Pack size problems moving forward?

[mildlyinterested]

Same goes for Baird/Ryan, Leinster are extremely unlikely to sign someone who will play in front of them once Toner/Fardy leave. They will either have to sink or swim as a pair.

Zero chance of Leinster signing an NIQ after Fardy, and rightly so. We are stacked in the second row at academy/development level. We have literally never had more home grown talent in this position. Ryan Baird, Jack Dunne, Charlie Ryan, Brian Deeny – and McCarthy coming into the academy for next season – all of them under 21 or younger. Charlie Ryan and Deeny were two-year U20 internationals, McCarthy will be, and the only reason Baird and Dunne weren't was because they were still in school as U19s. None of them under 198cm, the lightest of them at 108kg ... and they're kids.

We will need five second rows in the senior squad. It's a 27 game regular season at the moment [21 league + 6 cup] and Leinster really have to budget for 30 games, i.e. reaching semi-final in each competition. That makes 90 lock spots/season [(2 starters +1 sub) x 30 games]. JR is going to be playing 15-16 games max. per season, which leaves 74-75 spots/season. Three other locks aren't going to cover 25 games each, especially with Baird on the doorstep of the international set-up already. With four other locks you're looking at 18-19 games each, which is enough to sustain a player, and doesn't even take into account injuries, or the presence of Ross Molony.

Our biggest problem is going to be keeping them, because James Ryan is going to hold his jersey for another decade. That limits opportunities for starts in the biggest games. Realistically these lads have come into the organisation in such a short space of time that at least one of them is going to be dissatisfied with his rate of progress compared to his contemporaries.

But to be frank we've hit a real motherlode - so many players in such a short space of time who have great height, serious athleticism and can play. I'm really confident and positive about all of these players, I think we're really well set.

It's a difficult one right, but i'd maybe lean toward being okay if CRyan left given his is the least athletic of that group and therefore has the least potential.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the coming months, given the uncertainty over the future.

Deeny is an interesting players, sort of emerged from nowhere last season has went from a potential blindside/number 8 as a u19 to looking like pure 2nd row as he physically matures. Coming from a club background he is a good bit rawer than the michaels/rock lads in the academy along with him but given his quick progress to date since switching his focus from GAA to rugby you'd wonder what type of player he will be in 2 years.

[mildlyinterested]

Loosehead is interesting, Leinster had all three U20 props this season in Marcus Hanan(Clane), Harry Noonan(Greystones) & Charlie Ward(Tullow). Ward's gone west after not getting a leinster offer, following Jordan Duggan(Newbridge). Hanan you'd assume will be around the academy squad upon their return to training, can he impress enough to get a contract?

Next years 20's will almost certainly feature one leinster loosehead if not multiple:

Jack Boyle(St. Michaels)(u19)

Show Spoiler:

Hugo O'Malley(Blackrock)(u20)

Show Spoiler:

Aaron Rowan(Blackrock)(u20)

Show Spoiler:

Ben Popplewell(Wexford)(u19)

Show Spoiler:

Boyle's the youngest of those 4 by a few months, also probably the most talented but maybe the smallest. Hopefully he fills out well in the sub-academy. O'Malley played TH for Rock but was starting for Leinster u19 last summer at loose. Rowan played 8 for Rock, but played loose this season before and was due to be in an irish squad this easter as a prop. Popplewell was in ireland u18 squads this season.

[ronk]

Same goes for Baird/Ryan, Leinster are extremely unlikely to sign someone who will play in front of them once Toner/Fardy leave. They will either have to sink or swim as a pair.

Zero chance of Leinster signing an NIQ after Fardy, and rightly so. We are stacked in the second row at academy/development level. We have literally never had more home grown talent in this position. Ryan Baird, Jack Dunne, Charlie Ryan, Brian Deeny – and McCarthy coming into the academy for next season – all of them under 21 or younger. Charlie Ryan and Deeny were two-year U20 internationals, McCarthy will be, and the only reason Baird and Dunne weren't was because they were still in school as U19s. None of them under 198cm, the lightest of them at 108kg ... and they're kids.

We will need five second rows in the senior squad. It's a 27 game regular season at the moment [21 league + 6 cup] and Leinster really have to budget for 30 games, i.e. reaching semi-final in each competition. That makes 90 lock spots/season [(2 starters +1 sub) x 30 games]. JR is going to be playing 15-16 games max. per season, which leaves 74-75 spots/season. Three other locks aren't going to cover 25 games each, especially with Baird on the doorstep of the international set-up already. With four other locks you're looking at 18-19 games each, which is enough to sustain a player, and doesn't even take into account injuries, or the presence of Ross Molony.

