2nd Row going forward

[mildlyinterested]

With the extension of Fardy and Toner for one more season, all the senior 2nd rows signed a new contract this season, along with 2 promotions from the academy this is what the position looks like currently:

Lock
Devin Toner(34) - 6'11, 126kg. Signed 1 yr contract in 2020
Ross Molony(26) - 6'6, 111kg. signed contract in 2020
James Ryan(24) - 6'8, 112kg. signed 3 yr central contract in 2020
Jack Dunne(21) - 6'8, 115kg. signed contract in 2020
Charlie Ryan(21) - 6'7 110kg. Academy Yr 2
Brian Deeny(20) - 6'7, 110kg. Academy Yr 2

Lock/Blindside
Scott Fardy(36) - 6'6, 114kg. Signed 1 yr contract in 2020
Josh Murphy(25) - 6'6, 108kg. signed contract in 2020.
Ryan Baird(21) - 6'6 110kg, signed contract in 2020.

You'd assume this is Fardy's last season with Leinster and Toner will continue on after this upcoming season, Ryan moving onto a central contract was a given, he already only plays in leinster's most important games. Dunne graduated from the academy early along with Baird. It will be interesting to see how the share game time going forward with so many young players knocking around who need game time. Could Leinster next season only have homegrown 2nd rows next season? Or is a experienced, heavier lock needed?

Potential academy entrants:
Alex Soroka(U20/Belvedere/Clontarf) - 6'5, 105kg

Show Spoiler:

Joe McCarthy(U20/Blackrock/DUFC) - 6'6, 108kg

Show Spoiler:

Soroka fits the Lock/Blindside prototype with experience at both positions, it's heavily rumoured he has joined the academy and is very highly rated as a blindside. McCarthy was impressive off the bench for the 20's and looked to have the frame and physicality for TH lock, it wouldn't be a surprise if he also joined the academy this summer. Beyond that leinster's production line of 2nd rows continues with 4 underage 2nd rows involved with ireland u18 last season.

James Ryan is now 6'7' not 6'8'. Shrunk a bit since his Lions snub I guess.

was always a generous listing. Jack Dunne probably 6'7 too.

[wixfjord]

No idea if there's any truth in this at all, given it's Rugbypass and there's no detail at all I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/leinster ... squad-bok/

[riocard911]

Delighted for Jack Dunne after his call up to play for the Barbarians alongside Rob Kearney.

[mildlyinterested]

was hoping he'd be playing regularly for leinster by now but that doesn't appear to be on the cards.

[Ruckedtobits]

was hoping he'd be playing regularly for leinster by now but that doesn't appear to be on the cards.

Ryan's HIA surely make Dunne's presence becomes even more urgent? Even with Dev and Baird and Ross Moloney, we are going to miss Fardy in a big way in our December games. Possibly Josh Murphy may be asked to share the load in a high-tempo game plan and we could survive that, but certainly against Mont P, and possibly Ulster & Munster each opponent will be keen to try to make our contests a arm-wrestle rather than a try-fest

[deco]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/leinster ... squad-bok/ no source in the article, but didn't Cullen say they were looking during the autumn? If we're serious about Europe we need a Fardy/Hines type on board.

[wixfjord]

was hoping he'd be playing regularly for leinster by now but that doesn't appear to be on the cards.

Turned 23 on Sunday and just back from a major injury. Plenty of time, particularly considering he's more on the Dev side of the second row physical spectrum than the Baird side.

[CiaranIrl]

We know that Ryan is a top quality second row, and Baird has the potential to get a similar level. Molony is excellent, and can absolutely do an excellent job at HEC level. I wouldn't write his international chances off either personally, if he maintains the same rate of development.

After that it gets really murky. We don't know where Toner is at right now and if he has it in him to play at the highest level for one more year. He seemed to get a bid sidelined in the early URC games. Dunne appeared to have lots of potential for a while, but he had some dodgy appearances late last season (one where he missed tackles and got a yellow card, all off the bench, comes to mind). After that, I don't have a sense about the academy prospects (Deeny, Ryan, McCarthy - is that still correct?). Soroka and Josh Murphy aren't big enough for the row in my opinion.

All in all, we are either short one lock or one of the people in that second paragraph are likely to be good enough.

