Pack size problems moving forward?

[Pilotman123]

Anyone else coming through the academy in the pack with that top level size and physicality?

Milne seems to be a bit of a bruiser?

Liam Turner has to be the strongest back in Leinster rugby, he’s also has All Ireland medals in 100m sprints and has overall huge muscle mass and weighs about 95kg (an extra 6kg since he entered the Leinster Academy). He benches 155kg and squats 200kg. Only thing lacking is his height (he’s about 5’7 and a half). Heard David Hawkshaw has packed on some serious size since his injury as well

[ronk]

I think Cronin will leave at the end of this season (will be 35 and seems to be out of the picture with Ireland), either retiring or getting a final bigger pay package abroad. We might need a hooker then, especially if Bryan Byrne is gone. Tracy is 29 now and is grand for the Pro 14 and even the earlier rounds of the H Cup, but is underpowered in the furnace of H Cup knockout games. Others have said it before but I like the look of Dweba at the Cheehtahs, not a SA international and not very high profile/expensive either.

Bordeaux have signed him.

Source? Also, signed him from 2021-22 onwards or 2020-21?..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _transfers

[ronk]

I think Cronin will leave at the end of this season (will be 35 and seems to be out of the picture with Ireland), either retiring or getting a final bigger pay package abroad. We might need a hooker then, especially if Bryan Byrne is gone. Tracy is 29 now and is grand for the Pro 14 and even the earlier rounds of the H Cup, but is underpowered in the furnace of H Cup knockout games. Others have said it before but I like the look of Dweba at the Cheehtahs, not a SA international and not very high profile/expensive either.

Dweba was never going to be a backup for us. All signs at the moment indicate that Kelleher is the guy and he has time to develop that he might not need.

If we make a signing in a year or two, barring major injuries, it will be at squad level not starter.

[neiliog93]

I think Cronin will leave at the end of this season (will be 35 and seems to be out of the picture with Ireland), either retiring or getting a final bigger pay package abroad. We might need a hooker then, especially if Bryan Byrne is gone. Tracy is 29 now and is grand for the Pro 14 and even the earlier rounds of the H Cup, but is underpowered in the furnace of H Cup knockout games. Others have said it before but I like the look of Dweba at the Cheehtahs, not a SA international and not very high profile/expensive either.

Dweba was never going to be a backup for us. All signs at the moment indicate that Kelleher is the guy and he has time to develop that he might not need.

If we make a signing in a year or two, barring major injuries, it will be at squad level not starter.

Considering that rugby is a 23-man game and that Kelleher would be away a lot with internationals, I think having a guy of Dweba's calibre would be ok.

[neiliog93]

Anyone else coming through the academy in the pack with that top level size and physicality?

Milne seems to be a bit of a bruiser?

Liam Turner has to be the strongest back in Leinster rugby, he’s also has All Ireland medals in 100m sprints and has overall huge muscle mass and weighs about 95kg (an extra 6kg since he entered the Leinster Academy). He benches 155kg and squats 200kg. Only thing lacking is his height (he’s about 5’7 and a half). Heard David Hawkshaw has packed on some serious size since his injury as well

His ultimate rugby and wiki page list him at 105kg...even if he's 95kg that's a seriously big weight for a guy who's both short and lean.

Also, if those gym numbers are true, they're outrageous for a 20 yr old outside back (especially the bench press). I remember Jake White saying 140kg was the expected minimum bench press one-rep max of a South African back row in his time, and 150kg is the figure forwards are expected to get at Saracens nowadays.

Though it's slightly worrying how quickly he seems to have gained those extra kgs during lockdown.

[mildlyinterested]

Leinster won't be signing a hooker. Kelleher will soon be 1st choice for ireland and Dan Sheehan is highly rated. Cronin is probably in his final season and Tracy will stick around as a squad player.

[mildlyinterested]

At LH Prop, you have Peter Dooley(26), Ed Byrne(27) and Michael Milne(21) but Jack Boyle's(U19) performances and potential can't be ignored, he is very young for a prop of course but could be ready for pro rugby in 2 years when Cian Healy(33) will likely be finally near to calling it a day.

