Hooker options going forward

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Keith
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by Keith »

erskinechilders wrote:
March 12th, 2021, 12:48 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
March 12th, 2021, 12:18 pm
elephantman wrote:
March 12th, 2021, 12:07 pm


As long as Nucifora doesn’t stick his nose in..
almost certain he will, can only hope that the lads tell him no, as Porter has had to many times.
All of the other provinces seem to have exciting prospects coming up at hooker too though. Stewart in Ulster, DTM in Connacht and even Buckley looks like a beast in Munster. I'd be more worried about someone like Barron leaving.
DTM isn't getting his game with Connacht despite them playing in a dead rubber this weekend and is out of contract I think? Strange as I would've thought he was a serious prospect. I'm sure the IRFU will block any province signing a NIQ hooker as we are worryingly short there at the minute, you'd hope Herring is only seen as a stop gap by Farrell.

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ronk
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by ronk »

Nucifora torched his leverage when Cronin got dumped out of the Ireland squad.

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ronk
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by ronk »

The two hooker argument doesn’t stretch far with Scannel and Herring (& Connacht are strong too).

3 international hookers gets more attention. I think Tracy is underrated btw.

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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

Peg Leg wrote:
March 12th, 2021, 1:35 pm
elephantman wrote:
March 12th, 2021, 12:07 pm
wixfjord wrote:
March 12th, 2021, 10:56 am
Kelleher & Sheahan as a one/two combo is incredible.

If both can tighten the nuts and bolts and stay injury free they'll be our 1 & 16 for the next 10-15 years. Great position to be in.
As long as Nucifora doesn’t stick his nose in..
He appears to be using body weight as the trading value between Leinster and Munster. By my reckoning, if we're to keep both of the lads, we'll probably have to calve another couple of scrum halves.
Very good :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Good performance from BB last night on return from injury, no issues again with his lineout throwing.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Image

Sheehan :shock:

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

With Cronin presumed off... the top 3 hookers should be called upon a lot next season.. McKee/Barron haven't played much rugby at all this season.

James Tracy(30/Newbridge/UCD)
Ronan Kelleher(23/St. Michaels/Lansdowne)
Dan Sheehan(22/Clongowes/Lansdowne)
John McKee(21/Campbell/Old Belvedere)
Lee Barron(20/St. Michaels/DUFC)

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

I expect Munster will be targeting Dan Sheehan with his contract up for renewal in 2022, will be important to handle his transition into strongest 23 going forward if we are going to ensure he isn't tempted to move south with the promise of the starting 2 jersey in Munster and more top level game time.

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by Blue Man »

mildlyinterested wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:04 pm
I expect Munster will be targeting Dan Sheehan with his contract up for renewal in 2022, will be important to handle his transition into strongest 23 going forward if we are going to ensure he isn't tempted to move south with the promise of the starting 2 jersey in Munster and more top level game time.
I don’t think this is realistic. He is developing well through the Leinster system. He is getting opportunities and with Byrne gone, Cronin on the way out and Kelleher in the Irish team, he will continue to get game time. Move to the turnips doesn’t make sense as Sheehan and Kelleher can be our hookers for the next 10 years. Porter is a good example of a front row player developed in tandem with a leading international; Sheehan can be the same

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Blue Man wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:27 pm
mildlyinterested wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:04 pm
I expect Munster will be targeting Dan Sheehan with his contract up for renewal in 2022, will be important to handle his transition into strongest 23 going forward if we are going to ensure he isn't tempted to move south with the promise of the starting 2 jersey in Munster and more top level game time.
I don’t think this is realistic. He is developing well through the Leinster system. He is getting opportunities and with Byrne gone, Cronin on the way out and Kelleher in the Irish team, he will continue to get game time. Move to the turnips doesn’t make sense as Sheehan and Kelleher can be our hookers for the next 10 years. Porter is a good example of a front row player developed in tandem with a leading international; Sheehan can be the same
you don't think what is realistic?
Munster will be targeting him just like they did with Porter, who turned them down in the past, how Leinster work to ensure Sheehan views staying at Leinster to be better for his long term future will be important to retaining him. Leinster cannot rely on blind loyalty to retain players.