Our biggest problem is going to be keeping them, because James Ryan is going to hold his jersey for another decade. That limits opportunities for starts in the biggest games. Realistically these lads have come into the organisation in such a short space of time that at least one of them is going to be dissatisfied with his rate of progress compared to his contemporaries.

But to be frank we've hit a real motherlode - so many players in such a short space of time who have great height, serious athleticism and can play. I'm really confident and positive about all of these players, I think we're really well set.

It might not be unrealistic to add about 1/3 of the calendar (10 more games) as games where a lock plays in the backrow, especially if we have a lot of depth there. Also, if the talent achieves its potential we should expect more than just James Ryan away with Ireland.

[Dwarf]

Josh M hasn't shown he is capable of being an enforcer at the top level, lacks that top end ability for me.

Enforcer - No. But he is abrasive and very physical. What he lacks in brute force he makes up for in footballing ability and he makes a very good PRO14 if not European blindside.

[mildlyinterested]

Josh M hasn't shown he is capable of being an enforcer at the top level, lacks that top end ability for me.

Enforcer - No. But he is abrasive and very physical. What he lacks in brute force he makes up for in footballing ability and he makes a very good PRO14 if not European blindside.

not so sure about that, wouldn't exactly think of him for his ability on the ball.

[leinsterforever]

Same goes for Baird/Ryan, Leinster are extremely unlikely to sign someone who will play in front of them once Toner/Fardy leave. They will either have to sink or swim as a pair.

Zero chance of Leinster signing an NIQ after Fardy, and rightly so. We are stacked in the second row at academy/development level. We have literally never had more home grown talent in this position. Ryan Baird, Jack Dunne, Charlie Ryan, Brian Deeny – and McCarthy coming into the academy for next season – all of them under 21 or younger. Charlie Ryan and Deeny were two-year U20 internationals, McCarthy will be, and the only reason Baird and Dunne weren't was because they were still in school as U19s. None of them under 198cm, the lightest of them at 108kg ... and they're kids.

We will need five second rows in the senior squad. It's a 27 game regular season at the moment [21 league + 6 cup] and Leinster really have to budget for 30 games, i.e. reaching semi-final in each competition. That makes 90 lock spots/season [(2 starters +1 sub) x 30 games]. JR is going to be playing 15-16 games max. per season, which leaves 74-75 spots/season. Three other locks aren't going to cover 25 games each, especially with Baird on the doorstep of the international set-up already. With four other locks you're looking at 18-19 games each, which is enough to sustain a player, and doesn't even take into account injuries, or the presence of Ross Molony.

Our biggest problem is going to be keeping them, because James Ryan is going to hold his jersey for another decade. That limits opportunities for starts in the biggest games. Realistically these lads have come into the organisation in such a short space of time that at least one of them is going to be dissatisfied with his rate of progress compared to his contemporaries.

But to be frank we've hit a real motherlode - so many players in such a short space of time who have great height, serious athleticism and can play. I'm really confident and positive about all of these players, I think we're really well set.

It's a difficult one right, but i'd maybe lean toward being okay if CRyan left given his is the least athletic of that group and therefore has the least potential.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the coming months, given the uncertainty over the future.

Deeny is an interesting players, sort of emerged from nowhere last season has went from a potential blindside/number 8 as a u19 to looking like pure 2nd row as he physically matures. Coming from a club background he is a good bit rawer than the michaels/rock lads in the academy along with him but given his quick progress to date since switching his focus from GAA to rugby you'd wonder what type of player he will be in 2 years.

Charlie Ryan may be the least athletic, but his ability to play the role of jumper lock and pusher lock could make him a pretty valuable asset because it means you could pair him with any other type of lock and still have a balanced partnership.

Will Baird end up at 6 for Ireland with Ahern and James Ryan in the row?

[ronk]

Josh M hasn't shown he is capable of being an enforcer at the top level, lacks that top end ability for me.

Enforcer - No. But he is abrasive and very physical. What he lacks in brute force he makes up for in footballing ability and he makes a very good PRO14 if not European blindside.

