Leinster Squad 20-21

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Oldschool
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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Oldschool »

wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 10:38 am
Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?
Why does the current OH have to be on a central contract is the question you should be asking.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Oldschool »

wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:26 pm
munster#1 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:10 pm

I agree, a one year contract with an option of a second would have been about right, or even have him move to a provincial contract for what ever duration Leinster see fit.

The problem that I envisage is that Farrell will be building his squad around sexton, and is going to want sexton play as many big games as possible to keep him sharp.

As the paymaster the IRFU can simply tell Leo who’s playing in the big games.
If that doesn’t happen and we get to see both or either of the Byrne brothers given every chance to overtake Sexton at Leinster then there is no real issue.

I agree that the players behind are not pushing him, but that doesn’t eliminate the issue that right now Sexton doesn’t appear to be at the level required for Ireland to beat the best, and I doubt that in 2 years time he will suddenly regain form.

But Farrell won't be building his squad around Sexton because he has signed a new two year contract. He'll be doing it because he's our captain and best 10.


The contract part isn't relevant to that. Likewise, whether Sexton is on top form at the moment is another moot point. He is clearly currently our best option.

A two year contract doesn't stop Farrell picking someone else.

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

Keenan, Baird, Connors, Doris, Larmour would all be examples of that.

H.Byrne will get the same treatment.
If Farrell really thinks that Sexton is the best Ireland 10 available then we have a much bigger problem.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by joooooe »

Oldschool wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 3:23 pm
wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:26 pm
munster#1 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:10 pm

I agree, a one year contract with an option of a second would have been about right, or even have him move to a provincial contract for what ever duration Leinster see fit.

The problem that I envisage is that Farrell will be building his squad around sexton, and is going to want sexton play as many big games as possible to keep him sharp.

As the paymaster the IRFU can simply tell Leo who’s playing in the big games.
If that doesn’t happen and we get to see both or either of the Byrne brothers given every chance to overtake Sexton at Leinster then there is no real issue.

I agree that the players behind are not pushing him, but that doesn’t eliminate the issue that right now Sexton doesn’t appear to be at the level required for Ireland to beat the best, and I doubt that in 2 years time he will suddenly regain form.

But Farrell won't be building his squad around Sexton because he has signed a new two year contract. He'll be doing it because he's our captain and best 10.


The contract part isn't relevant to that. Likewise, whether Sexton is on top form at the moment is another moot point. He is clearly currently our best option.

A two year contract doesn't stop Farrell picking someone else.

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

Keenan, Baird, Connors, Doris, Larmour would all be examples of that.

H.Byrne will get the same treatment.
If Farrell really thinks that Sexton is the best Ireland 10 available then we have a much bigger problem.
Who is "the best Ireland 10 available" in your opinion?

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Keith »

wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:35 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:30 pm
Apparently for whatever reasons, Carty and Cooney have received the blackball from Farrell. However, Burns has provided two excellent cameos for Ireland and will do an excellent job if needed. He isn't the ruthless driver than is J10, he doesn't knock down the door, he picks the lock.

Burns can do a job for Ireland but isn't a 90% test match kicker. So give that role to Murray and let's see how we go.
Burns is a nice player who can do a job, but isn't the first cousin of a level test 10 imo (Farrell, Russell, Biggar, Ntamack).

Carbery is but clearly can't be relied on to stay fit.

PJ could've been...

Carty/Madigan are too inconsistent at this stage.

Ross B probably doesn't have the attacking game/athleticism to do it.

H.Byrne and Healy can get there and should be prioritised imo.
I couldn't disagree with this anymore, but obviously would love to be proven wrong. Burns (imo) is every bit as inconsistent as the 10s mentioned above.
EDIT: this reply was meant for RTB.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by wixfjord »

Keith wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 4:28 pm
wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:35 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:30 pm
Apparently for whatever reasons, Carty and Cooney have received the blackball from Farrell. However, Burns has provided two excellent cameos for Ireland and will do an excellent job if needed. He isn't the ruthless driver than is J10, he doesn't knock down the door, he picks the lock.

