ChrisUppy wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 7:30 pm
It's a good signing as far as I'm concerned.
When we signed Michael A and Munster signed jenkins I remember thinking at the time they should have been swapped.
Wrt replacing toner, Ryan and dunne, we only need to replace their minutes... and how many minutes do they have combined this season? Not many
If we had signed the guy directly from Japan or SA I think people's reaction would have been very different. But bare in mind players always look better playing for Leinster than for Munster.... because we are a better team.
Welcome Jason!
I'm very surprised that we're signing a guy from Munster, but everything you've said there makes sense. We have been looking for a big unit in the second row to scrummage on the tighthead side and provide heft and a bit of the old ultraviolence.
It should take a good bit of the load off James Ryan and allow him to play a game that takes more advantage of his natural abilities – that lad can run and pass and offload, as anybody who saw him at agegrade level will attest. We [both Leinster and Ireland] have been asking him to do all the heavy work since he was 22. It takes a lot out of the rest of his game.
Dev has played 270+ matches for us ... he has made a staggering contribution, now his career is winding down. Charlie Ryan is a great lad and has been a super captain of agegrade teams, but physically he's a slow burner. To be frank to the point of harshness, he hasn't got the power we need. It could be two or three more seasons [or longer] until he can contribute what we we're looking for in the tight exchanges. The new format of the league would make it hard for him to get the games to progress. I said hard there, when I should have said very, very unlikely. His strength is the lineout – where he is excellent – but we've got some great lineout players already in James Ryan and Baird, who are so much more athletically gifted and better players than him.
Dunne I'll be very sorry to lose if he goes to Exeter, as now seems likely. Great engine for such a big man and he just seems like a good all rounder. I think big Joe McCarthy is a more natural tighthead-side lock [he is seriously broad in the beam, and he's a more abrasive player] but there's always the danger that you can convince yourself that there's just one solution to a problem, when there could be another way of approaching it.
Longer term, obviously Spicer is an enormous prospect. An absolute giant – a genuine f*cking giant! – whose old man was a pro and who is already playing for agegrade representative teams. Yeah, he's not even doing his leaving this year, there's many a slip twixt cup and lip etc. ... but this is where our players come from. He'll be a pro, will stop global warming and most likely resolve tensions around Kashmir between India and Pakistan.
could he start on Russia/Ukraine (closer to home!)
ChrisUppy wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 7:30 pm
It's a good signing as far as I'm concerned.
When we signed Michael A and Munster signed jenkins I remember thinking at the time they should have been swapped.
Wrt replacing toner, Ryan and dunne, we only need to replace their minutes... and how many minutes do they have combined this season? Not many
If we had signed the guy directly from Japan or SA I think people's reaction would have been very different. But bare in mind players always look better playing for Leinster than for Munster.... because we are a better team.
Welcome Jason!
I'm very surprised that we're signing a guy from Munster, but everything you've said there makes sense. We have been looking for a big unit in the second row to scrummage on the tighthead side and provide heft and a bit of the old ultraviolence.
It should take a good bit of the load off James Ryan and allow him to play a game that takes more advantage of his natural abilities – that lad can run and pass and offload, as anybody who saw him at agegrade level will attest. We [both Leinster and Ireland] have been asking him to do all the heavy work since he was 22. It takes a lot out of the rest of his game.
Dev has played 270+ matches for us ... he has made a staggering contribution, now his career is winding down. Charlie Ryan is a great lad and has been a super captain of agegrade teams, but physically he's a slow burner. To be frank to the point of harshness, he hasn't got the power we need. It could be two or three more seasons [or longer] until he can contribute what we we're looking for in the tight exchanges. The new format of the league would make it hard for him to get the games to progress. I said hard there, when I should have said very, very unlikely. His strength is the lineout – where he is excellent – but we've got some great lineout players already in James Ryan and Baird, who are so much more athletically gifted and better players than him.
Dunne I'll be very sorry to lose if he goes to Exeter, as now seems likely. Great engine for such a big man and he just seems like a good all rounder. I think big Joe McCarthy is a more natural tighthead-side lock [he is seriously broad in the beam, and he's a more abrasive player] but there's always the danger that you can convince yourself that there's just one solution to a problem, when there could be another way of approaching it.