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ronk
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by ronk »

Well they have a promising 22 year old hooker so it makes perfect sense that they would try to hire someone ahead of him.

But Munster also have 3 more senior hookers. He’d be moving to facilitate cutting Marshall. If that’s all they want, it’s a huge risk.

Munster have a lower tolerance for inaccurate throwing and would hire someone experienced in a heartbeat

If you’re going to go for a 3 hooker rotation it’s better to be an insider in a place that develops youth (with no one trying to break in)than an outsider somewhere that won’t (& will have a 4th hooker).

Sheehan could make international squads without passing Kelleher. He wouldn’t make any without passing Scannell.

TL;DR Teams have to have at least 3 hookers, Leinster would need to sign one if they lost 1 (in addition to Cronin).

Besides Munster could have had Brian Byrne, they passed.

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

ronk wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:50 pm
Well they have a promising 22 year old hooker so it makes perfect sense that they would try to hire someone ahead of him.

But Munster also have 3 more senior hookers. He’d be moving to facilitate cutting Marshall. If that’s all they want, it’s a huge risk.

Munster have a lower tolerance for inaccurate throwing and would hire someone experienced in a heartbeat

If you’re going to go for a 3 hooker rotation it’s better to be an insider in a place that develops youth (with no one trying to break in)than an outsider somewhere that won’t (& will have a 4th hooker).

Sheehan could make international squads without passing Kelleher. He wouldn’t make any without passing Scannell.

TL;DR Teams have to have at least 3 hookers, Leinster would need to sign one if they lost 1 (in addition to Cronin).

Besides Munster could have had Brian Byrne, they passed.
no on rates Barron, Munster's 22 year old hooker, as better than Sheehan.

Marshall is leaving at the end of this season.

Munster could realistically sell the opportunity to Sheehan of being 1st choice quite quickly at Munster if he made the move, Leinster need to be wise to this and ensure that Sheehan views his long term future is better off at Leinster. They've done this before successfully with players but also have lost some players to these type of Munster approaches as we all know.

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ronk
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by ronk »

mildlyinterested wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:32 pm

you don't think what is realistic?
Munster will be targeting him just like they did with Porter, who turned them down in the past, how Leinster work to ensure Sheehan views staying at Leinster to be better for his long term future will be important to retaining him. Leinster cannot rely on blind loyalty to retain players.
I honestly believe that every player, who believes they have a secure squad place in Leinster, is better off not going to Munster.

Guys like Loughman. He was actually a tidy enough loose head but he was never going to make much of a dent in the depth chart given the situation in front of him. He improved with gametime. I don’t know how much he jumped vs how much he was pushed, either way it was the right move.

Munster come in hard for young Leinster players when they know the player will bolt but they hope to exploit impatience and doubt. I.e. you know you’re making it when Munster try to poach you.

erskinechilders
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by erskinechilders »

I think you're right, why would he leave Leinster? Show me an example of any forward leaving Leinster and being rewarded with multiple Irish caps? ( not withstanding the exception in Beirne )

Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy and multiple others have all arguably regressed since leaving.

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

erskinechilders wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 10:31 pm
I think you're right, why would he leave Leinster? Show me an example of any forward leaving Leinster and being rewarded with multiple Irish caps? ( not withstanding the exception in Beirne )

Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy and multiple others have all arguably regressed since leaving.
it's quite simple, for more game time.. if he believes he will get more game time at Munster than Leinster he could leave.. therefore leinster need to do a good job ensuring that any game time arguments aren't valid by ensuring Sheehan transitions into the leinster strongest 23 sooner rather than later.

IMO it's unlikely he will leave, but i'm certain munster will be targeting him as someone who could be 1st choice for them quite quickly. Leinster have lost a player they didn't want to lose to munster every season in the past three, so you cannot rule it out.