Burns can do a job for Ireland but isn't a 90% test match kicker. So give that role to Murray and let's see how we go.
Burns is a nice player who can do a job, but isn't the first cousin of a level test 10 imo (Farrell, Russell, Biggar, Ntamack).

Carbery is but clearly can't be relied on to stay fit.

PJ could've been...

Carty/Madigan are too inconsistent at this stage.

Ross B probably doesn't have the attacking game/athleticism to do it.

H.Byrne and Healy can get there and should be prioritised imo.
I couldn't disagree with this anymore, but obviously would love to be proven wrong. Burns (imo) is every bit as inconsistent as the 10s mentioned above.
What do you disagree with?

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Keith »

wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 4:31 pm
Keith wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 4:28 pm
wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:35 pm


Burns is a nice player who can do a job, but isn't the first cousin of a level test 10 imo (Farrell, Russell, Biggar, Ntamack).

Carbery is but clearly can't be relied on to stay fit.

PJ could've been...

Carty/Madigan are too inconsistent at this stage.

Ross B probably doesn't have the attacking game/athleticism to do it.

H.Byrne and Healy can get there and should be prioritised imo.
I couldn't disagree with this anymore, but obviously would love to be proven wrong. Burns (imo) is every bit as inconsistent as the 10s mentioned above.
What do you disagree with?
Sorry the reply was meant for RTD not you.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Oldschool »

joooooe wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 4:26 pm
Oldschool wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 3:23 pm
wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:26 pm



But Farrell won't be building his squad around Sexton because he has signed a new two year contract. He'll be doing it because he's our captain and best 10.


The contract part isn't relevant to that. Likewise, whether Sexton is on top form at the moment is another moot point. He is clearly currently our best option.

A two year contract doesn't stop Farrell picking someone else.

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

Keenan, Baird, Connors, Doris, Larmour would all be examples of that.

H.Byrne will get the same treatment.
If Farrell really thinks that Sexton is the best Ireland 10 available then we have a much bigger problem.
Who is "the best Ireland 10 available" in your opinion?
That Joooooe is the €50k question and probably above my pay grade.
However, taking the Sherlock Holmes approach.
IE "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
A list of the candidates, in no particular order but age, experience, fitness, ability, leadership and current form are some of the criteria to be applied in as Holmes would put it, eliminating candidates.
To avoid unnecessary and argumentive posts it's necessary to advise that the criteria mentioned is not exhaustive, I didn't mention kicking ability or tackling/defensive capability as just two examples.
The list of candidates considered
JJ. Hanrahan
Kealy
Madigan
Carty
Burns
H. Byrne
R. Byrne
Sexton.
The short list of players that could be considered as starters are as follows, again in no particular order.
Madigan
Carty
Burns
R. Byrne
Sexton
However Harry Byrne should be considered for a place in the 23 against both Italy and Scotland.
Process of elimination.
Sexton - recent track record suggests he won't finish the game or come even close to effectively your first choice is on the bench.
It's now a very close call between the remaining four players as to who should start and who should be on the bench.
Ross Byrne is the next one to go. Normally very steady but his form has been poor although improving.
That leaves 3 into 2 won't go but it's extremely close.
Carty to Start with Madigan on bench.
Both are better defenders than Burns and the Welsh OH likes to take on his opposite number.
BTW neither of them will be in the 23.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by backrower8 »

Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by ronk »

backrower8 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:32 pm
Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too
You’d pull Harry Byrne from up to 5 Leinster games for a bench against Italy, in the name of HIS development!?

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Oldschool »

ronk wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 7:17 pm
backrower8 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:32 pm
Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too
You’d pull Harry Byrne from up to 5 Leinster games for a bench against Italy, in the name of HIS development!?
It's Italy for crying out loud, what are you afraid of?
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by FLIP »

Oldschool wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 9:03 pm
ronk wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 7:17 pm
backrower8 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:32 pm
Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too
You’d pull Harry Byrne from up to 5 Leinster games for a bench against Italy, in the name of HIS development!?
It's Italy for crying out loud, what are you afraid of?
The 5 other full games he could have played in during the meantime
Anyone But New Zealand

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by joooooe »

backrower8 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:32 pm
Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too
It really hasn't though. It's you and two or three other posters, one of whom is a Munster fan, trying to hold back tide of support for Sexton. He is not the player he was, and never will be again, but he's so far ahead of the alternatives it's frightening. I don't think he should get a 2 year deal btw and I'm not some mad JS apologist/fan boy, but the alternatives simply aren't available and/or don't exist.