Longer term, obviously Spicer is an enormous prospect. An absolute giant – a genuine f*cking giant! – whose old man was a pro and who is already playing for agegrade representative teams. Yeah, he's not even doing his leaving this year, there's many a slip twixt cup and lip etc. ... but this is where our players come from. He'll be a pro, will stop global warming and most likely resolve tensions around Kashmir between India and Pakistan.
If Joe McCarthy was closer to 200cm than 195cm he'd be a big time prospect, but he is short for a modern lock and it may count against him at he progresses to higher levels.
Dunne/Ryan need to play games and develop thats not going to happen at leinster. Better off getting away.
Spicer is huge physcially.. but he doesnt even start for a bad Belvedere team. So not going to get my hopes up there either, still hopefully leinster invest in developing him.
Mind you, JvG would have known that Sheehan rejected their overtures and, seeing as this came to light after the Exeter news but the lack of contracts being offered here was apparently earlier than that it is possible he knew about this too...
I too am disappointed Jack Dunne is moving, but it's probably for the best, as his career at Leinster has been flatlining for the last two seasons - for whatever reason. If Leo et al are prepared to give Jason Jenkins a go, then so am I and I wish him all the best. Let's give the guy a chance to prove himself, before we make any assessment on the merits of the move. Remember the time Michael Bent's wife laid into the Leinster fans for the flak directed at Joe Tomane? We would do well, IMO, to heed her words from back then and not jump the gun with our skepticism and doubts.
The Jenkins signing feels weird because we're getting him from Munster. HAven't actually seen him play for Munster as I swithced off the Castres game before it was over. I did technically see him play in what was arguably the worst game of the decade vs Wales in Washington a few seasons ago. SHocker of a game between 2 terrible teams(on the day etc). We'll see how it goes but he looks like what we're looking for.
Would still be disappointing to lose both Dunne and Ryan especially with Toner on the way out. We technically won't have any games during test windows(Covid permitting) but having just 2 locks seems a bit light. I guess Ruddock and Murphy as 5.5s is the shape of things to come(and confirmation that Dunne is out the door). Seems like not too long ago we were quite excited about our [prospects at lock with Dunne, Baird, Dowling and Ryan coming thru at the same time. It does show the limit of what we can develop. We'd never have been able to get Dowling the minutes he's gotten at Connacht
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
ChrisUppy wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 7:30 pm
It's a good signing as far as I'm concerned.
When we signed Michael A and Munster signed jenkins I remember thinking at the time they should have been swapped.
Wrt replacing toner, Ryan and dunne, we only need to replace their minutes... and how many minutes do they have combined this season? Not many
If we had signed the guy directly from Japan or SA I think people's reaction would have been very different. But bare in mind players always look better playing for Leinster than for Munster.... because we are a better team.
Welcome Jason!
I'm very surprised that we're signing a guy from Munster, but everything you've said there makes sense. We have been looking for a big unit in the second row to scrummage on the tighthead side and provide heft and a bit of the old ultraviolence.
It should take a good bit of the load off James Ryan and allow him to play a game that takes more advantage of his natural abilities – that lad can run and pass and offload, as anybody who saw him at agegrade level will attest. We [both Leinster and Ireland] have been asking him to do all the heavy work since he was 22. It takes a lot out of the rest of his game.
Dev has played 270+ matches for us ... he has made a staggering contribution, now his career is winding down. Charlie Ryan is a great lad and has been a super captain of agegrade teams, but physically he's a slow burner. To be frank to the point of harshness, he hasn't got the power we need. It could be two or three more seasons [or longer] until he can contribute what we we're looking for in the tight exchanges. The new format of the league would make it hard for him to get the games to progress. I said hard there, when I should have said very, very unlikely. His strength is the lineout – where he is excellent – but we've got some great lineout players already in James Ryan and Baird, who are so much more athletically gifted and better players than him.
Dunne I'll be very sorry to lose if he goes to Exeter, as now seems likely. Great engine for such a big man and he just seems like a good all rounder. I think big Joe McCarthy is a more natural tighthead-side lock [he is seriously broad in the beam, and he's a more abrasive player] but there's always the danger that you can convince yourself that there's just one solution to a problem, when there could be another way of approaching it.
