Skelton is 140kg and Atonio 150kg). Pretty much every second row in the Top14 you can think of is just a massive (in the literal sense) object - I'm talking over 120kg.
We don't really have any, and I agree it seems unlikely we will be allowed to sign one.
Sheehan looks like he has potential (as did Salanoa). But, while we have great players 4-8, we don't have a wrecking ball and, unless I have missed someone, nobody with the physical attributes to become one.

So then we go out and sign a 124kg, 6'8 SA lock who's game is literally based on power in the tackle, tight and carry.

And now he doesn't fit into our system?

[Dexter]

I predict that he'll be great in Leinster...

There you go..

[curates_egg]

Perhaps the Dunne lad would have too.

I hope Jenkins doesn't turn out to be a Douglas and Dunne doesn't turn out to be a Beirne.

Id have prefered if the coaches rated Dunne but they dont appear to. Hopefully the relationship hasnt soured and if he succeeds in exeter he is open to a return in a year or two, maybe to replace JJ

I hope so too.

There is an argument above that this is a short term signing to win a trophy for J10 and the coaches. We could all get in behind that.
The only problem with that theory is that, every time we have won in Europe, it came when we signed an experienced player at 4-6.
Maybe this guy will break the mold. But his record is less impressive than Kane Douglas, to use a very reasonable comparison.

[carlow man]

The reaction to this has been predictable, but one of the more nonsensical responses has been 'he doesn't fit into our system'.

Like what does that even mean? It's totally hollow. We were told again and again after Sarries & La Rochelle that it was down to one thing - tight power.

We needed a big powerful 20 stone 6'8 SH second row who could help us compete in the tight and get guaranteed go forward.

Here's the thread, go back and have a look - https://www.leinsterfans.com/forum/view ... &start=520

So we go out and sign a 19 and a half stone 6'8 SA lock who's game is based on power in the tackle, tight and carry.

And now he doesn't fit into our system.

We hoped for a world class proven lock. We got a s.a who hasn't played any rugby in a year. He wasn't even signed to play second row at munster. If he was anyway decent they would have kept hold of him. He may turn out to be a shrewd signing but it smacks of doing things on the cheap. Hope the lad does well but it hardly sends out a message to Europe's elite that we are going all out to get that cup back! Feel we have missed out yet again. Signing a big marquee lock would have been a huge boost to our hopes of winning in Europe.

[wixfjord]

The reaction to this has been predictable, but one of the more nonsensical responses has been 'he doesn't fit into our system'.

Like what does that even mean? It's totally hollow. We were told again and again after Sarries & La Rochelle that it was down to one thing - tight power.

We needed a big powerful 20 stone 6'8 SH second row who could help us compete in the tight and get guaranteed go forward.

Here's the thread, go back and have a look - https://www.leinsterfans.com/forum/view ... &start=520

So we go out and sign a 19 and a half stone 6'8 SA lock who's game is based on power in the tackle, tight and carry.

And now he doesn't fit into our system.

We hoped for a world class proven lock. We got a s.a who hasn't played any rugby in a year. He wasn't even signed to play second row at munster. If he was anyway decent they would have kept hold of him. He may turn out to be a shrewd signing but it smacks of doing things on the cheap. Hope the lad does well but it hardly sends out a message to Europe's elite that we are going all out to get that cup back! Feel we have missed out yet again. Signing a big marquee lock would have been a huge boost to our hopes of winning in Europe.

Nope, the hope was for power. Or a 'big brute' as you yourself put it. There was talk of signing giant Fijians from ProD2 actally.

We have an incredibly talented pack and we've seemingly signed a guy who has a very good profile for what we want.

But a lot of people are predictably writing him off because he's not Brodie Retallick and has come from Munster.

I hope he's not reading LF checking out how the fans of his new club are welcoming him.

[curates_egg]

The top teams in Europe at the moment all seem to have one or two absolute units (Skelton is 140kg and Atonio 150kg). Pretty much every second row in the Top14 you can think of is just a massive (in the literal sense) object - I'm talking over 120kg.
We don't really have any, and I agree it seems unlikely we will be allowed to sign one.
Sheehan looks like he has potential (as did Salanoa). But, while we have great players 4-8, we don't have a wrecking ball and, unless I have missed someone, nobody with the physical attributes to become one.