There are people here who genuinely believe Harry Byrne should be in the Ireland camp when he could be playing up to four/five matches for Leinster. Ditto Healy at Munster. You could make an argument for Madigan, but it looks like that ship has sailed. Someone else above shortlisted Hanrahan, immediately undermining the rest of his/her own argument.

We get it. You want to replace Sexton, preferably with someone you've known since their Junior Cup days. That's your opinion and frankly it's not far off my own. But don't twist facts and say this forum has become "how do we replace him ASAP". Please.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by backrower8 »

And you were doing so well until the mask slipped to show your pernicious side, which does you no favours.

I don’t know any current squad members personally and haven’t said what you attribute to me.

Matches are what H.Byrne needs more than national squad time. But, as I said, minutes off the bench against Italy would be an important accelerator and a no-brainer.

There has been a shift here in recent months among considerably more people than that. Most here resisted progressing a transition, now options for that imperative are being talked about. Good evening.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Oldschool »

joooooe wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 11:04 pm
backrower8 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:32 pm
Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too
It really hasn't though. It's you and two or three other posters, one of whom is a Munster fan, trying to hold back tide of support for Sexton. He is not the player he was, and never will be again, but he's so far ahead of the alternatives it's frightening. I don't think he should get a 2 year deal btw and I'm not some mad JS apologist/fan boy, but the alternatives simply aren't available and/or don't exist.

There are people here who genuinely believe Harry Byrne should be in the Ireland camp when he could be playing up to four/five matches for Leinster. Ditto Healy at Munster. You could make an argument for Madigan, but it looks like that ship has sailed. Someone else above shortlisted Hanrahan, immediately undermining the rest of his/her own argument.

We get it. You want to replace Sexton, preferably with someone you've known since their Junior Cup days. That's your opinion and frankly it's not far off my own. But don't twist facts and say this forum has become "how do we replace him ASAP". Please.
For the record I didn't short list Hanrahan, I included him a longer list which basically included all the players who have played at OH for the provinces this season.
Hanrahan wasn't then shortlisted.
Aside from the above would you pick Harry Byrne in the the 23 to play Italy, bearing in mind that he doesn't have to be in the 6Ns for the whole of the championship.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by ronk »

There are 3 out halves in the Ireland squad. Guys who have been pulled from club duty.

Harry won’t be training with Ireland and bubbles make it less practical to parachute someone in unnecessarily.

It’s really impractical now and a summer tour makes a lot more sense. It’s also a blink in the eye for long term development.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by joooooe »

Oldschool wrote:
February 5th, 2021, 8:58 am
joooooe wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 11:04 pm
backrower8 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:32 pm
Fascinating to see that this forum has moved from “hands off our Johnny the GOAT!” to “he is our best 10 but how do we replace him ASAP?” In just a few short months.

Farrell needs to roll the dice and invest in the future this 6N with a bench slot for Harry Byrne against Italy as a minimum. N’tamack, Jalibert, Wilkinson, Carter, our Joey, all got proper access at or before the same age as HB.

Fortune favours the brave.

PS - Ringer is a 90%+ goal kicker too
It really hasn't though. It's you and two or three other posters, one of whom is a Munster fan, trying to hold back tide of support for Sexton. He is not the player he was, and never will be again, but he's so far ahead of the alternatives it's frightening. I don't think he should get a 2 year deal btw and I'm not some mad JS apologist/fan boy, but the alternatives simply aren't available and/or don't exist.

There are people here who genuinely believe Harry Byrne should be in the Ireland camp when he could be playing up to four/five matches for Leinster. Ditto Healy at Munster. You could make an argument for Madigan, but it looks like that ship has sailed. Someone else above shortlisted Hanrahan, immediately undermining the rest of his/her own argument.