At TH Prop, you have Tadgh Furlong(28) and Andrew Porter(24) with Tom Clarkson(20) coming through and Vakh Abaladaze(24) kicking around the squad too. Rory McGuire(U19)/Ben Griffin(U20) are two physical specimens coming through schools rugby.

At Hooker, you have Ronan Kelleher(22), James Tracy(29) and Dan Sheehan(22). Lee Barron(U20) has been coming through the system and is highly rated.

At TH Lock, James Ryan(24) obviously the incumbent here for leinster and ireland. Jack Dunne(22) & Charlie Ryan(21) are coming through slowly. With someone like Joe McCarthy(U20) showing promising physicality at U20 level, if a bit raw.

At LH Lock, you have Ross Molony(26) who has a lot of senior experience, along with Ryan Baird(21) who had emerged this season. Brian Deeny(20) is coming through the academy from a club background.

At Blindside, you have an outstanding potential prospect joining academy in Alex Soroka(U20), along with another very good one in SOB(20). Josh Murphy(25) is kicking around the squad while those players mature and Dan Leavy(26) could settle he long term if he recovers from injury as expected.

At Openside, you have JVDF(27), Will Connors(24), Scott Penny(21) and Martin Moloney(21). Dan Leavy(26) and Max Deegan(24) are options are here too.

At Number, you have Jack Conan(28), Max Deegan(24) and Caelan Doris(22). Will Hickey(U20) & Donough Lawlor(U19) are two underage 8's coming through to watch out for, Hickey could move to 6/7 after school though.

[riocard911]

Could Tadhg McEvoy force his way back into the picture at 2? Since returning from Saracens he's been playing for 'Tarf, which I was hoping would be a springboard back into the reckoning at Leinster. Anyone know how his playing career was going before the covid interruption?

[mildlyinterested]

Could Tadhg McEvoy force his way back into the picture at 2? Since returning from Saracens he's been playing for 'Tarf, which I was hoping would be a springboard back into the reckoning at Leinster. Anyone know how his playing career was going before the covid interruption?

Can't see that happening no.

McElroy was largely on the bench for Tarf.

[Workhorse]

Though it's slightly worrying how quickly he seems to have gained those extra kgs during lockdown.

Just to clear it up nobody has said anything about anyone gaining weight during lockdown. Many players though would be on a bulking program because the off season is when you add that weight on.

I think there's a lot of confusion here over power and mass. Healy and Dooley are similar enough in weight though Healy is more powerful which is what sets him apart. Toner while physically a lot bigger than the other second rows we have is sort of the exception that proves the rule in that in Ireland we just don't tend to produce people that tall, he's also not very powerful but sheer mass sees him over the gain line while someone like Baird looks like he'll be more powerful so the overall difference between the two might not end up being that big.

I don't get the obsession with getting someone in seemingly for the sake of it, we don't need a foreign hooker with all the options we have coming through and same for second row. Maybe if some of the hookers don't develop as hoped we might need a stop gap then but we should at least wait and see and not rush into getting someone in when they might not be needed

[wixfjord]

I don't think it's 'getting someone in for the sake of it', more that if you project forward and look at our potential starting pack 3 years down the line, it looks incredibly talented, but for certain games might be a little bit light (both in power and weight).

Now there are many ways we can solve that (if the coaches feel it does need to be solved) one of which might be bringing in a big skilful lump (Skelton, Snyman, Tuipulotu) at LH, HK or SR.

For example, a second row with Ryan and Baird is mouthwatering, but it might also be underpowered for facing top level packs. So we might need to plan around that.

[mildlyinterested]

I don't think so, it may weigh less with Toner gone but it would be more powerful and athletic.

Plus you'd assume as Ryan ages he may put on a few more kg's.

Dunne/CRyan are both prototypical TH locks too, so in 3 years time one may be ready to play 5 with Ryan shifting across and Baird at 6.