Enforcer isn’t a great term for the modern game. Jennings and Cullen were the tough backbone for us but they weren’t so much enforcers in the sense per this thread.

We play a system (Joe was a big fan) where we keep 15 on the pitch if we can. We’re a tough team but we don’t have or tolerate any scumbags looking to deliver cheap shots off the ball. That’s how we lose, not how we win.

Murphy doesn’t have a highlights reel on rugbydump, but that’s not his job.

[mildlyinterested]

Josh M hasn't shown he is capable of being an enforcer at the top level, lacks that top end ability for me.

Enforcer - No. But he is abrasive and very physical. What he lacks in brute force he makes up for in footballing ability and he makes a very good PRO14 if not European blindside.

Enforcer isn’t a great term for the modern game. Jennings and Cullen were the tough backbone for us but they weren’t so much enforcers in the sense per this thread.

We play a system (Joe was a big fan) where we keep 15 on the pitch if we can. We’re a tough team but we don’t have or tolerate any scumbags looking to deliver cheap shots off the ball. That’s how we lose, not how we win.

Murphy doesn’t have a highlights reel on rugbydump, but that’s not his job.

Enforcer for me at least in this thread has nothing to do with dirtiness and all about being physically dominant and powerful in attack and defence. Murphy is not capable of that at the highest level for me.

[hugonaut]

Josh M hasn't shown he is capable of being an enforcer at the top level, lacks that top end ability for me.

Enforcer - No. But he is abrasive and very physical. What he lacks in brute force he makes up for in footballing ability and he makes a very good PRO14 if not European blindside.

Enforcer isn’t a great term for the modern game. Jennings and Cullen were the tough backbone for us but they weren’t so much enforcers in the sense per this thread.

We play a system (Joe was a big fan) where we keep 15 on the pitch if we can. We’re a tough team but we don’t have or tolerate any scumbags looking to deliver cheap shots off the ball. That’s how we lose, not how we win.

Murphy doesn’t have a highlights reel on rugbydump, but that’s not his job.

I agree. From my perspective in the contemporary game it is more about a mindset rather than a job description. You want your players to be very competitive and physically tough, and you need a fair share who have very forceful personalities and don't shy away from confrontation.

But you get sent off and banned for weeks these days if you throw a punch, and there's so many cameras around the pitch that if you throw one, you'll be caught. You're not enforcing anything if you're not on the pitch. That Llanelli lock Sam Lousi threw one against Munster and got a straight red. I can't think of another connecting punch I saw all season. A couple of Munster players were hanging off him after the whistle and trying to get a rise out of him, and in my opinion the lads doing that were looking for trouble ... and got what they asked for. But your man gets a straight red and a five week ban. The tariff on it is massive compared to what it used to be even 10 years ago.

For me, it's the mentality you're looking for rather than necessarily size or jersey grabbing or throwing pucks. We need our players to be focused, disciplined and ruthless. You need guys who don't get cowed under any circumstances and find a way to impose themselves on the game. You need some forwards who can be a bully when they see a weakness. I think Fardy is a good example. He brings a lot to the squad outside of excellent performances. Jenno brought the same characteristics.

James Ryan is well on the road to being a massive leader to us. He's got a ruthless streak. He was absolutely blitzing lads at the breakdown against England when the rest of the lads in green jerseys were losing collisions left right and centre, getting bullied. He was right on the borderline of getting pinged for dangerous play with a couple of clear-outs. He was physically setting a marker for his team-mates in the pack, and he was the youngest Irish forward on the pitch by a distance. In terms of physical leadership we are sorted with him. He's only going to become a more dominant personality.

Aside from him, Leavy likes to mix it up. Josh Murphy is a tough guy. Ross Molony is growing well into a leadership role, he's a no-nonsense personality. James Lowe is very combative. Sexton is obviously the most competitive man in Irish rugby, never takes a step back. Young Tom Clarkson is tough and competitive and has a mean streak. From what I've heard anecdotally Martin Molony is flat-out reckless - he's like a stunt man in training, just launches his body at the problem. Tommy O'Brien has a great mentality, a winner. Henshaw always sticks in the game and relishes a challenge - https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/watc ... olo/599725

[neiliog93]

I broadly agree with you - the days of forwards getting away with throwing digs are long over.