Longer term, obviously Spicer is an enormous prospect. An absolute giant – a genuine f*cking giant! – whose old man was a pro and who is already playing for agegrade representative teams. Yeah, he's not even doing his leaving this year, there's many a slip twixt cup and lip etc. ... but this is where our players come from. He'll be a pro, will stop global warming and most likely resolve tensions around Kashmir between India and Pakistan.
If Joe McCarthy was closer to 200cm than 195cm he'd be a big time prospect, but he is short for a modern lock and it may count against him at he progresses to higher levels.
Dunne/Ryan need to play games and develop thats not going to happen at leinster. Better off getting away.
Spicer is huge physcially.. but he doesnt even start for a bad Belvedere team. So not going to get my hopes up there either, still hopefully leinster invest in developing him.
Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully
Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.
I'm very surprised that we're signing a guy from Munster, but everything you've said there makes sense. We have been looking for a big unit in the second row to scrummage on the tighthead side and provide heft and a bit of the old ultraviolence.
It should take a good bit of the load off James Ryan and allow him to play a game that takes more advantage of his natural abilities – that lad can run and pass and offload, as anybody who saw him at agegrade level will attest. We [both Leinster and Ireland] have been asking him to do all the heavy work since he was 22. It takes a lot out of the rest of his game.
Dev has played 270+ matches for us ... he has made a staggering contribution, now his career is winding down. Charlie Ryan is a great lad and has been a super captain of agegrade teams, but physically he's a slow burner. To be frank to the point of harshness, he hasn't got the power we need. It could be two or three more seasons [or longer] until he can contribute what we we're looking for in the tight exchanges. The new format of the league would make it hard for him to get the games to progress. I said hard there, when I should have said very, very unlikely. His strength is the lineout – where he is excellent – but we've got some great lineout players already in James Ryan and Baird, who are so much more athletically gifted and better players than him.
Dunne I'll be very sorry to lose if he goes to Exeter, as now seems likely. Great engine for such a big man and he just seems like a good all rounder. I think big Joe McCarthy is a more natural tighthead-side lock [he is seriously broad in the beam, and he's a more abrasive player] but there's always the danger that you can convince yourself that there's just one solution to a problem, when there could be another way of approaching it.
Longer term, obviously Spicer is an enormous prospect. An absolute giant – a genuine f*cking giant! – whose old man was a pro and who is already playing for agegrade representative teams. Yeah, he's not even doing his leaving this year, there's many a slip twixt cup and lip etc. ... but this is where our players come from. He'll be a pro, will stop global warming and most likely resolve tensions around Kashmir between India and Pakistan.
If Joe McCarthy was closer to 200cm than 195cm he'd be a big time prospect, but he is short for a modern lock and it may count against him at he progresses to higher levels.
Dunne/Ryan need to play games and develop thats not going to happen at leinster. Better off getting away.
Spicer is huge physcially.. but he doesnt even start for a bad Belvedere team. So not going to get my hopes up there either, still hopefully leinster invest in developing him.
Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully
Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.
there isn't many top level locks who are that "short", he may get away with it but it would be better if he was taller with the same build/weight.
there's a premium on height and bulk at TH lock, just look at the proposed signing of Jenkins. And McCarthy just doesnt have that same size unfortunately, still I think he is a good prospect just not an elite one due to that lack of elite size.
Last edited by mildlyinterested on January 20th, 2022, 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If Joe McCarthy was closer to 200cm than 195cm he'd be a big time prospect, but he is short for a modern lock and it may count against him at he progresses to higher levels.
Dunne/Ryan need to play games and develop thats not going to happen at leinster. Better off getting away.
Spicer is huge physcially.. but he doesnt even start for a bad Belvedere team. So not going to get my hopes up there either, still hopefully leinster invest in developing him.
Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully
Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.
there isn't many top level locks who are that "short", he may get away with it but it would be better if he was taller with the same build/weight.
there's a premium on height and bulk at TH lock, just look at the proposed signing of Jenkins. And McCarthy just doesnt have that size unfortunately.
True, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.
Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully
Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.
there isn't many top level locks who are that "short", he may get away with it but it would be better if he was taller with the same build/weight.
there's a premium on height and bulk at TH lock, just look at the proposed signing of Jenkins. And McCarthy just doesnt have that size unfortunately.
True, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.
he plays with an edge from what i've seen, he is a physical player and a bit raw but he has potential.. but I was surprised to see him look smaller than I expected when next to other forwards in the trinity pack or for leinster A. Still he is just 20, so he is still maturing physically, but that natural size he carries will certainly help, it wont be a battle to put weight on like it has been for most of leinster locks who are in that 6'5 to 6'6 range.
Leinster need to keep an eye on how Dunne develops at exeter, if he matures into the player he is capable of, i'd hope leinster would look to bring him back into the fold.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
mildlyinterested wrote: ↑January 20th, 2022, 7:21 pm
Deeny is in his final year of the academy, no guarantee he will be here next season either i'd say.
Josh Murphy is viewed as a lock now, so Ryan/Baird/Molony/Murphy/Jenkins next season looks to be on the cards, with maybe Deeny on a dev contract.
It does seem to be going that way but not sure if that's just Dunne being cut out of the picture because he's leaving.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
mildlyinterested wrote: ↑January 20th, 2022, 7:21 pm
Deeny is in his final year of the academy, no guarantee he will be here next season either i'd say.
Josh Murphy is viewed as a lock now, so Ryan/Baird/Molony/Murphy/Jenkins next season looks to be on the cards, with maybe Deeny on a dev contract.
It does seem to be going that way but not sure if that's just Dunne being cut out of the picture because he's leaving.
Nah he has been focusing on lock since the summer.
leinsterforever wrote: ↑January 20th, 2022, 7:37 pmTrue, it's hard to think of too many sub-6'6'' top locks other than Thorn. But his weight gives him an edge. Pair him with a lineout specialist who's at least 6'7'' and I think it could in theory work very well. I've hardly seen him play, though, so this is speculation on my part.
Joe Tekori comes to mind. Alun Wyn Jones barely scrapes 6'6" on a good day
mildlyinterested wrote: ↑January 20th, 2022, 1:16 pm If Joe McCarthy was closer to 200cm than 195cm he'd be a big time prospect, but he is short for a modern lock and it may count against him at he progresses to higher levels.
Dunne/Ryan need to play games and develop thats not going to happen at leinster. Better off getting away.
Spicer is huge physcially.. but he doesnt even start for a bad Belvedere team. So not going to get my hopes up there either, still hopefully leinster invest in developing him.
Depends what kind of player he is. Extra height could be a hindrance in tackling, carrying, pushing in the scrum and clearing out rucks. Somebody of 6'5''-6'6'' who's 119 kilos is going to be far more massively built than someone 6'7''-6'8'' who's the same weight. He certainly looks to have very well developed legs in photos. Being shortish would be a problem if he's trying to be a Matfield or O'Connell-type main lineout lock, but maybe he's more Brad Thorn... hopefully
Get him to jump at the front of the lineout and pair him with a good lineout operator and maybe you'd have a really well balanced lock combination.
Good points. I can see both sides of the argument. looking at it from a positive point of view, for the average player the extra inches makes a difference but some players are above average in ability. Itoje isn't the biggest, neither is Beirne or Franco Mostert but they make an impact. There are plenty of 6'7 and taller players who are plodders.
McCarthy is 120kg apparently and from the little I saw of him he looks powerful. If the lineout is a weak point then it will depend on other players but being tall doesn't necessarily mean you're good in the lineout. POM is much better in the lineout than Kleyn. Different positions but that's kind of my point.
Ryan, Baird and Molony plus now Jenkins for next year and of course Josh Murphy plus Academy support. Ruddock of course can fill in if we are beset with injuries.
If Jenkins proves a decent player and Josh continues to convert into 2nd Row material and makes a good go of it we will be fine.
Liked what Murphy did v Montpellier but impossible to tell really considering the opposition.
In fairness we are very lucky re Molony's continued improvement - he is going to be pivotal Leinster lynchpin in the row for many years to come all going well and has all the makings of a Jenno esq Leinster legend.
could he start on Russia/Ukraine (closer to home!)