[Workhorse]

I don't think it's 'getting someone in for the sake of it', more that if you project forward and look at our potential starting pack 3 years down the line, it looks incredibly talented, but for certain games might be a little bit light (both in power and weight).

Now there are many ways we can solve that (if the coaches feel it does need to be solved) one of which might be bringing in a big skilful lump (Skelton, Snyman, Tuipulotu) at LH, HK or SR.

For example, a second row with Ryan and Baird is mouthwatering, but it might also be underpowered for facing top level packs. So we might need to plan around that.

Why get that person in before you know they're needed though? What if you brought in Snyman and gave him a big sack of cash for his trouble then Baird and Ryan proved to be plenty powerful? What then? All you've got is this lad who is a great player no doubt but is the extra quality he brings worth the money and gametime he's taking from developing players? The answer in that case is probably not

[wixfjord]

Why get that person in before you know they're needed though? What if you brought in Snyman and gave him a big sack of cash for his trouble then Baird and Ryan proved to be plenty powerful? What then? All you've got is this lad who is a great player no doubt but is the extra quality he brings worth the money and gametime he's taking from developing players? The answer in that case is probably not

But nobody is saying we need to bring that person in in 2020!

It's just about pre-emptive planning and projecting forward to what might be needed. That's what good succession planning is about.

[wixfjord]

I don't think so, it may weigh less with Toner gone but it would be more powerful and athletic.

The power and athleticism in open play would be something to behold.

But what's less sure is whether that partnership would have enough in tight (scrum, maul). With neither man currently above 112/113kg it would be a light enough second row.

I'm sure Baird will put on bulk but again it might mean we need to get Dunne to pack on kgs to offer a more solid TH lock option.

[Workhorse]

But nobody is saying we need to bring that person in in 2020!

It's just about pre-emptive planning and projecting forward to what might be needed. That's what good succession planning is about.

You can't succession plan with something you don't have though. NIQ players are sought out when you need them you don't aim to need a NIQ in x number of years because they only come in when your first choice succession plan fails or is thrown up in the air.

[mildlyinterested]

I don't think so, it may weigh less with Toner gone but it would be more powerful and athletic.

The power and athleticism in open play would be something to behold.

But what's less sure is whether that partnership would have enough in tight (scrum, maul). With neither man currently above 112/113kg it would be a light enough second row.

I'm sure Baird will put on bulk but again it might mean we need to get Dunne to pack on kgs to offer a more solid TH lock option.

I'm sure the plan for Dunne and CRyan is for one of them to be an option at TH lock at the top level. Joe McCarthy certainly looked to have that potential too. In three years time all three will still be very young for a 2nd row, Dunne & Ryan being 24 and McCarthy 22.

Also i'd be surprised if JR didn't gain a few more kg's over the next few seasons.

[wixfjord]

McCarthy is a very interesting one. He's a guy who looks to have that natural raw physical ability.

[mildlyinterested]

McCarthy is a very interesting one. He's a guy who looks to have that natural raw physical ability.

doesn't have the height of the others but is certainly willing to put in a shift.

Dunne - 21, 6'8, 115kg
Ryan - 21, 6'7, 111kg
McCarthy - 19, 6'6, 108kg

[wixfjord]

But nobody is saying we need to bring that person in in 2020!

It's just about pre-emptive planning and projecting forward to what might be needed. That's what good succession planning is about.

You can't succession plan with something you don't have though. NIQ players are sought out when you need them you don't aim to need a NIQ in x number of years because they only come in when your first choice succession plan fails or is thrown up in the air.

I've no idea what you're saying here to be honest.

The idea of a succession plan is to figure out what resources you may need in the future and work towards that.

The point is we should (and the coaches likely are) be thinking now about whether the size/power of our 8 will be enough in 2/3 years time, and if not, figuring out options to overcome that. One of the options might be to bring guys through (not just in SR, but throughout the pack), another option would be to bring in a foreign player.