I do think that Schmidt's teams were almost too disciplined at times, and not in the obvious sense that the game plan was too structured and prescribed. I mean more in the sense that we were too afraid of giving away penalties - our defensive line was obsessively onside, while most opponents' defensive lines lived offside and broadly got away with it (one of the main blights on modern rugby IMO). We didn't try to spoil the ball enough at breakdowns. We could have done with a couple of forwards who tested the boundaries in those ways.

On the second row size thing, I agree with mildly - namely that an enforcer in 2020 is basically a very big, powerful unit of a second row who cam dominate the tight collisions, not a brawler. For example, Will Skelton to my knowledge has never been in a proper fight on a rugby pitch, i.e. one with clean punches thrown.

[Pilotman123]

[/quote]Aside from him, Leavy likes to mix it up. Josh Murphy is a tough guy. Ross Molony is growing well into a leadership role, he's a no-nonsense personality. James Lowe is very combative. Sexton is obviously the most competitive man in Irish rugby, never takes a step back. Young Tom Clarkson is tough and competitive and has a mean streak. From what I've heard anecdotally Martin Molony is flat-out reckless - he's like a stunt man in training, just launches his body at the problem. Tommy O'Brien has a great mentality, a winner. Henshaw always sticks in the game and relishes a challenge - https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/watc ... olo/599725[/quote]

If Tommy O’Brien is a winner then how come he doesn’t have any Senior Cup medals and never won any Trophies for Ireland u20s?

[ronk]

No one throws digs anymore, you live for late tackles and smashing someone getting up at the edge of a ruck. And we don’t bother with that either.

Great clip btw Hugo, some big hits going in and a really lovely one from Ryan to force the knock after a bad, bad missed touch that was quickly forgotten about.

We played against the biggest of the big teams (probably the most powerful club sides ever) and we usually did ok. Even the 19 final could have gone differently, they had 7 players who made 18 or more tackles. We were missing a fair few players and carrying guys with niggles. SOB, Toner and McGrath all missed the RWC.

[neiliog93]

No one throws digs anymore, you live for late tackles and smashing someone getting up at the edge of a ruck. And we don’t bother with that either.

Great clip btw Hugo, some big hits going in and a really lovely one from Ryan to force the knock after a bad, bad missed touch that was quickly forgotten about.

We played against the biggest of the big teams (probably the most powerful club sides ever) and we usually did ok. Even the 19 final could have gone differently, they had 7 players who made 18 or more tackles. We were missing a fair few players and carrying guys with niggles. SOB, Toner and McGrath all missed the RWC.

We did cope well against some of the most powerful club sides ever, that's true. But in Saracens in 2019 were the most powerful club side ever and despite a valiant effort, we were eventually found wanting. No shame in it but we might have stood a better chance if we had had a giant beast of a second-row; even ignoring that one match, more generally I think our team could objectively be improved by having one such second-row in that mould.

[mildlyinterested]

Did we have a pack size problem last season? probably not, but we did miss Leavy massively in the final and carrying an unfit SOB and a diminished McGrath didn't help either.

Could we have a pack size problem going forward? It's possible although unlikely, with the biggest question marks probably at loosehead and openside and I guess TH lock, if you feel a combo of Baird/Ryan may be too light. I was surprised to see Ryan say he usually plays at 112, i'd have thought he'd have been heavier.

[ronk]

No one throws digs anymore, you live for late tackles and smashing someone getting up at the edge of a ruck. And we don’t bother with that either.

Great clip btw Hugo, some big hits going in and a really lovely one from Ryan to force the knock after a bad, bad missed touch that was quickly forgotten about.

We played against the biggest of the big teams (probably the most powerful club sides ever) and we usually did ok. Even the 19 final could have gone differently, they had 7 players who made 18 or more tackles. We were missing a fair few players and carrying guys with niggles. SOB, Toner and McGrath all missed the RWC.

We did cope well against some of the most powerful club sides ever, that's true. But in Saracens in 2019 were the most powerful club side ever and despite a valiant effort, we were eventually found wanting. No shame in it but we might have stood a better chance if we had had a giant beast of a second-row; even ignoring that one match, more generally I think our team could objectively be improved by having one such second-row in that mould.

Absolutely, though there are at least 15 ways to improve a team. Since then, I think we have improved without making signings or adding bulk. They have lost players, and when it came to players they will rebuild without Kruis and a Skelton were early to leave. They kept their skills players and let the giants leave.

[leinsterforever]

Did we have a pack size problem last season? probably not, but we did miss Leavy massively in the final and carrying an unfit SOB and a diminished McGrath didn't help either.