[mildlyinterested]

interesting to look at some updated stats for leinster 2nd rows:

Devin Toner(35/Castleknock): 6'10, 126kg
Jack Dunne(23/St. Michaels): 6'8, 120kg
Charlie Ryan(22/Blackrock): 6'8, 115kg
James Ryan(25/St. Michaels): 6'7, 115kg
Brian Deeny(21/Wexford): 6'7, 111kg
Joe McCarthy(20/Blackrock): 6'6, 119kg
Ross Molony(27/St. Michaels): 6'6, 113kg
Josh Murphy(26/St. Michaels): 6'6, 110kg
Ryan Baird(22/St. Michaels): 6'6, 103kg
Alex Soroka(20/Belvedere): 6'5, 105kg

Some of those look off, Bairds probably 113kg not 103.. I don't believe either Charlie Ryan or Jack Dunne are 6'8, nor Brian Deeny 6'7 or Joe McCarthy 6'6. Sorokas stats havent been updated for awhile.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

We know that Ryan is a top quality second row, and Baird has the potential to get a similar level. Molony is excellent, and can absolutely do an excellent job at HEC level. I wouldn't write his international chances off either personally, if he maintains the same rate of development.

After that it gets really murky. We don't know where Toner is at right now and if he has it in him to play at the highest level for one more year. He seemed to get a bid sidelined in the early URC games. Dunne appeared to have lots of potential for a while, but he had some dodgy appearances late last season (one where he missed tackles and got a yellow card, all off the bench, comes to mind). After that, I don't have a sense about the academy prospects (Deeny, Ryan, McCarthy - is that still correct?). Soroka and Josh Murphy aren't big enough for the row in my opinion.

All in all, we are either short one lock or one of the people in that second paragraph are likely to be good enough.

I think our newfound strength in the front and back rows (assuming we can mimic Ireland) takes a lot of the heat off our second rows now. A solid workhorse like Molony might even suit us even better than the brick shithouse option that we've been crying out for over the last couple of years.

[Ruckedtobits]

interesting to look at some updated stats for leinster 2nd rows:

Devin Toner(35/Castleknock): 6'10, 126kg
Jack Dunne(23/St. Michaels): 6'8, 120kg
Charlie Ryan(22/Blackrock): 6'8, 115kg
James Ryan(25/St. Michaels): 6'7, 115kg
Brian Deeny(21/Wexford): 6'7, 111kg
Joe McCarthy(20/Blackrock): 6'6, 119kg
Ross Molony(27/St. Michaels): 6'6, 113kg
Josh Murphy(26/St. Michaels): 6'6, 110kg
Ryan Baird(22/St. Michaels): 6'6, 103kg
Alex Soroka(20/Belvedere): 6'5, 105kg

Some of those look off, Bairds probably 113kg not 103.. I don't believe either Charlie Ryan or Jack Dunne are 6'8, nor Brian Deeny 6'7 or Joe McCarthy 6'6. Sorokas stats havent been updated for awhile.

Josh Murphy & Ryan Baird might be an awesome pair in the final quarter of a high-tempo game.

[ronk]

We know that Ryan is a top quality second row, and Baird has the potential to get a similar level. Molony is excellent, and can absolutely do an excellent job at HEC level. I wouldn't write his international chances off either personally, if he maintains the same rate of development.

After that it gets really murky. We don't know where Toner is at right now and if he has it in him to play at the highest level for one more year. He seemed to get a bid sidelined in the early URC games. Dunne appeared to have lots of potential for a while, but he had some dodgy appearances late last season (one where he missed tackles and got a yellow card, all off the bench, comes to mind). After that, I don't have a sense about the academy prospects (Deeny, Ryan, McCarthy - is that still correct?). Soroka and Josh Murphy aren't big enough for the row in my opinion.

All in all, we are either short one lock or one of the people in that second paragraph are likely to be good enough.

I think our newfound strength in the front and back rows (assuming we can mimic Ireland) takes a lot of the heat off our second rows now. A solid workhorse like Molony might even suit us even better than the brick shithouse option that we've been crying out for over the last couple of years.

And power in the backrow.

The change in the national side now makes it impossible for us to pivot to be Saracens/La Rochelle

[mildlyinterested]

We know that Ryan is a top quality second row, and Baird has the potential to get a similar level. Molony is excellent, and can absolutely do an excellent job at HEC level. I wouldn't write his international chances off either personally, if he maintains the same rate of development.

After that it gets really murky. We don't know where Toner is at right now and if he has it in him to play at the highest level for one more year. He seemed to get a bid sidelined in the early URC games. Dunne appeared to have lots of potential for a while, but he had some dodgy appearances late last season (one where he missed tackles and got a yellow card, all off the bench, comes to mind). After that, I don't have a sense about the academy prospects (Deeny, Ryan, McCarthy - is that still correct?). Soroka and Josh Murphy aren't big enough for the row in my opinion.