So then we go out and sign a 124kg, 6'8 SA lock who's game is literally based on power in the tackle, tight and carry.

And now he doesn't fit into our system?

As you're misquoting me to attack me as usual, with your usual straw men, I will respond.

Where did I say he is the wrong size player or wouldn't fit into our system? Nowhere: that's where.
He is the right size. He is just not world class or experienced.

My points are that:
(i) When we have won in Europe, we signed an experienced, grizzled, world class AnZac player at 4-6, in a position where we identified a need and profile (Wagga Wagga included).
(ii) When we have signed up-and-coming second rows, it has been universally a failure.
(iii) We are letting (a) a big home-grown second row with potential go to sign (b) a big non-home-grown second row with potential. We better hope that (a) doesn't turn out to be a Tadgh Beirne and (b) doesn't turn out to be a Kane Douglas.

If you want another fight with me, at least pick it on a point I have made.

On this signing, I will keep an open mind. However, it is not at the level most people were hoping for, and which experience has shown we needed to win in Europe.

[wixfjord]

The top teams in Europe at the moment all seem to have one or two absolute units (Skelton is 140kg and Atonio 150kg). Pretty much every second row in the Top14 you can think of is just a massive (in the literal sense) object - I'm talking over 120kg.
We don't really have any, and I agree it seems unlikely we will be allowed to sign one.
Sheehan looks like he has potential (as did Salanoa). But, while we have great players 4-8, we don't have a wrecking ball and, unless I have missed someone, nobody with the physical attributes to become one.

So then we go out and sign a 124kg, 6'8 SA lock who's game is literally based on power in the tackle, tight and carry.

And now he doesn't fit into our system?

As you're misquoting me to attack me as usual, with your usual straw men, I will respond.

Where did I say he is the wrong size player or wouldn't fit into our system? Nowhere: that's where.
He is the right size. He is just not world class or experienced.

My points are that:
(i) When we have won in Europe, we signed an experienced, grizzled, world class AnZac player at 4-6, in a position where we identified a need and profile (Wagga Wagga included).
(ii) When we have signed up-and-coming second rows, it has been universally a failure.
(iii) We are letting (a) a big home-grown second row with potential go to sign (b) a big non-home-grown second row with potential. We better hope that (a) doesn't turn out to be a Tadgh Beirne and (b) doesn't turn out to be a Kane Douglas.

If you want another fight with me, at least pick it on a point I have made.

I literally quoted 7-8 posts made on the matter at the time, one of which was yours.

https://www.leinsterfans.com/forum/view ... 56#p781356

I was responding to another point about him not fitting into the system.

Save the hysterics good lad.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Not really sure why I’m being quoted there. I haven’t said anything about him not fitting into the system.

[wixfjord]

Not really sure why I’m being quoted there. I haven’t said anything about him not fitting into the system.

I didn’t say you did.

[OTT]

Why are we discussing Jenkins here in the lock thread, isn’t he a blindside.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Not really sure why I’m being quoted there. I haven’t said anything about him not fitting into the system.

I didn’t say you did.

Why am I being quoted then? Bit confused.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Why are we discussing Jenkins here in the lock thread, isn’t he a blindside.

Why do the IRFU even bother with that stuff? We all knew it was horseshit but I don’t understand why they go along with it.

[neiliog93]

Given the leaks around us looking for an NIQ second-row mentioned 'world class', this is underwhelming. De Jager is out of contract at Sale, who are actively trying to offload him, and it was reported just before Christmas that he also turned down an offer from the Sharks (South African franchise). He would be more the calibre of player I hoped for.

Nonetheless, Jenkins won't be gone for world cups or international windows, and in raw physical terms, 6'8 + 124kg is what we need. I think he'll do well and contribute something if he can stay fit, without having the seismic impact a higher calibre player in his physical mould would bring (de Jager, Etzebeth, Skelton, etc.) It's Tesco own-brand vs. real Coca-Cola.