Could we have a pack size problem going forward? It's possible although unlikely, with the biggest question marks probably at loosehead and openside and I guess TH lock, if you feel a combo of Baird/Ryan may be too light. I was surprised to see Ryan say he usually plays at 112, i'd have thought he'd have been heavier.

Openside? A lot of the best opensides weigh in at around 105kg, or even a bit under. I think it should be the rest of the pack bringing the weight, and the 7 bringing the smarts. It's a bonus obviously if you've got a guy like Leavy with a real physical edge, but that isn't necessarily the same as being big and heavy. I think Leinster have Leavy down as being marginally lighter than JvdF actually, although you can't rely on those stats tbf. JR is 106.82kg according to his Leinster profile!

[mildlyinterested]

Did we have a pack size problem last season? probably not, but we did miss Leavy massively in the final and carrying an unfit SOB and a diminished McGrath didn't help either.

Could we have a pack size problem going forward? It's possible although unlikely, with the biggest question marks probably at loosehead and openside and I guess TH lock, if you feel a combo of Baird/Ryan may be too light. I was surprised to see Ryan say he usually plays at 112, i'd have thought he'd have been heavier.

Openside? A lot of the best opensides weigh in at around 105kg, or even a bit under. I think it should be the rest of the pack bringing the weight, and the 7 bringing the smarts. It's a bonus obviously if you've got a guy like Leavy with a real physical edge, but that isn't necessarily the same as being big and heavy. I think Leinster have Leavy down as being marginally lighter than JvdF actually, although you can't rely on those stats tbf. JR is 106.82kg according to his Leinster profile!

I meant the physical edge when it comes to 7, JVDF doesn't have that Leavy/SOB top level physicality in contact. Few do. Do Connors/Penny?

Again that may not be needed if you have 7 other players in the pack who have that physical edge and power.

[Dwarf]

The bench mark as to whether our forwards are physically big enough will come in the 6 Nations against England next season. Moreover, it will be a bench mark as to our smarts also. The amount of absolute sh!t housery England got away with this year I don’t think I’ve ever seen in a modern game before.

It’s true you can make up for a lack of size by engaging in sledging and cheating but the way some of our players were made look soft was embarrassing. I’m thinking Porter getting humiliated by Genge in the scrum. Technique makes up for a lack of size as does stamina. Dictate the pace the game is played at, keep the ball in play for multiple phases and tire out the opposition. You don’t have to defeat the likes of Toulouse or Sarries physically look at what Wales did to England in this years six nations. They ran them around.

In the meantime get the front 5 prospects on a Toulouse eating plan.

[Dwarf]

Did we have a pack size problem last season? probably not, but we did miss Leavy massively in the final and carrying an unfit SOB and a diminished McGrath didn't help either.

Could we have a pack size problem going forward? It's possible although unlikely, with the biggest question marks probably at loosehead and openside and I guess TH lock, if you feel a combo of Baird/Ryan may be too light. I was surprised to see Ryan say he usually plays at 112, i'd have thought he'd have been heavier.

Openside? A lot of the best opensides weigh in at around 105kg, or even a bit under. I think it should be the rest of the pack bringing the weight, and the 7 bringing the smarts. It's a bonus obviously if you've got a guy like Leavy with a real physical edge, but that isn't necessarily the same as being big and heavy. I think Leinster have Leavy down as being marginally lighter than JvdF actually, although you can't rely on those stats tbf. JR is 106.82kg according to his Leinster profile!

I meant the physical edge when it comes to 7, JVDF doesn't have that Leavy/SOB top level physicality in contact. Few do. Do Connors/Penny?

Again that may not be needed if you have 7 other players in the pack who have that physical edge and power.

JVDF put in 2 physical performances against Lyon away and Northampton away two brute force and imposing teams. He didn’t lack the physical edge to excel in those games. He not only excelled he got MOTM in both games. That’s when he went from average European player into international standard for me if he wasn’t already at that level.

[neiliog93]

VDF is excellent at Heineken Cup level and well able to compete at international level, but against the top and most physical international teams he does look somewhat underpowered, even for a 7. He is a similar height and weight to Sam Underhill but the latter is just more powerful at that size (in other words, it's not necessarily a size problem, but a natural athleticism/strength one). To be fair though, VDF does have an obscene work-rate, one of the best ever in that regard probably.