17-18: Joey Carbery
18-19: Nick McCarthy
19-20: Roman Salanoa

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ronk
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by ronk »

mildlyinterested wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:54 pm
ronk wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:50 pm
Well they have a promising 22 year old hooker so it makes perfect sense that they would try to hire someone ahead of him.

But Munster also have 3 more senior hookers. He’d be moving to facilitate cutting Marshall. If that’s all they want, it’s a huge risk.

Munster have a lower tolerance for inaccurate throwing and would hire someone experienced in a heartbeat

If you’re going to go for a 3 hooker rotation it’s better to be an insider in a place that develops youth (with no one trying to break in)than an outsider somewhere that won’t (& will have a 4th hooker).

Sheehan could make international squads without passing Kelleher. He wouldn’t make any without passing Scannell.

TL;DR Teams have to have at least 3 hookers, Leinster would need to sign one if they lost 1 (in addition to Cronin).

Besides Munster could have had Brian Byrne, they passed.
no on rates Barron, Munster's 22 year old hooker, as better than Sheehan.

Marshall is leaving at the end of this season.

Munster could realistically sell the opportunity to Sheehan of being 1st choice quite quickly at Munster if he made the move, Leinster need to be wise to this and ensure that Sheehan views his long term future is better off at Leinster. They've done this before successfully with players but also have lost some players to these type of Munster approaches as we all know.
I agree about a lot of that. That’s why I think it’s important to point out how really awful Munster’s track record is in this area. I expect Sheehan to go to the RWC if he stays (barring injury), I think the odds get longer if he moves. Cronin retiring opens the door wide open at Leinster.

Sheehan is very high upside but he’s not the finished article and there are big risks. He’s tall and needs to develop physically and technically. Munster have put a premium on a different type of hooker for at least 20 years. They’ve all been hard working folk hero’s who could throw straight: Frankie Sheahan, Fogarty x2, Scannell, Flannery, KOB, Sherry, Varley. Not exactly a list of athletes who are primary ball carriers.

Dan Sheehan doesn’t have the brand recognition of Carbery or Beirne, so he comes in down the depth chart and has to fight. But he’d be coming into a tradition that would see him as a Fancy Dan and would be slow to welcome him.

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by hugonaut »

mildlyinterested wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 10:40 pm
erskinechilders wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 10:31 pm
I think you're right, why would he leave Leinster? Show me an example of any forward leaving Leinster and being rewarded with multiple Irish caps? ( not withstanding the exception in Beirne )

Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy and multiple others have all arguably regressed since leaving.
it's quite simple, for more game time.. if he believes he will get more game time at Munster than Leinster he could leave.. therefore leinster need to do a good job ensuring that any game time arguments aren't valid by ensuring Sheehan transitions into the leinster strongest 23 sooner rather than later.

IMO it's unlikely he will leave, but i'm certain munster will be targeting him as someone who could be 1st choice for them quite quickly. Leinster have lost a player they didn't want to lose to munster every season in the past three, so you cannot rule it out.

17-18: Joey Carbery
18-19: Nick McCarthy
19-20: Roman Salanoa
I think that's a very accurate prognosis. The move will be "for the good of Irish rugby" and the usual journalists will write about how players are "starting to move between provinces."

erskinechilders
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by erskinechilders »

I think that narrative might have changed after the last 2 weekends of defeats for Munster. A lot of column inches are now giving out about Munsters' identity and how it has been eroded/ destroyed ( depending on your POV ) by signing non-local players, both from Leinster and South Africa. I think the Jason Jenkins signing has really brought this idea to the fore.

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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by mildlyinterested »

Tracy has extended his contract for 2 more years.

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CiaranIrl
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Re: Hooker options going forward

Post by CiaranIrl »

ronk wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:50 pm
Well they have a promising 22 year old hooker so it makes perfect sense that they would try to hire someone
I'm really enjoying your recently dialed up bitterness Ronk.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”

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