[bluemagic]

Given the leaks around us looking for an NIQ second-row mentioned 'world class', this is underwhelming. De Jager is out of contract at Sale, who are actively trying to offload him, and it was reported just before Christmas that he also turned down an offer from the Sharks (South African franchise). He would be more the calibre of player I hoped for.

Nonetheless, Jenkins won't be gone for world cups or international windows, and in raw physical terms, 6'8 + 124kg is what we need. I think he'll do well and contribute something if he can stay fit, without having the seismic impact a higher calibre player in his physical mould would bring (de Jager, Etzebeth, Skelton, etc.) It's Tesco own-brand vs. real Coca-Cola.

We don't really need the power and physicality for international windows or world cups..... That's not where we struggle.

Expect to be knocked out in Europe by a similarly physical team this year and we need a player a lot better than jenkins to change that.

[bluemagic]

If you look at who Munster are signing (Fekitoa at least) it's a much more inspired signing than what we are getting.

All for supporting Cullen and Lancaster's decision but that doesn't mean blindly following everything they do. As other posters have pointed out this smells very strongly of Nucifora sticking his oar in again

[Keith]

With the new elegibility rules, does Jenkins qualify for Ireland after 3 years here? Or does he have to complete 5 years now?

[hugonaut]

It's a good signing as far as I'm concerned.

When we signed Michael A and Munster signed jenkins I remember thinking at the time they should have been swapped.

Wrt replacing toner, Ryan and dunne, we only need to replace their minutes... and how many minutes do they have combined this season? Not many

If we had signed the guy directly from Japan or SA I think people's reaction would have been very different. But bare in mind players always look better playing for Leinster than for Munster.... because we are a better team.

Welcome Jason!

I'm very surprised that we're signing a guy from Munster, but everything you've said there makes sense. We have been looking for a big unit in the second row to scrummage on the tighthead side and provide heft and a bit of the old ultraviolence.

It should take a good bit of the load off James Ryan and allow him to play a game that takes more advantage of his natural abilities – that lad can run and pass and offload, as anybody who saw him at agegrade level will attest. We [both Leinster and Ireland] have been asking him to do all the heavy work since he was 22. It takes a lot out of the rest of his game.

Dev has played 270+ matches for us ... he has made a staggering contribution, now his career is winding down. Charlie Ryan is a great lad and has been a super captain of agegrade teams, but physically he's a slow burner. To be frank to the point of harshness, he hasn't got the power we need. It could be two or three more seasons [or longer] until he can contribute what we we're looking for in the tight exchanges. The new format of the league would make it hard for him to get the games to progress. I said hard there, when I should have said very, very unlikely. His strength is the lineout – where he is excellent – but we've got some great lineout players already in James Ryan and Baird, who are so much more athletically gifted and better players than him.

Dunne I'll be very sorry to lose if he goes to Exeter, as now seems likely. Great engine for such a big man and he just seems like a good all rounder. I think big Joe McCarthy is a more natural tighthead-side lock [he is seriously broad in the beam, and he's a more abrasive player] but there's always the danger that you can convince yourself that there's just one solution to a problem, when there could be another way of approaching it.

Longer term, obviously Spicer is an enormous prospect. An absolute giant – a genuine f*cking giant! – whose old man was a pro and who is already playing for agegrade representative teams. Yeah, he's not even doing his leaving this year, there's many a slip twixt cup and lip etc. ... but this is where our players come from. He'll be a pro, will stop global warming and most likely resolve tensions around Kashmir between India and Pakistan.

[mildlyinterested]

With the new elegibility rules, does Jenkins qualify for Ireland after 3 years here? Or does he have to complete 5 years now?

He has played for south africa so cant qualify

[Keith]

With the new elegibility rules, does Jenkins qualify for Ireland after 3 years here? Or does he have to complete 5 years now?

He has played for south africa so cant qualify

Is there not a stand down period that players can complete now in order to represent a 2nd test nation?

[mildlyinterested]

With the new elegibility rules, does Jenkins qualify for Ireland after 3 years here? Or does he have to complete 5 years now?

He has played for south africa so cant qualify

Is there not a stand down period that players can complete now in order to represent a 2nd test nation?

Not if that player has no links to that nation.