All in all, we are either short one lock or one of the people in that second paragraph are likely to be good enough.

I think our newfound strength in the front and back rows (assuming we can mimic Ireland) takes a lot of the heat off our second rows now. A solid workhorse like Molony might even suit us even better than the brick shithouse option that we've been crying out for over the last couple of years.

And power in the backrow.

The change in the national side now makes it impossible for us to pivot to be Saracens/La Rochelle

No one is saying we need to pivot to their style of play but a 2nd row of Molony/Ryan will struggle to win collisions consistently at the highest level in europe, maybe the front row and backrow will be able to overcome that but the 2nd row will be underpowered if thats the lineup.

Molony isn't Henderson or Beirne and Saracens/La Rochelle/Toulouse have bigger more powerful packs than ireland have faced this autumn. Baird seems best suited to a bench role as is, not to mention Ryans injury record...

[fourthirtythree]

Game has changed. La Rochelle have struggled with their kick ball always plan.

We didn't really play anyone this AI series dead set on stopping the ball in play time but the world has changed and the previous two years are no longer a good guide.

Don't fight the last war, prepare for the next one.

[mildlyinterested]

Game has changed. La Rochelle have struggled with their kick ball always plan.

We didn't really play anyone this AI series dead set on stopping the ball in play time but the world has changed and the previous two years are no longer a good guide.

Don't fight the last war, prepare for the next one.

Game is still about winning collisions.

[ronk]

Depends on if bigger is always better.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

We know that Ryan is a top quality second row, and Baird has the potential to get a similar level. Molony is excellent, and can absolutely do an excellent job at HEC level. I wouldn't write his international chances off either personally, if he maintains the same rate of development.

After that it gets really murky. We don't know where Toner is at right now and if he has it in him to play at the highest level for one more year. He seemed to get a bid sidelined in the early URC games. Dunne appeared to have lots of potential for a while, but he had some dodgy appearances late last season (one where he missed tackles and got a yellow card, all off the bench, comes to mind). After that, I don't have a sense about the academy prospects (Deeny, Ryan, McCarthy - is that still correct?). Soroka and Josh Murphy aren't big enough for the row in my opinion.

All in all, we are either short one lock or one of the people in that second paragraph are likely to be good enough.

I think our newfound strength in the front and back rows (assuming we can mimic Ireland) takes a lot of the heat off our second rows now. A solid workhorse like Molony might even suit us even better than the brick shithouse option that we've been crying out for over the last couple of years.

And power in the backrow.

The change in the national side now makes it impossible for us to pivot to be Saracens/La Rochelle

I mentioned the back row.

[mildlyinterested]

Depends on if bigger is always better.

physics still apply in a collision sport, Molony/Ryan is an undersized and under-powered lock pairing when it comes to the elite end of european rugby, the power in the front and backrow may allow leinster to overcome this issue but it still would be an issue leinster would be working around.

a lot harder to keep the ball alive if you aren't getting go forward ball from the pack.

I think it's quite clear that leinster are on the look out for a big powerful lock for this very reason.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Game has changed. La Rochelle have struggled with their kick ball always plan.

We didn't really play anyone this AI series dead set on stopping the ball in play time but the world has changed and the previous two years are no longer a good guide.

Don't fight the last war, prepare for the next one.

Yeah. The big thing is that if you're reluctant to go to the boot and also have more options on the ball then you're limiting the time that you just face wave after wave of attack by kicking it away or getting turned over with one out runners. You're fresher with the ball and fresher without it. Leinster and Ireland can both do that no problem, but we can't engage in an arm wrestle and I'm not sure why we'd want to. It's always nice to have an option to play like that if you're playing in awful conditions but in terms of those big matches at the business end of the season I think Ireland has shown the way for the short and medium term.

[ronk]

Depends on if bigger is always better.

physics still apply in a collision sport, Molony/Ryan is an undersized and under-powered lock pairing when it comes to the elite end of european rugby, the power in the front and backrow may allow leinster to overcome this issue but it still would be an issue leinster would be working around.

a lot harder to keep the ball alive if you aren't getting go forward ball from the pack.

I think it's quite clear that leinster are on the look out for a big powerful lock for this very reason.

Physics also says you should move the big lump around rather than go through him. With options to vary the point of attack you can get mismatches after a few phases.