We get it. You want to replace Sexton, preferably with someone you've known since their Junior Cup days. That's your opinion and frankly it's not far off my own. But don't twist facts and say this forum has become "how do we replace him ASAP". Please.
For the record I didn't short list Hanrahan, I included him a longer list which basically included all the players who have played at OH for the provinces this season.
Hanrahan wasn't then shortlisted.
Aside from the above would you pick Harry Byrne in the the 23 to play Italy, bearing in mind that he doesn't have to be in the 6Ns for the whole of the championship.
Personally, I wouldn't. For three reasons: 1. He may not be ready and has never demonstrated against a top side that he could be. 2. I understand that it is more difficult than usual to move players in and out of the national squad bubble. 3. (which is related to 2) He will be better served at Leinster playing that week and the matches either side of it, which would not be an option if he played for Ireland. Even then, what would he get – 20 minutes against a tired Italy? Is that really better than 80 minutes against Glasgow and Ulster (and Dragons)?

All that said, I wouldn't be disappointed if he was. I don't have very strong feelings on the issue.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by mildlyinterested »

Ed Byrne pictured training with Ireland today.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by Jonny tight lips »

Oldschool wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 3:23 pm
wixfjord wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:26 pm
munster#1 wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 12:10 pm

I agree, a one year contract with an option of a second would have been about right, or even have him move to a provincial contract for what ever duration Leinster see fit.

The problem that I envisage is that Farrell will be building his squad around sexton, and is going to want sexton play as many big games as possible to keep him sharp.

As the paymaster the IRFU can simply tell Leo who’s playing in the big games.
If that doesn’t happen and we get to see both or either of the Byrne brothers given every chance to overtake Sexton at Leinster then there is no real issue.

I agree that the players behind are not pushing him, but that doesn’t eliminate the issue that right now Sexton doesn’t appear to be at the level required for Ireland to beat the best, and I doubt that in 2 years time he will suddenly regain form.

But Farrell won't be building his squad around Sexton because he has signed a new two year contract. He'll be doing it because he's our captain and best 10.


The contract part isn't relevant to that. Likewise, whether Sexton is on top form at the moment is another moot point. He is clearly currently our best option.

A two year contract doesn't stop Farrell picking someone else.

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

Keenan, Baird, Connors, Doris, Larmour would all be examples of that.

H.Byrne will get the same treatment.
If Farrell really thinks that Sexton is the best Ireland 10 available then we have a much bigger problem.
Who better than? Sexton is number one at Leinster, when we played Ulster I don’t remember being impressed by Burns particularly in the final. We just beat Munster for the 9th time in our last 10 games where I doubt you would say JJ stood out. Carty seems to do well at pro 14 but I’m not seeing him stand out in Europe or his team getting results. Judas Carbury may never play again for all we know.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by goforward »

a lot of very short memories on here regarding Ross Byrne and his status as a more than credible contender for Ireland and Leinster first choice 10 at this juncture. The 25 year old has 95 Leinster caps and 595 points which is a fair bit more than JS had at the same age. Ross also has started far more games for Leinster than JS over the past 3 seasons. Not many games have been lost when Ross has been playing. A lot of big games have been won in Europe and Pro 14 when he has played. How can any contender prove his mettle at test level if chances are not given by coaches. It is such a short-sighted strategy not to have developed a second 10 with an ample number of caps for the National team in the way Leinster have.

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Re: Leinster Squad 20-21

Post by wixfjord »

goforward wrote:
February 5th, 2021, 3:30 pm
a lot of very short memories on here regarding Ross Byrne and his status as a more than credible contender for Ireland and Leinster first choice 10 at this juncture. The 25 year old has 95 Leinster caps and 595 points which is a fair bit more than JS had at the same age. Ross also has started far more games for Leinster than JS over the past 3 seasons. Not many games have been lost when Ross has been playing. A lot of big games have been won in Europe and Pro 14 when he has played. How can any contender prove his mettle at test level if chances are not given by coaches. It is such a short-sighted strategy not to have developed a second 10 with an ample number of caps for the National team in the way Leinster have.
I don't think anyone is forgetting that at all. He has been brilliant in blue.

But I also don't think that even the most avid Leinster fan would say Ross has shown the athleticism or attacking game to be a test level 10.

If he had've shown a bit more of that in his 10+ appearances so far then he would be the clear contender.

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